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NEW SCHEMATICS - Discussion Thread


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7 minutes ago, Cobqlt said:


If you read my message you will see that they can use the new consumable model of those schematic for create a lot of gameplay with them, by looting them in any activity/event/PVErandomthing.

Imo you have fun with some other mecanic but not selecting the schematic. Or you just feel satisfyied and it's not fun.

People just need to stop spit on an entire feature just because they are trigered, this feature can create some content/interaction SO JUST TRY TO IMPROVE IT. I'm a PVP player and we got plenty of gameplay deleted (repair/boarding/camping and co) I didn't saw ppl crying as actually for saved those gameplay, but when it's just for saved their goods even if it's a good change, they are here for cry.

 

Looking at your other replies, you may not understand the main issues here. The biggest issue is consumables are now a super premium. Some schematics take too long, may be a bit too expensive once a economy reset happens. The other big issue is there is no real removal of elements aside from PvP, which lets be real, its a REALLY small portion of the community that pvp regularly (whats left). Fixing the overflow of elements and what will eventually be a lack of fuel and warp cells is some of the core issues aside from server stability that needs to be looked at.

 

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Please change this schematics mechanic!  I absolutely love this game and it has captured more of my attention than any other game.  But, I cannot bear to play it now.  I was literally sitting there wondering what to do as I am a solo player.  Can't mine to make money, just need to wait for the miners so nothing for me to do.  Can''t try to build ships because I have no money....need to wait for the miners.  Cannot start industry with little ore I DO have because I have to wait days for the schems!  I am literally paying a monthly subscription to watch my game play itself.......  I have to take a step away for a while and hope NQ sees our response to this and makes some changes.  This really breaks my heart!!!

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"Remaking features in Dual Universe is never easy. Our time is limited, and our decisions on how to spend it directly impact the state and quality of the game. Remaking a feature means investing time into something that may not improve the game if we misfire. It also means risking making something worse, requiring even more time to fix later."

 

or........ you could mitigate a lot of your risk by hiring game designers with some common sense.

Entropy should have been fired years ago...

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I still have my reservations about the new system. However as always, I am willing to accept the changes and roll on forward.

 

With that said. I find it odd that my nano pack can produce a great many things that my machines cannot. As an example, I can produce Silumin and Steel in my nano pack scheme free... but a machine that cost me potentially hundreds of thousands of Quanta cannot?

I can produce Atmo fuel in my pack, but the most basic refined material in the game needed for the most basic transportation of persons requires a scheme in a Refinery?!?! Again, one that costs quanta to buy.

Additionally, as one player stated... I can que up 400 skills, but only 5 Schematics? Who thought that one up?

Schematics only make 1 batch!?!? This is going to be horrendously tedious going around filling up machines all the time for industrialists who make multiple items. The time sink alone will make play annoying as well as boring.

So, let's make some needed changes.

1. Let's start with the obvious. If my pack can make it surely these more advanced specialized to make items things should be able to as well. This alone will cut down on server needs, as less people will be making Schematics for the basic necessities.

2. Expand the que. A true industrialist will literally need several hundred Schematics a month with the current system. I understand the need to free up server-side resources, but you create this monster at least give us what we need to keep our systems going. Not nerf and kill every industrialist at once.

3. Allow people to decide how many runs (With a limit of course) the schematic will last for. So they can make 50 copies each one only lasting 1 run or 50 copies and each one works for 100 runs. The cost of course would scale with the number of runs a copy can use. Again, this would curtail Server-side needs as Schematics would be copied less by large scale industrialists, as well as increase a person's desire to play, as they will not spend a tedious number of hours filling an endless array of machines with an endless array of schematics, only to have to start again at the top of the line so they can make the desired number of products.

4. Lastly, while this idea after consideration and initial testing does not seems AS horrible as I 1st viewed it.  Its time consuming and ultimately going to push industrialists away from the game. A central point to load schematics is really now a need, each machine selecting and running the required schematic as needed, thereby allowing People to make what they need not constantly monitor the schematic levels in 50 machines, but in one place and load them as needed/wanted.

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If all you want is specialization from players, the actual simple solution to the problem is limiting the amount of factory units a player can own.

 

You can also limit the amount of factory units an org can own. And there you have it, the net effect is that organizations are now forced to specialize as well.

I realize this is heavy handed and ultimately you'll need to undo so many things you've already done, but that seems simple enough.

One may say that this gives power to people who have a bunch of alts. Well... we're already there, have been since before beta started. The whole talent system encourages that so there's more to be concerned about here.

Simple solution but effective, and there's so little to do in order to implement it (other than... undoing what has already been done of course).

 

Proposed numbers:

 

Each account has a max limit of 20 or 25 factory units. This is not a lot of factory units. It will force specialization just like you want it to without cumbersome and awfully tedious mechanics.

