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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


NQ-Wanderer
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I am playing mmos the last 20 years and is the first time that I see that there own developers stop the motivation from players to play their own game... 

This is something that you announce that you actually give a deadline when it will happen to let the ppl know what to do. 

From my opinion a wipe it must be almost full {except blueprints} or nothing. We know that the technology you have now is more advanced and is impossible to implement it to the old structure of the existing current state of the game and you like to revamp everything that is good for me and this it will help some new players join the game BUT there is a catch here this it will be the 10% - 15% that it will come I am sure of it there are new games in the horizon that is coming out 2022+ unreal engine 5 to all kind of genre. 

 

The worst thing is that with a full wipe you are gonna loose the rest 40% of the current player base and the 10% of the alt account they have beacuse they will lose all the hard work time and money they invested for those years and the trust they have to you....

 

Most of the new games that they are coming out they go to alpha - beta stage for some months maximum and they wipe - release Not alpha from 2016...

 

I prefer a full wipe myself but at least we keep the Blueprints even the static BP and stuff so we will not loose it all and make in this update a Limit to ships to thrust - engines - weapons - elements per core idk make them all equal so your target will be almost the same for builders and and this will bring better designs not big squares with a lot of engines... it will bring balance to the game. 

 

Please let us know what is going to happen fast beacuse you are losing players and you will end up with the 10% from the old ones and 15% with new - old backers. That the new is nothing they will play little and they are gone like it happen to new world - lost ark etc they start 1 million and they end up with 100k

 

Idk if you can afford to have 25 % population to maintain this game or shut it down like is a happening to a lot of new games the last years. 

 

 

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My 2c:

 

I do not want a wipe, cause I have built a lot of stuff that I will likely not be bothered to rebuild. HOWEVER, there needs to be a wipe for the longevity of the game. Basically there isn't a lot to do anymore in game because the universe fully matured very quickly.

 

So, with that said, I believe some things need to happen before a wipe which is partly linked to why they want to wipe.


Schematics - In their current form are bad. They're just an artificial block on stuff, however I think they should be incorporated in a way that will enhance the game. So my idea:

 

1. T1 has no schematics, let everyone get that

2. Higher tiers of stuff needs some kind of gate, whether that's schematics or whatever, I don't know, but it needs something so that the universe has to progress over time

3. That progression of the universe should involve the whole player base, not necessarily working together, but in natural symbiotic ways.

 

For instance:

  • make it so that people have to build/research schematics, so there will be players who specialise in this and sell schematics
  • Make the production/research of those schematics take some kind of alien tech or something that explorers need to go off and collect
  • Then you get a nice loop. Ship builders make ships that explorers use to go off and find alien tech that they provide to researchers who provide better schematics that ship builders then buy to make better ships for the explorers to go off and get better tech etc etc etc

And IMO this should be a long process. The higher tiers of tech should take months to reach so that the universe has a natural curve and maturity to it and the overall player base has some reasons to do things other than 'Make money for... reasons'.

 

You can then feed other systems into this like combat for stealing tech, monopolising resources for better stuff, whatever.

 

So yeh, do a wipe, but get the game at a point where it has a proper loop that makes the universe feel worthwhile first, otherwise the same thing will just happen again (especially if you just remove schematics). Solo players will be able to build everything after a month and then... what's the point?

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The discussion of a wipe has obviously caused mixed reactions among the DU community. I can't read the minds of devs, but I can assume that the teams at NQ wanted to get your thoughts/opinions on taking such a measure, and if I'm honest, I appreciate the fact that it was mentioned ahead of launch - additionally, NQ announced that they are reading/considering all of our questions and concerns... and I believe they are.

 

For many of us, a lot of time has been put into making DU creations and content. NQ understands this, period. But let's not also forget the countless hours spent by the dev team making this opportunity possible. Sure, there are some speedbumps (and possibly setbacks) along the way, and that is to be expected in an alpha or beta product. As a software developer myself, I can certainly relate to the difficulty of making decisions/changes that ultimately benefit the users of it's product in the long run, although it is not always without the risk of upsetting some of its users (in Game development even more so). Game devs are real people too - and often work many hours (unpaid overtime included) with little to no praise for all of their dedication.

 

Bugs:

Bugs are always going to be commonplace in software projects - it is next to impossible to avoid them. A small change in one place may cause something to break in another place. Oftentimes these small bugs get overlooked, especially with a smaller development team. But these bugs are no doubt on a list somewhere to be fixed (based on priority of other items). It's easy to identify something that has not been fixed, especially when it affects your gameplay, but it is not always easy to fix it in software in a timely fashion. I'm confident NQ will remedy this in the future.

