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DEVBLOG: PVP IN ATHENA - discussion thread


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Good info, thanks for the devblog. But how exactly do the stasis weapons work? Do they decrease the max speed of the target by a flat amount? Or do they reduce engine/retro/adjustor thrust? Or do they increase the the effective mass of the ship, sort of like ships currently behave when approaching max speed? Does this affect the target's adjustor maneuverability?

 

EDIT: Also, could you give us the formula for the ship speed changes, so we can get some expectations of how fast ships might be?

Edited by TobiwanKenobi
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What does it mean, the 18 hours of lockdown? is it protected still or anyone can beat the construct?

When 18 hours finished, you can put on the shield again? Or after 18 hours you can attack and try to own the construct?

 

P.S. Can you may us be able to get ready for a massive offence, or to get ready for massive defense? Aka, if shield got broken, 150 hours later you can attack, and you have 60 min to own it, otherwise the shield rise up again?

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first things first:

 

this devblog was extremely underwhelming and had a bunch of information we already were aware of, please NQ, do better on not slapping us with no preparation on such major changes.

 

regardless, space shield gens sound cool, and i hope the plasma has a benefit to it for building cool things :)

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32 minutes ago, TobiwanKenobi said:

EDIT: Also, could you give us the formula for the ship speed changes, so we can get some expectations of how fast ships might be?

 

i think sadly we may have to figure this out IMO, would make sense to keep people guessing on this specific thing

 

but the other stuff, not so much

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Are Alien Core Unit resources limited?
What happens after lockdown ends? How soon new lockdown is available?

What is the difference between Space Mining Units and Relic Plasma Extractors?

What is that new resource for?

Do Alien Core Units split by tiers?

and so on...

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What will Space Mining Uniting generate and will they be affected by the location in space, meaning will a Space Mining Unit located in one location in space generate or Mine different resources that a similar to another Space Mining Unit in another location. If so what governs these variables.

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I'm not sure this is a devblog.. it's mostly a very generic description of what will be introduced at Athena and the only thing that is somewhat specific is the timer on shields..

 

 

Quote

Due to the issues raised with the Missions system and with the imbalance of construct sizes in PvP, we have altered the behavior around a construct’s maximum speed.

Which issues?

 

 

Quote

Notably, these shield generators do not have the feature to vent; instead, when they reach 60%, they will go into Lockdown.

 

When a construct enters Lockdown, a countdown timer will start (with a minimum of 18 hours) and the clock will tick down until a time specified when setting up a shield generator by the defenders. This timer will not be initially publicly disclosed, whereas anyone who is viewing the construct will be able to see the time remaining. Also, during this time, all weapons mounted and other elements will be locked out.

 

UPDATE: Not sure how I read minimum as maximum but the text does say minimum.. so let's see how this plays out. I removed my comments for now..

 

 

Then on the stasis weapon:

 

Quote

It is important to note that anyone who is being targeted by a Stasis Weapon, can also use one on their attacker! This allows for both offensive/defensive gameplay utilization.

This is NQ ticking the "we have provided ECM as defense" box.. How this would as a counter is entirely unclear though as it does not in anyway actually provide an out and still forced a non-combatant into PVP engagements. It is a nonsense argument.

 

 

On PVP voxel improvements

Quote

We improved performance when voxels are being destroyed. We have been working hard to identify the issue, and thanks to many player reports, we have been able to improve on this system.

So, what is the issue and how have you been able to improve the system?

 

 

And the banger:

Quote

It is our intention to change the current ‘meta’ behavior and ship design, which do not currently coincide with our vision for Dual Universe.

 

NQ: "play the way we want or we wil make you"

 

First off, so much for player driven content and gameplay. That seems to only apply as long as you play nicely with what NQ wants.

Second, would be nice if NQ actually shared their vision for Dual universe, not just for PVP but in general, as it would seem to me that it is entirely unclear what that vision is and frankly, I have to doubt that there is such vision.

 

 

 

 

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I'm actually pretty impressed at the update overall, looking forward to try it out on PTS though.

 

While I know some changes aren't very popular, specially the one where mass reduces max ship weight, I do see this will address the issue of mission exploiting while also incentivize building smaller/lighter ships for PVP instead of massive gun bricks with weapons spammed all over the place. Not that those can't be built, they can and will be built as siege weapons, sure, but they will also have their downsides, both in terms of not being able to catch up with small targets and also being vulnerable to smaller attack ships, basically we'll start seeing more classes of ships instead of "one L core fits all".