 

If an account is in an org, that account adds 8-10 factory units to the org limit. An account can create factory units under the org or under their own account and share their units with the org. The idea here is to have a push and pull between accounts contributing to the org pool but not excessively, they still will likely sacrifice their own account unit limit for the org. This will prevent orgs being bloated with big factory unit pools and it will also force orgs to specialize.

 

All in all, schematics don't make sense, They break immersion quite heavily (why would you buy them when it would be more practical to clone them... why is there only one schem for one production unit, etc...). They add immense tedium. They just don't make much sense on so many levels. You'd be better off with just limiting factory units per account.

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So what I like:

* Simplified the schematics. good. great. Was originally confused by the interface but now I get it.

* Called stuff by tier rather than the verbose name of basic, uncommon, advanced, rare, exotic.

* New notification are verbose and work well

* No more pointless warping around to get a schematic

* Prices are balanced well for now

* Sell orders were fixed

 

What could be better:

* Understanding what schematic can make what, and the odd ball sizes (such as small/medium containers, or medium adjustors). 

* Remove tier 1 products + honeycomb. This tier should be free.

* Make space all the same type.

* Make honeycomb easier to buy and sell. 

* Tools for orgs, such as a way to say what schematics are needed in what machine, or since these are data items a way to send them to the org. The whole point of this update was to make it more engaging for more players, yet I fail to see anything that has been done for larger orgs. Smaller orgs or alt-heavy players love this update... which is a sign that it isn't balanced. 

* Buffs for org-locations, such as a 15% uncommon schematic research speed bonus when your Feli, but 15% for an advanced schematic if your on Symeon (planets with out T1 ore). The org would set their home planet, and whenever your within 2 SU the bonus is applied. Some carrot needs to be added back to the game to drive stuff off of Alioth M6, otherwise this will continue to be the only used market. 

* When loading the schematic bank, having a filter to show what schematics can work in a machine would be soooo freaking cool.

 

What is terrible:

* Knowing that this update was coming today. And what's coming next. Please tell us when the release is going to happen... is it a month away, or is it a year away.

* What are we going to spend money on now... schematics are cheap, ore is cheap, and infinite. We need some RGN on mining units and astroids for this to not feel like a dull grind.

 

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4 hours ago, Jinxed said:

Have I come to the wrong place? This says "discussion" thread...How can it be a meaningful discussion without input from NQ?

Don't you find it ironic that the only aspect of the game that is 100% player driven is the forum?

 

Exactly... an update should be hyped, instead they drop these bombs and everyone freaks out at the change.... all because they want to keep us in the dark.

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This is just another example of over complicating things. I am 100% convinced now that the community has far superior game development common sense and understands things better than the devs. 

 

This new schematic system is for the very tiny percentage of hard core player groups while making it extremely difficult for solo and small groups.

 

Schematics should only be for the fully completed item, IE: Engines, Thrusters, Shields, AG, weapons, etc. 

 

All components should be a simple drop down for each machine and you could even add a small reasonable amount of currency over time as a means of "maintenance / upkeep". 

 

 

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image.png.3aa7ca0ad02567bfcd428f807e83c81f.png

I think the above comment from Deckard was in the context of "we have dates we have to hit" in the Q&A on schematics they sated "there is not enough time" for PTS. These are just facts and I am presuming they have chosen the most expedient option based on time. They know more that we do what is possible with the time and resources available. We are not qualified to comment on that, we simply do not know.

Now we can go on and on about what NQ should have done but that is not helpful at this stage. They spent a lot of dev time trying to make holes in the ground work, apparently we like holes in the ground, apparently that does not work. Lets move on.

What can we do? 

We can try to influence NQ to get as many QoL improvements in before release.

We need more slots (not more alts)

We need T1 product without schematics

We need ... 

These are small dials that NQ can do easily.

Lets focus on that

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4 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:

If all you want is specialization from players, the actual simple solution to the problem is limiting the amount of factory units a player can own.

 

You can also limit the amount of factory units an org can own. And there you have it, the net effect is that organizations are now forced to specialize as well.

I realize this is heavy handed and ultimately you'll need to undo so many things you've already done, but that seems simple enough.

One may say that this gives power to people who have a bunch of alts. Well... we're already there, have been since before beta started. The whole talent system encourages that so there's more to be concerned about here.

Simple solution but effective, and there's so little to do in order to implement it (other than... undoing what has already been done of course).

 

Proposed numbers:

 

Each account has a max limit of 20 or 25 factory units. This is not a lot of factory units. It will force specialization just like you want it to without cumbersome and awfully tedious mechanics.

 

If an account is in an org, that account adds 8-10 factory units to the org limit. An account can create factory units under the org or under their own account and share their units with the org. The idea here is to have a push and pull between accounts contributing to the org pool but not excessively, they still will likely sacrifice their own account unit limit for the org. This will prevent orgs being bloated with big factory unit pools and it will also force orgs to specialize.

