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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


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I'm ok with a full wipe, with core blueprints of only our own constructs, if possible. Some sort of reward for existing players would be nice, but not a deal breaker for me.

 

Thank you, NQ, for at least shedding some light on the discussion and considerations. More comms about it is always good.

Edited by Briggenti
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Hello Lads,

i´m a big builder myself, with 2 citys (30 and 90 L core) and streaming.

 

If it should come to a reboot (wipe), I would be for a complete wipe with concessions!
- 1. implement XL Static and Space cores (all ends have the same length!!!)
- 2. implement XL Atmo engines and Wings, revamping the area around the stabilizers
- 3. every existing player gets 10% of his talent points he had so far.

- 4. Blueprints are kept

 

Negotiable but indispensable in the future:
- 5. skin designs with color changes of the elements, like the avatar only related to almost all elements.

 

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Basically any form of wipe after telling us no for 2 years, and id walk away. I don't see any path of fair restitution for ripping out of my hands everything i worked for without using exploits or shady bullshit since beta start when NQ told us no further wipe. i didn't like schematics at first, but its a reasonable mechanic that i work well with for my usage/needs now and could be handled by throttling them like using industry skills. but taking away what I've built in 2 years, which with current systems would take nearly 3 years to replace. And honestly wiping to give a level playing field will only make a difference for a month at best, before the knowledgeable people are back in a position of power

 

I'm not unique in my opinion, and NQ will have to consider how many people will continue to play, or just give up and walk away because they were lied to. I backed in alpha so i haven't paid money monthly, but i would of been happy to of for all this time to aid in the games support. 

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There're several things to pick up on in this DevBlog/Post, but the one I'd like to most highlight (as I think it relates to the best solution) is:

 

 

Quote

 

Having a “legacy” live server and a new live server, where only the blueprints made before the new server opening would be transferred to the new live server.

 

Pros:

  • Could prevent any wipe with this solution while managing issues the dev team is trying to solve.

Cons:

  • Opens a number of new issues server-side.
  • Would split the Community.

 

Here "Would split the community" is only a temporary thing. Everyone who has proposed this as a possible solution has suggested that the split be created with new players (or those wanting to start anew) spawning in a new star system (including Haven), with the legacy server continuing in Helios, with no connection between the two systems. The temporary nature of the split is resolved after (say) 1 year, when players in both systems work to construct the "stargates" (or whatever mechanism NQ wishes to implement) to bring the two systems together, from which point everyone is on the same server again. (Or rather, they always were, but the start systems were not connected.)

This process could require lots of quanta/materials from Helios and the old players that have more than the new ones, and it creates a very big in game event with huge publicity.

 

The only down side here then, relates to the "number of new issues server-side", which we are not privvy to. But as we know multiple systems are intended anyway, this is a problem the dev team need to resolve at some point. And the benefits of doing so early (keeping all players very happy, including new ones, publicity etc) might outweight this effort.

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So from reading the options:

 

The no wipe is what I really want since I will certainly keep my stuff.

 

The full wipe sounds like the best option for the game based on how you word it. However, I would like to know more about keeping my blueprints and what are these methods to make recreate my creations quickly, before I commit to that as my personal opinion.

 

[Added: I would also be more committed to the full wipe if the talent points were kept since I have a talent queue of over 700 days at present and I am not doing anything fancy, so wiping them just seems unnecessary. Also how would you justify saying a months play time for the people who sub is actually a month and not a month of time when they are actually in game, since the argument for it being a monthly sub is based upon the fact the character is always active for the month gaining talent points? (No I do not have a sub since I am an Alpha backer)]

 

The dual servers option sounds like the safest option in terms of keeping all our things but also sounds like the most risky for things to go wrong. So not so sure about this one.

 

The partial wipe does nothing for me since I am not rich and not poor so the economy is not a factor for me in game. So I guess that is the only one I am not interested in see at all. (Especially when you consider you would need to find your taxes in the first 1 to 6 days for all your extra territories)

Edited by ADCOne
typo and the addition
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I agree with most people here, so I will just add to some points instead of writing everything in detail...

