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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


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Should there be a wipe now, how will regular players from the alpha/beta then launch into the game at release? So will the area on Sanctuary remain (with or without constructs) or will you have to set a new area? So if the moon area unit has to be re-set, is it tied to Sanctuary or will you be allowed to start on the "new" moon there as well?

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Oh hi again.

I honestly believe a full wipe will benefit almost everyone who is on stand-by, reading and not playing.  I do believe some players will be pissed if they wipe everything.

Our main concern should be: "What NQ can do so we have 1k+, 5k+, 10K+ players in DU after release?". What you have atm in game can be translated in Know-How. The info you have is there and wont be lost. No matter what everyone can say, post release Legacy Blueprints (from this version) can be an asset which can be sold post-wipe for income (and some will think its not fair).

A full wipe its the best option imho.

Another important question is:

Why should i play DU? What kind of game post-release DU wants to be? We will create again cities and ships and fight with nobody for months? Do we create Second Life environments and spend time there? Whats the high risk - high reward stuff DU has atm and will have post release? Afaik no planetary base/city raids, full safe zone in space, etc.


 

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5 hours ago, Cergorach said:

If you think that, you're foolish!

 

It has had huge impacts on players, from market pvp, to actual pvp, etc. It's just not directly visible. The moment those players interact with players or stop interacting with players it can have an impact. The scope of misuse of some of the exploits was massive. It might be mitigated by the possibility that many of the people that misused the exploits left the game a while back...

 

Even legitimate game loops that where poorly thought out like the missioning system or the huge (returning) NPC orders devalued the quanta enormously. The Meganode mechanic created huge stocks of ore that weren't sold, with the introduction of autominers the potential of that was hugely underestimated by both devs and players. We now have very cheap ore. Quanta and ore value have a huge impact on the average player (either positively or negatively).

 

I also think that people overestimate and underestimate the effect a wipe will have on them. I suspect that the players complaining the loudest will have the hardest time after an ore/construct/quanta wipe, and the folks that are already space rich will have get even richer faster. While the missioning system will change after the patch/wipe, it can still be very heavily used to earn quanta. The automining system has had no changes, beyond limiting core counts (limiting the amount of mining locations you can exploit), but it's still very overpowered if you know what you're doing and are dedicated...

 

Everything changes, it all stays the same...

Do you even play the game? I ask because I have played consistently since beta started. I play solo. I am not rich and I have what I need and it took me a while to get where I am.  I have seen no impact from super rich. I see a slow market with reasonable prices (now that the ore inflation is over). 

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6 minutes ago, Elitez said:

Our main concern should be: "What NQ can do so we have 1k+, 5k+, 10K+ players in DU after release?"

 

10,000 subs won't be enough to do anything. That's less than $100,000 a month in revenue for a company with two offices (in expensive locations) and 30+ employees...For reference, 30 people at $40,000 a year salary is already $100k a month. 

 

I think they have more than 30 employees...and regardless, their staff is likely making much more considering their office locations and the expense of good engineering talent. 

 

So...it isn't a stretch to suggest they need 10x that amount depending on their margins after ad costs and staff/server/office overhead. 

 

And in that context....I don't think anyone here has any idea of how NQ can earn and maintain 100,000 subscribers...wipe or no, that's going to be a struggle. 

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1 minute ago, Doombad said:

Do you okay the game? I ask because I have played consistently since beta started. I play solo. I am not rich but I have what I need and it took me a while to get where I am.  I have seen no impact from super rich. I see a slow market with reasonable prices (now that the ore inflation is over). 

Are you one of those people that, if they don't see it, it doesn't exist? You work in a nuclear reactor without any protection because you don't see the radiation?

 

The 'reasonable prices' and the 'ore inflation is over' is a direct impact of the 'super rich' (in ore and quanta).

 

Example:

Let's see, if after the wipe I can produce 5+ million ore per week, that would pretty much flood the market when there's not much quanta in the economy. When I mission 100+ million in quanta per week, I have way more quanta then the regular DU player who is struggling to mine enough ore to make his starting stuff. You can easily control the ore market and with that, a lot of the element market. How exactly would you compete with me? So producing stuff would not be very profitable, if at all. You build a couple of containers to sell, I race you to the bottom with a 100 fold of your items, when we reach the bottom I buy your stock with all the quanta I have and reset my prices high again...