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On 3/29/2022 at 3:57 AM, NQ-Wanderer said:

We can wait to read your feedback on the new DEVBLOG: PVP IN ATHENA.

Yes, yes you can wait. Nothing we say matters, we're gonna get this shoved down our collective throats either way so why spend time reading our responses? 

 

'Doesn't meet our vision of Dual Universe' I'd really appreciate anyone within NQ taking 30 minutes to an hour to film a video or write a blog about the vision for Dual Universe going into and after launch...

 

With launch coming up and little to scant details on over-reaching game design implementations of features promised that won't make it to release. Pair that with features in Athena that were never promised... and it makes sense that the DU Community is at least owed a video explaining the vision of the game going forward... as it's clearly not the one people bought into.

 

Stop dancing around the elephants in the room NQ brought to the party, you're only harming your own product by staying silent.

 

Customers are owed an explanation. Rip the bandaid off, clean the wound, and let stuff heal. This festering infection that NQ created isn't gonna heal on its own. 

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-I am interested in seeing what the station-hardware does (and what the materials it produces are used for).

-Speed will still be an issue, a lot of the combat ships people are flying are already exceptionally light-weight for their core-size, (they'd be flying s-cores if weapons weren't capped). You'd probably get pvp to be more in line with what you desire it to be by capping speed to shield-size. Still, I suppose we'll see what you've got here.

 

-"Mission-Balance" for hauling missions will be a fiddly thing to manage so long as everyone can just look through the list, work out time-money value of a flight-path, and go after it repeatedly with the alts of their friends. Also, while it would annoy people, if you want to balance missions you may do better just saying "hey, we need to change the payout for balance-reasons". 

 

-There was something wrong with voxel?

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so... on top of warp-to-maxspeed pvp exploits now all those who don't enjoy lousy pew-pewing are basically a cattle that even cannot run?

 

Wasn't acceleration a way to penalise cargo? Now you effectively HAVE TO PVP if you want a clean flight. And with cargo and things you don't have agility or speed, so you just become prey. No second option.

 

So, the duality in the title is a reflection of promises of creative universe versus lousy reality of a bad take on space flight sim?.. Is not a surprise, obviously, with all the updates. But oh boy, can we finally hit the rock bottom or we will continue to dig for the pits of despair?

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1 hour ago, BlindingBright said:

'Doesn't meet our vision of Dual Universe' I'd really appreciate anyone within NQ taking 30 minutes to an hour to film a video or write a blog about the vision for Dual Universe going into and after launch...

 

It's more like "We have a vision but wil not tell you what it is as we're afraid you will call  us out when we deviate from it ourselves. That said, if you deviate from how we feel you should play this open world sandbox MMO where you can do anything you want and be anyone you want, we will manipulate and change the game and/or rules to force you to play by our rules."

Emergent gameplay FTW.. as long as it meets the vision of NQ

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I really hope, the Space Shield Generator will be working on Space Tiles, and not for each Space Constructs individually.

 

example:

Just Imagine a space station of 80 Space Cores, and for each of them to place and settle lockdown timer ........

As far as I remember, you mentioned about zoning the space, so, the generator should be covering a zone ( so all the cores may be covered with 1-2 shield )

 

Edited by m0rrtson
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Can you increate the max speed from thirty thousands to say 60k or 100k km/h?

 

I am really bored to settle a ship to 30k, and go clean my house, wash car, have a dinner and shower, and 5 hours later arrive to a planet to earn 8.5 mln quanta, for BEING AFK!!!

 

That is one of the boring parts of the game.

 

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43 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

It's more like "We have a vision but wil not tell you what it is as we're afraid you will call  us out when we deviate from it ourselves. That said, if you deviate from how we feel you should play this open world sandbox MMO where you can do anything you want and be anyone you want, we will manipulate and change the game and/or rules to force you to play by our rules."

Emergent gameplay FTW.. as long as it meets the vision of NQ

 

I'm assuming here that Nano L cores/Warships without voxels or ships with engines 50m away from the main body or ships are not in 'their vision' thus they are maybe thinking every ship should be viable and thus less on cross sections?

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4 hours ago, ELX987 said:

first things first:

 

this devblog was extremely underwhelming and had a bunch of information we already were aware of, please NQ, do better on not slapping us with no preparation on such major changes.