 

A very important question: What becomes of the thoramine? The Thoramin should not disappear under any circumstances. That there will be other ways to get to it later is okay, but the current one must not be disbanded. (Is that already discussed @NQ-Wanderer?)

 

Talent Points: These should be saved or if necessary reduced by the same percentage for all. It should not be the case that all players start with the same points. That would be more than unfair.

 

The beta was intended as a soft release and only partial wipes should take place if absolutely necessary. That was YOUR PROMISE, so if you break that promise and do a full reset, many will demand refunds. You cannot afford that financially.

 

Including blueprints from Alpha/Beta in the finished game was a promise from the beginning, so this should be fulfilled too.

 

I wonder what happened to my missing blueprints from the PreAlpha? There was the first space station built by players... 

 

So my conclusion: 

A partial wipe is possible. A full wipe is not. (Unless you want to kill DU)

 

Furthermore, I fully agree with Kurock.

 

 

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This Should Have happend short after beta was releashed.. Keep talents points and buildings people worked there But of for that...

 

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So, I'm in favor of a complete wipe for release.  We're getting closer to a good state and game loop (though not quite there yet).  

I do wish that paid-beta backers could be compensated for paying for a persistent world that wasn't.

 

Now my idea; There will always be new players coming in and massive wealth stockpiles.  People also like a fresh experience and not facing a giant, well established war machine.  We also got promised new solar systems and gates to travel between the two systems; I think combining the ideas would be neat.  A new solar system with a new Arkship that is disconnected from Alioth's solar system where players could elect to start a new character.  To 'link' the systems, both sides would need to construct gates; the 'old' system would be able to construct it fairly quickly, but the new system players would need to start from scratch and have some sort of hard time gate from several months to over a year(talents, infrastructure, build time, something).  Once the gates are built, the two solar systems are connected and everything syncs up (gates should be able to be destroyed, but that's just the nature of things).  This process could be repeated every couple of years whenever NQ decides to release new solar systems.

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I do not like the wait the option is presented, clearly NQ is using the "Remove Schematics" as the bait or carrot at the end of the stick, my question is simple why make us go threw the drill of reducing construction and limiting orgs and such, why make us go threw the drill of buying Schematics, why make us go threw the drill of terrain reset and the list goes on and on. Why did you decide to turn your early backers and supports into unpaid testers, better yet Testers that have to pay NQ to test your game. 

So my choices are loose everything Talents, Constructs, Quanta so a new player can do WHAT. Play the game like I did, no the can not I played for 2 years, so a new player should never be able to walk in the door and be equal to me simple because you "Release The Game". 

Did the NEW PLAYER pay you for 10 accounts for 2 years at 9.99 a month NO

Did the NEW PLAYER  have to learn how to use Schematics and now UNLEARN how to use Schematics NO

Did the NEW PLAYER spend hours DIGGING their base out of the dirt after a Terrian reset NO

Did the NEW PLAYER have to play with and countless Towers, Game Errors and Bugs and still played the game NO

 

Why the hell  Do you OWE this NEW PALYER anything when in fact YOU NQ owe US those that are here NOW, those that Play NOW, those that paid you NOW those that will come back when you screw us ONCE AGAIN for a pipe dream of the Magical NEW PLAYER that you cant seem to get to come to the game now but for some reason they will at RELEASE. So you Lied about Sancturary to I guess that the next statement that I am waiting to hear. Remember the lie Sanctuary will never be wipe and will always be save.

 

And for the record, you have no idea who, what or HOW MANY ....NEW PLAYERs you are going to get if any. If so Where are they NOW...

 

 

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I'm not against a wipe as long as we keep our blueprints and talent points.

 

Starting over is fine, but the time and money (paid accounts) that went into designing ships and training talents - not willing to start over on that. It just wouldn't be fun and it wouldn't be worth it - in time and money - to have to do that again.