 

All in all, schematics don't make sense, They break immersion quite heavily (why would you buy them when it would be more practical to clone them... why is there only one schem for one production unit, etc...). They add immense tedium. They just don't make much sense on so many levels. You'd be better off with just limiting factory units per account.


 

NQ just had better judgment than you and a better idea.
Instead of limiting the number of factories per player. We limit the number of crafts.

What does this change compared to your wobbly system?
It is that a player can sell to another his manufacturing rights.
It's still much more "smooth" than hard limitations of the number of factories.

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39 minutes ago, Palad1n said:

This is just another example of over complicating things. I am 100% convinced now that the community has far superior game development common sense and understands things better than the devs. 

 

This new schematic system is for the very tiny percentage of hard core player groups while making it extremely difficult for solo and small groups.

 

Schematics should only be for the fully completed item, IE: Engines, Thrusters, Shields, AG, weapons, etc. 

 

All components should be a simple drop down for each machine and you could even add a small reasonable amount of currency over time as a means of "maintenance / upkeep". 

 

 

On the contrary, small groups will now be able to do everything without having to spend millions of quanta in initial investment.

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11 hours ago, CyberDay said:

 

Looking at your other replies, you may not understand the main issues here. The biggest issue is consumables are now a super premium. Some schematics take too long, may be a bit too expensive once a economy reset happens. The other big issue is there is no real removal of elements aside from PvP, which lets be real, its a REALLY small portion of the community that pvp regularly (whats left). Fixing the overflow of elements and what will eventually be a lack of fuel and warp cells is some of the core issues aside from server stability that needs to be looked at.

 


I just have a totally opposite idea about the price of those schematics, a lot got a too low price (end game items for example) but yes, I totally agree about the problems about the overflow of elements.

 

just keep in mind that the wipe isn’t tomorrow, we will have more revamp/change before it and we just need to improve this one and keep send feedback to NQ about those important other change we need. Not just block this new feature because it’s not deployed in the right order.

 

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Seriously, how is no no one discussing this?

 

There's literally zero point in composite product schematics (brick/wood/carbon fiber).

 

Because there are no productivity talents for these materials (only the honeycomb they are used to make), factory refiners produce exactly the same amount of brick/wood/carbon fiber product as your nanopack. And it can't be improved. So, you can make the same amount of brick/wood/carbon fiber in your nanopack with no schematics OR spend 12,000 quanta per batch and wait 40 mins each to make schematics you don't need, to make it in a factory.

 

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4 minutes ago, Megabosslord said:

Seriously, how is no no one discussing this?

 

There's literally zero point in composite product schematics (brick/wood/carbon fiber).

 

Because there are no productivity talents for these materials (only the honey comb they are used to make), factory refiners produce exactly the same amount of brick/wood/carbon fiber product as your nanopack. So, you can make the same amount of brick/wood/carbon fiber in your nanopack with no schematics OR spend 12,000 quanta per batch and wait 40 mins each to make schematics you don't need, to make it in a factory.

 

Honestly? I've given up by now. I no longer have the energy to constantly argue with a wall, I no longer have the will to think about how to help the game, I'm running out of ideas about what could be improved, yet there were so many ideas written down here. I'm just exhausted and I don't see any will that NQ really wants to save the game. Savings have been made for months and years, and investment would help much more. I'll just wait and see what happens....

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Hello all, first time posting here. I have been playing DU for several years now, I weathered through the first industry changes when schematics were first introduced and despite the outcry then, the game survived. This new change however is very different. If the aim is to try to limit the use of industry to reduce server lag by making the cost of inputs so horribly expensive (time, price) that it becomes unviable, then this would not seem to be a good solution because it comes at the sacrifice of the fun factor. DU is game after all which is supposed to be fun. Nevertheless it would appear that without limiting the number of industry machines, server loads when the game is fully released won't be able to cope.

Perhaps there is another way to limit the number of industry machines? Mega factories have 1000s of machine units. The play style of most players is to seek independance and self sufficiency by scaling up production until it runs itself. Instead of scaling up by adding more machinery units however, what if an existing machine could be upgraded to become the equivalent of two machines or more, and so on. Instead of ten refineries making one type of T1 pure, one refinery could be "upgraded" along a progression path such that it can produce multiple items with selectable outputs with the productivity of multiple machines. Not only would setting up factories be easier for both new players and veterans, but much of the tedium of maintaining a factory is reduced giving players more time for the fun part, actually flying ships in space and interacting more with the space environment. This approach would reduce the number of machine units that a scaled up factory required by potentially 100-fold but would still require the same amount of resources and development as traditional factories.