 

regardless, space shield gens sound cool, and i hope the plasma has a benefit to it for building cool things :)

At least they didn't mention a wipe this time. 😃

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4 hours ago, blazemonger said:

A max time of 18 hours is far too low. This timer is supposed to allow defenders to set the stage and determine when they will get attacked, it allows for them to ensure their defences are in place and players are available to engage in the fight. And for that, 18 hours is not even close to enough. It means that if you know the owner of the station is a UTC-4 you can initiate the attack by bringing down the shields at a time which does not suite them and/or force them to be up and ready at ungodly hours.

 

Yes, there needs to be a max limit to the timer...

They never said what the maximum time is - they should have. 18 hours is the minimum time (its in your quote from the devblog) and they didn't say what determined the actual time which would also be nice to know.

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3 hours ago, Honvik said:

I'm assuming here that Nano L cores/Warships without voxels or ships with engines 50m away from the main body or ships are not in 'their vision' thus they are maybe thinking every ship should be viable and thus less on cross sections?

I'd suspect the pvp issue is less with disjointed stuff (nobody will much care if you go protoss and build the golden armada), and more that people are using disjointed element-needles with battle-ship-shields and interceptor-speed. In all likeliness, this patch will just make it worse, as now people will want to cut weight even more. If their vision for combat is to have epic-looking battle-ships slugging it out in big slow broadsides while swarms of smaller craft dogfight in the middle, then they will need to come up with a reason to have skin on a ship, a reason to not just fly a needle for cross-section tank, a reason to not have the biggest defensive element in the game on anything and everything smaller than a battleship that still has the build-volume to accommodate it, and a reason once they have all of that to mix in more resource efficient fighter-craft without negating battleships entirely (again).

 

I suspect what we need isn't a quick change-the-numbers fix for pvp, but rather the inclusion of more complexity.

 

-Solar-panels to generate power or radiators to dissipate waste-heat can take up a good bit of space on a ship's exterior, potentially requiring designs to simply include additional geometry/cross-section to allow for the needed greater surface area.

 

-Power generation/storage equipment tends to be big, heavy, or both, and the added mass would help cut in to the acceleration of super-high-twr constructs.

 

-If they changed voxel so that instead of affecting your CCS it affected your shield (more voxel toughens your shield, still with the falloff curve) then people would use some voxel if they wanted more defense. If they put the falloff at different points for different core sizes then they could manipulate how much mass was optimal for defense and thus encourage different core-sizes to mean actual different ship sizes.

 

-Shield-modification elements (stuff that trades max hp for resistances for vent-time for vent-recovery-speed for e-war resistance) could add additional mass or space requirements that would slow and enlarge more defensively oriented ships.

 

-Shields eating in to the the top speed of the ship they are attached to would make people chose between heavy defense and high speed.

 

-E-war equipment, much like guns and armor, take up space and add mass.

 

 

So essentially, they want people to pvp with a variety of ships that look like actual ships. The problem is that we are gamers, and if you give us a simple problem with one right answer, we are going to go for that one right answer. To fix it the pvp game needs to be more complex, to make sure there isn't just one right answer. The stasis-gun is a step in the right direction, and the speed-alterations are an extra variable to account for (albeit likely a poorly thought out one), but odds are quite high that we will need more.

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The devblog is not detailed enough for us to have constructive comments.
 

So we'll see the patch note and what it really is.
 

You have this little sentence which is very interesting :

It is our intention to change the current ‘meta’ behavior and ship design, which do not currently coincide with our vision for Dual Universe. "

Over 6 months ago I did a full review of what you needed fixed in the last disastrous PvP update you provided.
We will see if you have learned NQ.

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After reading this DevBlog I am non-the-wiser on how any of these things work than I was before. Pretty much we have to go and try these things out and randomly experiment to even find out how they work or interact with other systems. Details matter, and if they aren't provided in DevBlogs, then what is the point of a DevBlog?

 

Please improve writing content.

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with such archaic game mechanics I have already met them eve  online, so I stopped playing them and now I will stop playing Dual Universe because I become similar to them

 

you put so much effort to make the game real to meet even the basic assumptions of physics

the speed of great ships in space is limited nothing of the speed is not the limit maximum speed is the speed of light and it matters as much to me as big as the object is heavy

I want to stop your ships with some weapon, this is unreal

the game had potential. But you guys are effectively destroying you

 

 

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