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Grimm4532 I personally will be okay with a wipe so long as I'm able to keep 4 specific core blueprints which will consist of the entirety of the Spaceport I've been working on since I started I am a devout follower of the DU gods and I have faith that they will not forsake us older players

Edited by Grimm4532
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I would like to suggest option 5:


New solar system you can get to with a gate

 - Has its own currency 

 - Schematics are not needed there

But you can't take anything from one system to the other except blueprints.

 

Pro:

 - Long time builders keep there builds and factories

 - Money made from exploits has no influence in the new system

 - Community does not need to split: you can go back and forth between your old base and new ones

 - PVP  and planet PVP could be added there without having too much impact: for planet PVE you can stay in the current system

Con:
 - Needs some coding and (preferably) some new planets. Although a straight copy would work

 

So basically similar to option 3, but without having to split the community

 

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Removing schematics is a mistake in my opinion. They allow players and corps to specialize on industry and promotes commerce.

As an Alpha Backer I believe there must be a reward for the ppl whom choose to support the game financially (since 2016 in my case).

 

I would do the following:

 

  1. Keep all blueprints that don't have any elements that no longer exist.
  2. There must be a reward for those players that backed the game before release. They put their faith and money on the game and should get a talent point respec.
  3. Wipe all quanta and static, dynamic and space constructs.
  4. Full geometry reset on all planets and moons.
  5. Exclusion zones around all Aphelia owned tiles and static/space constructs to avoid repeating the same problems from the past. I would keep the center tile for the market/institution/etc and the 6 surrounding tiles dedicated to landing pads with teleports. No player construct should be allowed to enter the center tile.
  6. All accounts should go through the new FTUE.

I guess that's it.

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I don't really understand the need for a wipe, other then that NQ would like to clean up their database. The 'Pros' listed sound contrived to me.
 

Any permanent MMO where a wipe is needed to make it attractive to new players is doomed. Are you going to wipe every year then?
The challenge of an MMO is to make the game is such a way that a player can step in at any point.

 

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As the only real voxel game on the market, Dual Universe has a tight grasp on voxel builders.  As a voxelmancer prior to the new addition of voxel tools, I'll be here wipe or not.  As someone who comes from the survival genre game background where wipes are common I am used to regular wipes.  While I don't approve of regular wipes after release, I do feel that so much of DU has changed between when I started and today and will again at release.  I'm honestly tired of rebuilding to fit new rule sets. (wing stacking, brakes, gun sizes, etc.). That said I feel if there is a wipe I would be happy to continue playing with the following concessions;

 

1. Element sizing and hitboxes are set to their final size and placement rules (no more adjusting physical size, only tweaking balance)

2. NQ sets the "Launch" or "after wipe" the final rules they want for the game. No more "financial adjustments" (ie: core slot changes)

3. ANY player that logged into DU and paid for time DURING the beta be provided 3 months free time at launch and an increase from 90 talents/minute to 240/minute for the first 3 months. (This would both financially appease the 2 years of loss for me, and help to restore the game talents to a point where content can appear quickly)

4.  Minimum price SELL ORDERs are implemented in the game.  This will stabilize pricing and allow people from miners to industrialists to make profit along the way (unless they are silly about it)

 

As a builder with hundreds of constructs spread across several organizations, I don't care about constructs, I will just build a new place, with new ideas and new growth.  (personal opinions)

 

The largest pool of people that will be upset will be the industrialists, these people spent so much time managing their factories to get them operational that there is literally a hard sell for them to reset.  In order for them to re-establish themselves up to the tier they currently have reached in 2 years will take a shorter time without schematics due to the need to earn additional quanta and this overall is a positive, provided their profit margins are safe through "minimum sell order prices"

 

To the nay-sayers "If you wipe I'll quit" well it was a pleasure knowing many of you.  But lets be honest here, many people threatened to quit at literally every beta update NQ has had since launching the beta multiple years ago and yes many good friends of ours have moved on already.  With so many planned changes, and yes a big change in initial development plans, NQ has adjusted the game in good and bad ways. They followed their general goal and realized that they over-reached on some of them in a way that many people will not be satisfied with, but there was no point during the beta that NQ could wipe even if they wanted to and sustain a significant enough volume of beta testers to get to where we are today. 