 

Now imagine being one of the first corps to get your hands on the first DU weapons, you can control most asteroids, alien resource nodes, and probably the space routes. There goes all the asteroid mining outside of the safe zone (higher end ore), missioning outside safe zone becomes dangerous, etc. Being the first to Warpdrives and warp beacons, the first to alien resource points, etc. You don't see it, but it has a big impact on the game.

 

Your first issue will be that things aren't as cheap anymore as you're used to. Some stuff might not even be available or in a price range you can afford the next year or so. Things like warpdrives... Good slowboating to another planet, especially if it's outside the safezone...

 

 

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In the event that a wipe is deemed necessary, and it is within NQ's power, I suggest they also publish the "DU Beta Leaderboards". Include interesting statistics like total quanta, constructs, transactions, kills, distance traveled, time played, etc. Such a leaderboard would serve as partial compensation to our most dedicated beta testers in the form of public renown/notoriety. It would also be an effective PR tool to generate additional hype for release. Many new and old players would see these leaderboards and be inspired to take part in the next wave of healthy/bloody competition. 

 

What do you guys think? Is renown an effective form of compensation for time spent playing/testing DU?

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Aren't those "invalid exploity" stats? Would be super ironic to put the guys "who ruined it for everyone" (...) on a pedestal, and just erase to never see or care again of anything regular players did. And a leaderboard, like for seasons, in a sandbox just... Everytime I read something that is super out of touch to the people who actually played, maybe still are playing, I can't help myself to get bitter and wish for their desires to be fullfilled in the worst possible ways. There are obvious problems with that though, let's just say realistically even if I halfass my efforts after a wipe, because I'm spiteful, two years of patiently managing a reduced number of MU down the line I'm the one getting my orders of magnitude bigger efforts wiped for another season when our champs show up for another round of complaining. Let's just skip to the end of the slippery slope and call 'em seasons... yeeeeaaah this makes me so happy.
 

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2 hours ago, Cergorach said:

Are you one of those people that, if they don't see it, it doesn't exist? You work in a nuclear reactor without any protection because you don't see the radiation?

 

The 'reasonable prices' and the 'ore inflation is over' is a direct impact of the 'super rich' (in ore and quanta).

 

Example:

Let's see, if after the wipe I can produce 5+ million ore per week, that would pretty much flood the market when there's not much quanta in the economy. When I mission 100+ million in quanta per week, I have way more quanta then the regular DU player who is struggling to mine enough ore to make his starting stuff. You can easily control the ore market and with that, a lot of the element market. How exactly would you compete with me? So producing stuff would not be very profitable, if at all. You build a couple of containers to sell, I race you to the bottom with a 100 fold of your items, when we reach the bottom I buy your stock with all the quanta I have and reset my prices high again...

 

Now imagine being one of the first corps to get your hands on the first DU weapons, you can control most asteroids, alien resource nodes, and probably the space routes. There goes all the asteroid mining outside of the safe zone (higher end ore), missioning outside safe zone becomes dangerous, etc. Being the first to Warpdrives and warp beacons, the first to alien resource points, etc. You don't see it, but it has a big impact on the game.

 

Your first issue will be that things aren't as cheap anymore as you're used to. Some stuff might not even be available or in a price range you can afford the next year or so. Things like warpdrives... Good slowboating to another planet, especially if it's outside the safezone...

 

 

Things are CHEAPER than what they were during the period of ore inflation.

 

Your last paragraph is why people don’t want the wipe.

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Yup. Back at beta-release I was able to put in 16h a day, quickly get on my feet, and rush out there to a least get a few scoops of every ore before it becomes unsafe. After that I became terrified and never ventured out of the safezone again. Like I'm going to risk days of grind to some greasy tryhard nope nope nope lol, call me carebear all you want, I just value my time more than money, one is replacable, the other isn't.