 

Schematics/Skills:

I think early on, NQ wanted players to have the opportunity to explore all avenues of the game without restriction. DU being their baby, I bet it was exciting for them to see what we would do with it. Inevitably, there comes a time when it makes sense to revisit this after realizing how it impacted other experiences in the game. Were schematics the right answer? Maybe not, but it did give those who wanted to specialize in industry a clear path to do so, albeit at a great expense. I know this is a just a game, but some type of hierarchy will need to be established in order for all of us to find our niche. Maybe this could be done by implementing a top-tier profession or trade skill (i.e. Industry / Builder / Pilot / Weaponsmith / Mining, etc) where you can invest a set pool of points to become a master of your trade, but also have limited access to other professions/trades... enabling you to dabble in them, but not become a master of everything. If, at a later time, I get bored being a master of one trade, I could decide to abandon it altogether and invest my time in another profession/trade.

 

Wipe:

With regards to a wipe, I understand why it is on the table. As an alpha/beta player, I also expected this would be a possibility despite the fact that some at NQ may have said it wouldn't happen early on. Should it have been mentioned that there would not be a wipe after alpha? Probably not. Especially considering how complex a project can get as time goes on, new tools/features are added, etc. Scope creep is also another factor that devs have to work with... and I can only imagine this game has seen its fair share of those. Some may decide that they won't play after a full wipe... that  will be unfortunate for sure, especially considering this is a unique game with unique challenges - I'm looking forward to those challenges post wipe/launch. And, I'm certain that many of those who leave will be missed (some maybe not :P).

 

Value:

I can't remember the amount of money I paid for my account, but I definitely got way more enjoyment beyond the price I paid initially. Am I upset that I might lose all of the items I created if a full wipe happens? A little, but I'm also excited to start over with the vast amount of knowledge I've acquired up to this point. And, thank you NQ for all of your hard work on making a game that, for many, was long overdue in the industry.

 

In conclusion:

Apologies for the long response to this topic. Just wanted to voice my thoughts on what I'm sure is a difficult discussion for NQ. And, to say thank you to NQ for the opportunity to participate in the infancy of the game. I look forward to launch regardless of whether or not my initial creations follow me. I hope other players who consider leaving give it more thought before a final decision is made.

 

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On 4/14/2022 at 10:51 AM, blazemonger said:

I do not get this post at all as it really does nothing as far as answering any of the questions. It is a PR/marketing answer which really does not help at all. As NQ plans to release the game in a few months, it would be _really_ bad if NQ has not yet made this decision and is working towards release with that choice in mind.

 

It also makes things more convoluted and complex as in reality NQ has only two options:

 

No wipe

Not the prefrred option for me for most of the reasons explained in the post and in general I believe it woudl hurt the game long run and cretainly at  release.

But I could live with  it if it happened

 

Partial wipe

Players get to keep blueprints and accrued points are retunred to the talent pool, world is wiped

This I prefer to happen, it maintains the benefit for existing players in tha tey wil be able to jumpstart a new world with their tal;ents to be reassigtned as wanted

It also allows players who used beta accounts to change their choices if the wipe happens shortly before release.

 

 

A full wipe wil not be an option as NQ has charges people to play and taking away that time by removing any benefits from that woudl be at best unethical. A parallel server is just a very, very silly idea as NQ hardly has the resources to afford one cluster, let alone two

 

 

EXCUSE me those that paid, they Paid to be part of a game That is in "Development" they did not paid to be in a full released game. If a Full wipe is Needed to improve the game even more, then I am all for it, I am here to Help DEVELOP this game.

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I can name 2 games i played that a were in Development where everytime they came out with an update you have to start over again to use the update, (NMS) saved games would not have the update in it. and your Fusing over a full wipe, I am Planning for a full wipe setting up my blueprints so i can get my ships back up and running as fast as possible., strip off all the elements and leave just the Voxel hull and core, BP it, then work on putting back all the elements. voxels are very easy to make elements take more time. then once i do that and get it back up I can then use the blueprint to get back the talent levels i put in to it at first.