 

Final thoughts

 

I'm PRO-full wipe, and have always been. I have billions of quanta in assets and I'm sitting on hundreds of millions of ore. My voxel box alone is worth at least a billion in the current economy.  I currently have more elements and voxel than I could ever hope to use on my own, and that is the primary reason I have orgmates.  Yes we are a small group that is dedicated to just having fun, but we have made connections and friendships in DU that we could not find elsewhere.  I'm sure many many of you are the same.  DU is about "community" and once you realize this as a player you start to enjoy yourself more.  From IC's fly ins to the DU-creator website, most of us just love being creative and showing stuff off to each other.  That is where the true magic of DU is.  This magic will NOT disappear with a wipe.  For those that remain after the wipe, you will get to see a new magical world evolve. For those that choose to depart, you will find something missing in your gaming life and wish/hope/pray for something to fill that niche.  This is what most EQ Next: Landmark players have felt, articulated and searched endlessly for, until DU arrived. 

 

Whatever NQ's choice is, I will remain a player. For those that leave. We will miss you.

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I would only take a wipe if i can keep 1 construckt

Maybe thats the idea =  Everyone gets 1 L core  no glitching elements   no items in container and ppl can place what ever they want on the 1 L core  ( eather space / static / dynamic) when its filld its filld  and NQ looks over it.  Done rest can be wiped :D

But i dont see a real reasion for a wipe unless its a server issue or a Update what NEED'S the wipe  because all these hours ppl build citys and  build the universe would get lost over months and ppl would need to do all things again....

Wipe anything you want  but lemme have my 1 ship XD idc about quanta or schematics i can redo it all but farming my ship up with all exotic items will take MONTHS ...

Anyways i wish NQ best of Luck to get this right or in a way to make all happy.

 

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Value NQ Team,
I know that you have put a lot of thought into this and still do. 
On the subject of wipe should be told to you, however, that I, like many others here, so far every month here damn much time and money left to have progress. 
A progress that every creator here whether experienced or not for all players available to have a content. 
If this content is gone, new people also lose the fun of discovering or the drive to be able to work out / afford something, saying we have an empty world. No ships / buildings, no help from experienced players. 
It would also be a slap in the face those who have so far "left the light on for DU" and continued to believe , albeit in the old, JC vision.
Content visionaries of LUA programmers are largely excluded from this.
I would really seriously resent it if my created content and associated time and money is stolen from me. That would hurt me personally also really. What did I pay money for month after month and dig up ores to have construction material ? Sorry but start again from 0 I will definitely not more.
I am aware that a community around a software title is evolving and will never be finished but dear NQ team and community don't throw away what you have created. At least try to grow from the failures and keep the good in the form of already created content of the COMMUNITY.
Since I personally have already partially taken a stand here, I would like to use the forum here to do this further.
Many pros and cons are understandable, but I must disagree in some points:

If WIPE must put in my opinion a 0 tolerance policy on the legs against Exploiting / griffing . Many past advantages of the players who have become so rich are based on this and have taken advantage of it clearly. 
 

Edited by McXerXes
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NQ I hope you will read this. Please do.

As for the first time ... NQ ... I'm really really really disappointed in you guys.
And this has nothing to do with the quality of the work you deliver to us. Please understand that. You have my respect for that.
 

BUT

 

The only reason why your blogpost has been structured like this and that this update, which isn't an update, has been postponed for so much time, is because you know what you want and you can't say it. You try to find ways around it, but in the end, you will execute on it, as you usually do ... 

 

NQ, you want a wipe. YES you want it .. just bloody admit it.