Such a machinery upgrade system can then be fine tuned and give players something to work towards without arbitrarily having to introduce factors to artificially limit production.

Is this something that the developers could consider as an alternate approach please? Thanks for reading if you got this far.

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same overcomplicated ill advised changes from the same inexperienced dev crew......launch will be a flippin fiasco.

who was the idiot that didn't see copy batch size was important.........and copy times are ludicrous need to cut that by 50%......heads need to roll and you need experienced with mmo personnelle

 

vote with your wallet

 

let them deal with the stupidity they've

deployed

Edited by Maliciouss1
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4 hours ago, Palis Airuta said:

...think the above comment from Deckard was in the context of "we have dates we have to hit" in the Q&A on schematics they sated "there is not enough time" for PTS. These are just facts and I am presuming they have chosen the most expedient option based on time. They know more that we do what is possible with the time and resources available...

 

No, they rolled out schematics 1.5 years ago.

 

This idea that they "don't have the time" to fix a core mechanic that they've apparently known was broken for over a year and a half is just silly. 

 

This argument that NQ is constantly out of time is completely nonsense...compared to any other studio of similar size, a year and a half to make a rudimentary, simple change like this would be unthinkable. 

 

They're out of time either because the game doesn't have solid engineering and every tiny little change therefore takes an eternity, or because they have so few people working on DU (NQ is very clear that DU isn't their only project) it only has the bare minimum of development resources. 

 

5 hours ago, Palis Airuta said:

They spent a lot of dev time trying to make holes in the ground work, apparently we like holes in the ground, apparently that does not work. Lets move on.

 

They really didn't "spend a lot of dev time" on this. They refactored it away without any intermediate changes. No one forced them to bury ore so deep, and they never tried less performance-demanding techniques (of which there are many). 

 

Again, this plays into their love of false dichotomy: "we had to remove ore because it required too much infra" as if the only two options are "unsustainable" or "auto-miner" -- and that's not the case. 

 

Besides, the way professionals make software is to design and test for scale before you're months away from release...especially as an MMO, it's really puzzling that NQ keeps saying they are out of time as if they had no opportunity in the last 6+ years to understand how their design would scale.  

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I would like to be able to configurate the industry units even without any schematics available in the schematic bank. Of course the machine should not start to produce anything but be jammed because of missing schematics. So my org mates can come later and fill up the machine with the necessary schematics and then the machine will start produce as I configured it and with my talents.

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1 minute ago, Maliciouss1 said:

CAREFUL TOO....DO NOT MAKE MORE THEN ONE COPY AT SAME TIME OF A SCHEM.....THEY VANISH

 

I don't see the problem? I've copied several batches and got them all in my nanopack upon retrieve.

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7 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:


 

NQ just had better judgment than you and a better idea.
Instead of limiting the number of factories per player. We limit the number of crafts.

What does this change compared to your wobbly system?
It is that a player can sell to another his manufacturing rights.
It's still much more "smooth" than hard limitations of the number of factories.

Except for added crazy amount of tedium and nonsensical mechanics for "gameplay" reasons. If you had a hard limit on factories per account it would amount to the same thing you were alluding to: people would create manufacturing lines dedicated to only specific parts or very small production chains, actually forcing them to interact with other people and buy/share their production lines. The benefit there is any new person can come into the game without having to be burdened with the schematic system and its high costs for building anything worthwhile. Instead the player would have to make connections with people in order to buy the parts needed due to their dedicated production chains.

In some respects limiting production units per account is also a nonsensical mechanic for "gameplay" reasons, but arguably a more elegant and much simpler solution than a system that does not value your time at all.

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7 minutes ago, IvanGrozniy said:

Except for added crazy amount of tedium and nonsensical mechanics for "gameplay" reasons. If you had a hard limit on factories per account it would amount to the same thing you were alluding to: people would create manufacturing lines dedicated to only specific parts or very small production chains, actually forcing them to interact with other people and buy/share their production lines. The benefit there is any new person can come into the game without having to be burdened with the schematic system and its high costs for building anything worthwhile. Instead the player would have to make connections with people in order to buy the parts needed due to their dedicated production chains.

In some respects limiting production units per account is also a nonsensical mechanic for "gameplay" reasons, but arguably a more elegant and much simpler solution than a system that does not value your time at all.

Limiting the factories per player would be a bit forcing each player to have their own factory running, otherwise the game will say "oh look, your factory isn't running, you lose!"

And the game is already full enough with quotas quotient mining unit and other stuff...

The version looks much better.

Ok you want to produce 6 billion items? And well assume puts in the market buy orders for the necessary schematics, takes out your quantas.
The player is therefore not blocked, he can use the share of others.

Then we don't have the time/skill/possibility visual left by the game.
If this solution takes 2 weeks to make compared to another that takes 12 then the 2 week solution is much better.

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