After a wipe there won't even be those opportunities. Like I could ever get an exotic MU and some use out of it, solo, before someone stalks me down, which is way easier to do when one know where I'm taking off from...


I'm allready completly resolved to the idea of being restrained to T1-T2 ore after wipe. Not eager to find out just how much of that frustration (knowing all the items I never tried because of schematics, and never will try because of brave new world) I'm going to give myself before admitting to myself the game is just not for me... probably way too much. The issue is I still actually want to play the game DU was supposed to be -.-... maybe not super actively, maybe not now on the spot, but I was fine to log in everyday and do a little micromanaging in order to be able to go super hard, the day I really want to create design and invent. I'm not sure I've EVER shown so much patience for anything in my life. pfff 😟

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47 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

Yup. Back at beta-release I was able to put in 16h a day, quickly get on my feet, and rush out there to a least get a few scoops of every ore before it becomes unsafe. After that I became terrified and never ventured out of the safezone again. Like I'm going to risk days of grind to some greasy tryhard nope nope nope lol, call me carebear all you want, I just value my time more than money, one is replacable, the other isn't.

After a wipe there won't even be those opportunities. Like I could ever get an exotic MU and some use out of it, solo, before someone stalks me down, which is way easier to do when one know where I'm taking off from...


I'm allready completly resolved to the idea of being restrained to T1-T2 ore after wipe. Not eager to find out just how much of that frustration (knowing all the items I never tried because of schematics, and never will try because of brave new world) I'm going to give myself before admitting to myself the game is just not for me... probably way too much. The issue is I still actually want to play the game DU was supposed to be -.-... maybe not super actively, maybe not now on the spot, but I was fine to log in everyday and do a little micromanaging in order to be able to go super hard, the day I really want to create design and invent. I'm not sure I've EVER shown so much patience for anything in my life. pfff 😟

You confuse me. I have t1-t5 fields, split between the planets. You can warp to the planets and never be in any risk? Everything is cheap, flying in pvp zone has almost no risk once you have fields up because you can plop out a new ship...

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

Aren't those "invalid exploity" stats? Would be super ironic to put the guys "who ruined it for everyone" (...) on a pedestal, and just erase to never see or care again of anything regular players did.

It is hard to distinguish between those who put in genuine effort, those that took advantage of unbalanced features, and those who outright exploited. Consequently, we can't compensate regular players without also including those "who ruined it for everyone". This is in part why I propose this more indirect method. The DU community itself gets to interpret the stats and judge however they see fit. The ones who once again rise to the top will cement their reputation and have their efforts acknowledged.

 

Also I am not advocating for something like "seasons", this is purely for historic purposes.

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idk, what ore I mine, if I don't craft stuff from it, I stockpile it, I finance my tiles through missions, but only in safezone, so I don't have a lot of overhead, which I'm putting aside to get all the advanced schematics i wanted to buy... I'm a slug, like an overly possessive greedy slug with no ambition


When I joined the alpha I tried a lot of stuff, the double wipe utterly killed my ambitions, that shortlived server before the launch was so lame, I played way too hard and in the end something came up IRL and I didn't even get to try weapons on the last weekend, nothing to show for but a stupid stockpile of ore. Then, honestly I kinda forced myself at launch to stockpile stuff, utterly burning myself out from the game, I went at it even harder, this time it was supposed to be for real. Burned out to the point that I'm not even revising my strategies anymore, whenever I have energy to spare on the game I accumulate stuff in case I actually want to play some day, I just know I don't like using t3-t5 because I can't provide them with my robotical daily logins, don't have the schematics nor the talents yet, and I don't want to spend money I could be spending on schematics.


Ugh what am I even doing here. I hate starting over in this game, I've done it too often in too short'a'time, and I suck at/ don't know how to/ detest to ask for help. All the people I tried to lure into the game with my keys went from quickly desinterested, to total disaster one has to throw out of their rdms.