 

Don't act like there are options, as there aren't. Either you wipe or not, you know it, and you do not want to NOT wipe.

The whole post is structured to that end.

 

First of all, this hasn't been on the table since the start ... since the start the only thing which was on the table was a wipe IF (big if) there was a technical need for it (It has been stated like that in words, it has been in discord for anyone to see in text). I'm pretty sure if you explain me such a good reason I'm gonna understand it, likely sigh, but accept it. You knew if you had such a reason you would tell us.
On that premise you therefore kept people playing and investing in a game for which you needed those people playing that game. IF it had been on the table since the start, then it was a deliberate lie to keep us investing time. This is why I am disappointed, because you are essentially saying that you deceived me on purpose.

You act like a technical reason has now been found in removing schematics and improving certain planets. TBH those are non-reasons. They are excuses. You did burry half of the constructs in DU without a problem either. And, why would schematics be difficult to remove, it seems harder to introduce something like that than the other way around.

As a side note ... removing schematics as an argument for a wipe? Sounds like irony in the making. I hope you can see that.

So, NQ you want a wipe .. now tell me why?
Will you wipe again in 2 years? Do you think many of those old backers you mention that allegedly wanted a polished game will stick around, will be invested? This game has never kept people playing just because of polishing. It kept people playing because of a sense of building something towards something.
New players want to have a fair chance at release? So, in 2 years will new players have a fair chance, what about in 1 year? What about in 3 months? New players will never have a fair chance, instead now they will have a worse chance, noone is gonna hand out anything to ease their starters experience.

 

Nah .. you are right more people will try out the game believing they have a fair chance. But that will only work 3 months? At the most. Then, your wipe will have no longer an effect.

People requesting a wipe now, and not playing because they feel things are unfair, will stop playing again.

Now let me add some things you haven't explicitly considered:
* Many active players have their experiences in the game, and have not much more to explore or do, if there is no value for them in the game they might not restart.
* How many alts does one need when there is nothing around to manage. All active players likely will end up with fewer alts when the game starts. Many many of those alts are beta key accounts.
* Why haven't you considered wiping only certain elements, like ship elements, and industry elements, and money? Keep the voxels? If there is no money to buy something, will you trade voxels for elements?
* Why not considering inflation as a means to devaluate previous exploits. 
There are many good solutions ... including a snapshot of constructs before today as a wipe baseline.

But it doesn't matter .. I knew this was coming .. I was hoping it would not .. 
Great moment to reconsider things .. as you just announced ragnarok to me 😛.
 

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I think it is a great pity that my proposal at the time is not on the table.

You should let the game run without a wipe, because this is exactly what was promised to many, as well as the beta players should have already built a society and structures for the "new players". This approach is completely ignored here.

Back to the proposal:

A smaller solar system will be created that will be created for new players. This solar system is "hidden" in our solar system and only becomes "visible" when new and old players have assembled a huge dimension gate in their systems. (Community event) For this, a lot of material must be donated to NPC drop-off stations and there must be a great technological progress on both systems.

Once the gates are built on both solar systems, the new solar system will be visible in the old one. All players can then play together.

This way, the old players can leave their progress alone and continue building there, new players start fresh, so to speak, and later come to the point where they meet the old players.

On the subject of "Wipe".

A wipe would only make sense if it was a complete wipe. Everything from the beginning, no exceptions - because every exception is an unfair advantage - an advantage that you now want to destroy with a wipe.

Even blueprints would be an advantage for builders, because these "designers" get to keep their plans, while an industrialist or an asteroid collector goes away empty-handed.

By the way: The Quanta hardly play a role, because even with a wipe, there will be very rich and very poor players again after days-week-months. The problem is only reset and shifted in time.

So if a wipe is coming: please NQ be fair and tell us when it will come, that is, when do you plan to release the game? This year or next. If there is a wipe, I would pause my subscriptions accordingly, as it makes no sense for me to continue playing. Then I'll wait until the release....

 

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