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1 hour ago, Damian_Firecaster said:

I can name 2 games i played that a were in Development where everytime they came out with an update you have to start over again to use the update, (NMS) saved games would not have the update in it. and your Fusing over a full wipe, I am Planning for a full wipe setting up my blueprints so i can get my ships back up and running as fast as possible., strip off all the elements and leave just the Voxel hull and core, BP it, then work on putting back all the elements. voxels are very easy to make elements take more time. then once i do that and get it back up I can then use the blueprint to get back the talent levels i put in to it at first.

Why are you referencing games that are nothing like this? It makes literally no sense. What about "persistent universe" ,"soft launch" , and "you will keep what you have earned" do people not understand?

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38 minutes ago, Angry Dad said:

At this point many days after the initial post, I'm sure we could all agree that we would love NQ to make a decision. 

 

100%, we are 3 dev blogs in and not even a mention. At this point the amount of "testers" they will have for the next patch on "live" wont find any real issues even if there any.

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I am eager for the decision but even more eager for the execution.  Let's get it over with and move forward ASAP.

 

As soon as they say there will be a wipe then it will immediately turn into..."When is the wipe?"  NQ you might as well set a date for that to announce at the same time.  If it is soon, I might hang around.

 

Edited by Anitalex
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57 minutes ago, Anitalex said:

I am eager for the decision but even more eager for the execution.  Let's get it over with and move forward ASAP.

 

As soon as they say there will be a wipe then it will immediately turn into..."When is the wipe?"  NQ you might as well set a date for that to announce at the same time.  If it is soon, I might hang around.

 

Yeah, at this point they almost need to launch to get the newest stuff tested with the current player pop lol

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There were an insane amount of exploits that let people get to endgame within the first week, so I stopped playing. My friends and I check in on the game periodically to see if it will wipe. If it does, we'll play, if not, we won't. Simple as that. I know a lot of other people in the situation.

So it looks like the choices are A: Don't wipe and keep the small minority of plays you have now, many of whom obtained unfair advantages via exploitation, or B: Wipe and massively expand the player base.

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1 hour ago, adalaire said:

There were an insane amount of exploits that let people get to endgame within the first week, so I stopped playing. My friends and I check in on the game periodically to see if it will wipe. If it does, we'll play, if not, we won't. Simple as that. I know a lot of other people in the situation.

So it looks like the choices are A: Don't wipe and keep the small minority of plays you have now, many of whom obtained unfair advantages via exploitation, or B: Wipe and massively expand the player base.

Yea and you will quit soon after for one reason or another. While wrong, exploits had/has virtually no impact on other players. It’s just an excuse.

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4 minutes ago, Doombad said:

Yea and you will quit soon after for one reason or another. While wrong, exploits had/has virtually no impact on other players. It’s just an excuse.

a lot of explooiters went nuts exploiting and are just desperate to see it not get undone. Apparently they'd rather seethe game die than wipe. Which it should do before release anyway

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8 minutes ago, adalaire said:

a lot of explooiters went nuts exploiting and are just desperate to see it not get undone. Apparently they'd rather seethe game die than wipe. Which it should do before release anyway

 

Its almost as if you hadn't spent any time reading the well reasoned arguments for no- or partial-wipe in this thread (in addition to full-wipe) that have discussed exactly these things, and decided to state your own fixed opinion repeatedly, just based on "because I think so".

 

Really the situation is much more nuanced than you imply, regardless of which way NQ decide to go.

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31 minutes ago, Distinct Mint said:

 

Its almost as if you hadn't spent any time reading the well reasoned arguments for no- or partial-wipe in this thread (in addition to full-wipe) that have discussed exactly these things, and decided to state your own fixed opinion repeatedly, just based on "because I think so".

 

Really the situation is much more nuanced than you imply, regardless of which way NQ decide to go.

 

While true I do shudder at the number of people in this thread who re arguing that the exploiters and cheaters had no effect on the game whatsoever. I can only think they are indeed the same people we accuse of exploiting for ill gotten gains or are completely insulated to the clear impact these significant exploits have had on the economics of the game. These impacts are not just on individual items but propagate to affect multiple organisations and alliances of organisations.

 

Personally I am of the viewpoint that the game undergo a full wipe with some level of benefits for those Alpha/Beta players for their time and effort in helping NQ bring the game to the point that it is, allow for the retention of blueprints for dynamic/space/static cores as I agree that the time invested to create these can at times be immense. (Initially I was against full blueprints being kept and only voxel copies however I believe the impact is minimal to keep full blueprints ingame)

 

 

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3 hours ago, adalaire said:

There were an insane amount of exploits that let people get to endgame

We're in a sandbox voxel game here with no progressing game content to achieve, which endgame are you referring to? Do you want to build more than others? Do you want to build bigger structures than others? Do you just want to have more quanta than others? It's all irrelevant in terms of the game experience itself.