How exactly am I going to half-ass this in a way that reflects how I feel without totally giving up? Daily-login quanta until I have 4 MU... then I might as well sell ore for a while, until I have a scanner a claim, because F* picking up stones and micromanaging the nanopack to get industry quickly, only to be stuck on schematics, AND ALSO F REMOVING SCHEMATICS IF THATS THE MOVE NOW HONESTLY IN A PARANOID AND EGOCENTRIC FRAME OF MIND IT SEEMS LIKE THE GOAL OF THIS GAME IS [filtered] ME INTO THE ROLE OF A MINING SLAVE NO FUN FOR YOU SHOULD HAVE LOOKED AFTER SOME SPACEWRECK DAY1 LOOSER

hehe how depressing I shoud cut my losses just go play another spacegame.

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This is a really interesting topic for me since I feel I am quite rich in the game. 

 

I would not mind restarting if it meant the game would be fun, but I feel like the devs have not exactly mastered the game-play loop to make it so fun as to want to do the boring grind to regain my lost wealth.  

 

I think devs should first master the game play loop, worry about wipes later when the game is good and inequality is all that remains as an issue.

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11 hours ago, Elitez said:

I honestly believe a full wipe will benefit almost everyone who is on stand-by, reading and not playing. 
 

 

The sooner they announce a wipe, the sooner i can totally concentrate on another game with more trustworthy developers. In case they decide not to wipe my accounts are on standby since 2 weeks, only logged in today to check if one of the patch-bugs hit my accounts.
Automatic payment is off, tiles are paid for 3 month - let's see what happens.

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In my opinion, the best solution would be to launch a second server and give older players a temporary free pass to build up some basics on the new server while they can still unleash their full creativity on the original server. In time, NQ could gradually reduce the support on the old server, launch new features only on the new server, in order to motivate veterans to move over to the new server.

 

As an alternative: A full wipe on the original server, but with some kind of booster given to the older players to temporarily speed up the skill learning. After all, many have paid to play for a long time, and they don't like their skills being reset without having any benefit from their investment (with time and money).

 

I also want to add, as an alternative for schematics, the way they solve this in other games: science research.  Unlock schematics by investing time and resources in research. Make it a research tree. Buying schematics was the worst possible thing.

Edited by 4ntw3rp
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19 hours ago, trytryagain said:

 

And in that context....I don't think anyone here has any idea of how NQ can earn and maintain 100,000 subscribers...wipe or no, that's going to be a struggle. 

By encouraging the use of alts/multiple subscriptions and creating a market to buy and sell game time/DAC.

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19 hours ago, Msoul said:Consequently, we can't compensate regular players without also including those "who ruined it for everyone". This is in part why I propose this more indirect method. The DU community itself gets to interpret the stats and judge however they see fit. The ones who once again rise to the top will cement their reputation and have their efforts acknowledged.

Who did they ruin what for? 

leaderboards in a sandbox game? 
 

People have different goals in this game but it’s really not a competitive game. I dont need my sandcastle ranked, I just don’t want it kicked over.

 

moreover, there will still be people who beat other people to this or that goal, and potentially end up in control of it. Actually  I think it will be worse because only the people who can put together the resources, whether they are unemployed or can afford 20 accounts, or are members of a big org, will have access first. Without a construct wipe things like warp engines will be available to basically everyone. I’m not arguing against a wipe at this point, I just wanted to point out the huge hole in your reasoning.

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3 hours ago, Cergorach said:

Are you one of those people that, if they don't see it, it doesn't exist? You work in a nuclear reactor without any protection because you don't see the radiation?

 

The 'reasonable prices' and the 'ore inflation is over' is a direct impact of the 'super rich' (in ore and quanta).

 

Example:

Let's see, if after the wipe I can produce 5+ million ore per week, that would pretty much flood the market when there's not much quanta in the economy. When I mission 100+ million in quanta per week, I have way more quanta then the regular DU player who is struggling to mine enough ore to make his starting stuff. You can easily control the ore market and with that, a lot of the element market. How exactly would you compete with me? So producing stuff would not be very profitable, if at all. You build a couple of containers to sell, I race you to the bottom with a 100 fold of your items, when we reach the bottom I buy your stock with all the quanta I have and reset my prices high again...

 

Now imagine being one of the first corps to get your hands on the first DU weapons, you can control most asteroids, alien resource nodes, and probably the space routes. There goes all the asteroid mining outside of the safe zone (higher end ore), missioning outside safe zone becomes dangerous, etc. Being the first to Warpdrives and warp beacons, the first to alien resource points, etc. You don't see it, but it has a big impact on the game.

 

Your first issue will be that things aren't as cheap anymore as you're used to. Some stuff might not even be available or in a price range you can afford the next year or so. Things like warpdrives... Good slowboating to another planet, especially if it's outside the safezone...

 

 

Your assuming that only one person is doing missions. There will be multiple(5+) orgs that are unrelated/not on good terms with each other doing this sprint. People already tried the "evil space empire holding everything" thing, it gets REALLY boring REALLY fast because eventually no one cares. There is no "bonus" or giant gain from pvp. Sure plasma exists, but if we are going to be real, no one but the 1% that actually pvp really care for exotics. Sure people will want beacons, but supply of plasma is more likely to be way over exceed the demand. No one buys anything off the market because our ore requirements are filled by our own autominer fields. If the dude next to me has 100 warp beacon schematics, honestly, it has 0 effect on me. I bought 1 at full price and between me and some friends, we make enough for our network. We go out and shoot at people. I throw ore at people because my autominers containers fill up. There is no consumption. That is the issue, not some evil top 1% wanting to keep the people down. There is no end game loop. Wiping only pushes the issue back a few months, that's it. Until they have a loop that can hold people's attention and not totally rely on player made "content" that now we cant be sure is ever safe, they won't succeed.

 

Everyone's goals are different, some people don't care if someone has 100 warp beacons in deep space so they can be anywhere. Its a sandbox, there is no real "end game". Your goals are what you set for yourself. Kinda sucks in a way though because there is no real bite to stay for anyone but creatives, and most of them would rather play something that give them the resources they want to use, although some do like the "survival" type of games as well. 

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5 minutes ago, CyberDay said:

Your assuming that only one person is doing missions. There will be multiple(5+) orgs that are unrelated/not on good terms with each other doing this sprint. People already tried the "evil space empire holding everything" thing, it gets REALLY boring REALLY fast because eventually no one cares. There is no "bonus" or giant gain from pvp. Sure plasma exists, but if we are going to be real, no one but the 1% that actually pvp really care for exotics. Sure people will want beacons, but supply of plasma is more likely to be way over exceed the demand. No one buys anything off the market because our ore requirements are filled by our own autominer fields. If the dude next to me has 100 warp beacon schematics, honestly, it has 0 effect on me. I bought 1 at full price and between me and some friends, we make enough for our network. We go out and shoot at people. I throw ore at people because my autominers containers fill up. There is no consumption. That is the issue, not some evil top 1% wanting to keep the people down. There is no end game loop. Wiping only pushes the issue back a few months, that's it. Until they have a loop that can hold people's attention and not totally rely on player made "content" that now we cant be sure is ever safe, they won't succeed.

 

Everyone's goals are different, some people don't care if someone has 100 warp beacons in deep space so they can be anywhere. Its a sandbox, there is no real "end game". Your goals are what you set for yourself. Kinda sucks in a way though because there is no real bite to stay for anyone but creatives, and most of them would rather play something that give them the resources they want to use, although some do like the "survival" type of games as well. 

In a way, keeping what the creatives have built provides the infrastructure for which PvP'ers can leverage when PvP comes to bear in game. Wiping it out pushes everything out. 

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I am pretty sure I'm the kind of player NQ wants "back". I poured stupid amounts of time into the game, was in an org, built a massive factory, etc etc. I was even happy with schematics. I also supported a full wipe of the game. I stopped playing when most of my org stopped a few months after 0.23 out of frustration with the grind and soul sapping tedium of making any good sized build. I also couldn't believe how brain dead the implementation of missions was that I couldn't put something in a box, have it delivered and someone get payed without me online. I stopped in to check out the auto mining update only to discover they botched that all the hell and back with taxes.