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1 hour ago, adalaire said:

a lot of explooiters went nuts exploiting and are just desperate to see it not get undone. Apparently they'd rather seethe game die than wipe. Which it should do before release anyway

Beats me but I can tell you I see no material advantage to those who are super rich or exploited to get super rich. 

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Wipe without proper Territory Warafer system and limiting safezone just to starting area have no sense (as it was innitialy planned). It just won't work long term and create again inversible changes when that system is in place.

Before BETA release NQ had clear vision of complementary systems and complete game. Currently it lookes like half measures.

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2 hours ago, Doombad said:

Beats me but I can tell you I see no material advantage to those who are super rich or exploited to get super rich. 

That's the thing I don't get when people say we must wipe to balance the game.

 

Whatever gains some players may have gotten using exploits have almost no impact on the game what so ever.

Single players with "too much" money will not be able to properly utilize the resources alone during PvP, and orgs are making more money then they know what to do with without exploits. So exactly what is the problem?

 

And most people complain that market prices are to low, so there does no seem to be a problem with whales causing market inflation either.

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"There were an insane amount of exploits that let people get to endgame within the first week, so I stopped playing. My friends and I check in on the game periodically to see if it will wipe. If it does, we'll play, if not, we won't. Simple as that. I know a lot of other people in the situation."

 

 

As I said it's a matter of public perception... I reckon slightly short of half the population will need to see to see this terrible mistake enacted, and nothing short of witnessing the trainwreck will put to rest their fixed ideas. FFS the guy literally admits he threw the towel within weeks.

 

The biggest irony about it how they will litter again, once they drop the game like a hot potato, so in the "long" run a wipe won't even cleanup old trash like blaze loves to tell us.

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6 hours ago, Doombad said:

While wrong, exploits had/has virtually no impact on other players. It’s just an excuse.

If you think that, you're foolish!

 

It has had huge impacts on players, from market pvp, to actual pvp, etc. It's just not directly visible. The moment those players interact with players or stop interacting with players it can have an impact. The scope of misuse of some of the exploits was massive. It might be mitigated by the possibility that many of the people that misused the exploits left the game a while back...

 

Even legitimate game loops that where poorly thought out like the missioning system or the huge (returning) NPC orders devalued the quanta enormously. The Meganode mechanic created huge stocks of ore that weren't sold, with the introduction of autominers the potential of that was hugely underestimated by both devs and players. We now have very cheap ore. Quanta and ore value have a huge impact on the average player (either positively or negatively).

 

I also think that people overestimate and underestimate the effect a wipe will have on them. I suspect that the players complaining the loudest will have the hardest time after an ore/construct/quanta wipe, and the folks that are already space rich will have get even richer faster. While the missioning system will change after the patch/wipe, it can still be very heavily used to earn quanta. The automining system has had no changes, beyond limiting core counts (limiting the amount of mining locations you can exploit), but it's still very overpowered if you know what you're doing and are dedicated...

 

Everything changes, it all stays the same...

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12 hours ago, adalaire said:

There were an insane amount of exploits that let people get to endgame within the first week, so I stopped playing. My friends and I check in on the game periodically to see if it will wipe. If it does, we'll play, if not, we won't. Simple as that. I know a lot of other people in the situation.

So it looks like the choices are A: Don't wipe and keep the small minority of plays you have now, many of whom obtained unfair advantages via exploitation, or B: Wipe and massively expand the player base.


For someone with a whole two posts under their belt, that some heavy-hitting hyperbole you're using there.

 

"Insane amount of exploits..."  

-- There were probably half a dozen that had any lasting impact. Some directly lead to comments by NQ not to exploit or face consequences... like the unlimited range container bug and the Market Place 15 disassembly leading to players being banned... Though I believe the exact exploit you're likely talking about were the 1ℏ blueprints (slight exaggeration)... IIRC Someone bought a dozen or so warp beacon, AGG and Warp drive bloops and auctioned them off at half the market rate or something and got billions of ℏ in a few days. Sure that's unfair, but I don't know if he or she still even plays any more.

The solar system is too big as it is, the chance of him or her ruining my game is minimal to non-existent.

 

"B: Wipe and massively expand the player base."

-- And your source for this sweet summer nugget is?

Sorry, sounds like a case of FIMO (Fear I Missed Out).

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