 

So many core systems in this game need to have a real game designer overhaul the entire game design doc, full-wipe or no, DU is a failed project that will never reach critical mass of players. DU tried to do to many different game types at once, Sand-box, MMO, PvP, Strategy, Simulation, FPS, Industry, Building. The only one it pulled off at all was the creative building and as my org mates discovered, creatively building stuff "just for the sake of it" can only hold your attention so long. The other genre's it tried to do were all shambled together without a cohesive plan and design on how the system interact with each other and feed off or lead players into each other. Leading to a bunch of a half implemented "ideas" that play more like a tour some kid gamers wish list then a cohesive singular game experience. 

 

Add to all this the game universe of DU is WAY to big for the pittance of players it has. It's a niche game, and the game world size should reflect that. Now they are trying to throw in a few of the 'good' ideas the community has been clamoring for in a hopes that 'release' will somehow bring back the initial rush. Good Luck. Like seriously? It took you this long to understand bots in the markets were a bad idea?

 

The sad reality is DU would need to be overhauled at such a core level it would probably take 3 more years to even approach a state that would be full wipe->release ready. Could I sit here and write out a game design doc that would work better and a path for DU to get there? Sure, but why would I bother? NQ has proven time and time again they are so stuck in a quagmire the best they can manage is to think or hear an idea and then just throw it at the wall at hopes it improves rather then hurts gameplay.

 

This ship has no Captain. After it fails, perhaps some entity with money and real game design chops can buy the IP, put it behind the curtain for 3 years. Then, overhaul the core systems and release it under a different name, with an actual idea of how all these system are supposed to work together, and make the real game we have all waited for. I mean for heaven sakes people, we still have ship construction/operation mechanics I could design better on the back of a napkin, and ships are the core of the game!

 

 

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On 4/22/2022 at 6:42 PM, NQ-Nyota said:

 

Hey everyone!

 

We wanted to let everyone know that the internal discussions are still ongoing. We have been reading your feedback (all of it - really!), and we wanted to express our sincere thanks to everyone for joining in the discussion.

 

We have also been gathering your questions (please continue asking them if they haven't already been asked in this thread) and we'll do our best to have some answers for you as soon as we can.

 

Thanks again, we really do appreciate all of the feedback. ❤️


Tomorrow another week will have passed, is there any news in the meantime? Could we have a short update on the state of affairs every Friday, i.e. once a week?

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I really just don’t understand why miners and industry territory beacons, weapons AGGs, warp beacons don’t require fuel to run. 
They are perpetual engines. 
 

even NMS has better fuel and power management gameplay than this game, and that’s a casual minecraft like game. 

imagine if it actually required copious amounts of energy to keep everything running. Balanced correctly that would keep things in check far more than stupid taxes and keep consumption rates high. 
 

element maintenance requiring bolts, pipes and chambers etc should obviously be a thing. Every x hours a component on your ship needs one or more of the parts it’s made from replacing.  Leaving it unmaintained would cause it to degrade and eventually need replacing. 

 

the gameplay could be simple like repairing but instead of just scrap, it needs the actual parts in your active container.
 

Or it could be more involved like swapping the parts with working parts (using a new swap tool) and taking the broken parts to a dedicated service station 

even these alone would ensure greater need for parts and services. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jinxed said:

I really just don’t understand why miners and industry territory beacons, weapons AGGs, warp beacons don’t require fuel to run. 
They are perpetual engines.

They require energy, energy can be easily provided via solarpower or fission/fusion power. I wouldn't mind adding in that gameplay loop, but fuel for anything else besides engines would be foolish imho. NQ was talking about a power mechanic, but yeah...

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4 hours ago, Jinxed said:

imagine if it actually required copious amounts of energy to keep everything running. Balanced correctly that would keep things in check far more than stupid taxes and keep consumption rates high. 

 

When they get rid of Schematics, energy distribution of some sort needs to be implemented anyways, not just for the drills but also for the Industry. We'll face a lot of "pending operations" otherwise.

 

I like the idea to get rid of the taxes and use the old system but get a money sink because of the fuel for the drills.

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