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NQ-Nyzaltar

How hard (or easy) will it be to earn DAC?

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Hi everyone!

 

We are aware there has been a very hot debate this week about the DACs being unlootable/not possible to steal from their owner. We apologize for the late reply (the Kickstarter campaign is something getting most of our time at the moment) and we thank you for your patience. We always try to find a compromise, an acceptable solution for different categories of players, without favorizing a specific one (because a sandbox game needs as much PvP players than non-PvP players). There has been a few misunderstandings and this thread is here to dissipate them. As we know many of you are passionate about the topic, there will be a few rules, to keep the thread clean and clear, easy to read:

 

- No Meme.
- Explain only in one post your point of view (and edit it if you want to add something). Of course this doesn't count for replying on further Novaquark posts in the thread.
- No flaming, no provocation toward any other participant of the topic.
If some these rules are broken, your post might be edited or removed without warning.
 
 

If they are non-physical items, what does putting them for sale on a market actually do to them? 

 

Apparently there has been some confusion/misunderstanding about what has been said on the Kickstarter page in the comments (it seems the misunderstanding comes from here). To the question: "Are DACs physical items?" the answer has been "No, the DACs are digital items". However, that was said in the sense "It's not a physical item in the real world". There have been so many occurrences about the opposite question regarding the "Arkship Passenger ID Card" being considered as a digital reward (while it was a physical reward, an item you get in the real world) that we apparently misunderstood the real sense of the question in the Kickstarter for the DACs.

 

So, to clarify:
DACs are digital items in the sense there won't be any under physical form in the real world (like a prepaid card or something similar). However, they will be "physical" in the virtual world of Dual Universe in the sense that you will be able to move them from one inventory to another. It would make no sense if they weren't movable as it won't be possible to put them on the market.
 

If a market is destroyed (if this is even possible), would they return back to the person who put them up for sale? I suppose this breaks into the broader question of, what happens to the items in a market if a market is destroyed or a territory is lost? Do they become the property of the person who took over the territory? 

 

This is one of the question that is still in discussion on the game design level: markets outside safezones, destructible or not?
Possibly yes, but in that case, the way to handle unlootable DACs wasn't very appealing to the team (an item travelling through space to go back to its owner in case of the market destruction is a bit immersion breaking). However, there are several huge implications (and concerns) of having being markets destructible (and that's probably why it's not possible in EvE).
 

I have not read all of the comments/discussions that have happened already, but I did not think that the argument for DAC's being lootable was to avoid Pay-to-Win non lootable DAC's. I do not share this opinion, that non lootable DAC's would be Pay-to-Win, and I understand why you're genuinely curious as to why some of the community thinks this. I'd love to know.

 

CaptainTwerkMotor sees the fact of "DAC being unlootable" as something making the DAC a "Pay-to-Win" weapon. We're not sure to understand how he came to this conclusion so we would like to hear his reasoning behind this. We hope he will answer to this question below in the thread.
 

For me, the reason I want DAC's to be lootable is for the emergent gameplay that evolves around the item. Let me be clear--I do think there needs to be a way for players to buy DAC's from NovaQuark or another player and be able to store/use the item without any threat to losing it. Just as you described in your second point, EVE allows players trade/manage PLEX with practically zero risk of loss. I think Dual Universe should have the same system, in general. 

 
Honestly, I'm trying to understand why wouldn't choose this system. If you provide the player a clear understanding, and, if necessary, guidelines the player can take to keep their DAC's safe, then why would you prohibit those who don't follow these guidelines from having their DAC's stolen? Why? When having the ability to steal DAC's means there is gameplay created for traders/pirates to play an active role in the economy of DAC's. I just think there is too much missed gameplay, too many missed 'heart pounding moments', transporting DAC's around the universe, or too many missed points for hitting that lucky load after successfully assaulting/boarding an enemy. 
 
I imagine a time when there are different star systems occupied by the playerbase. Players may be able to trade DAC's within the star system without physically picking up the item (it's transferred safely electronically), but the only way DAC's can make it to new star systems is to physically bring it there (risking loss during transport). Create a game where gameplay can be evolve around DAC's. Why wouldn't you? So long as the 'care bears' and builders have a means to buy/use DAC's without any risk of loss, why wouldn't you want more gameplay? 
 
You have a point in saying that some emergent gameplay would be missing.
And you have also a point saying it could be acceptable to have DACs lootable if there was a 100% safe way to use them and/or transport them. So why something similar to the EVE redemption system hasn't been chosen right away?
 
The main reason was: game development time.
Developing a solid secondary inventory system outside the game, tied to the account instead of a character, interconnected with the game and a payment portal at the same time, and all the ramifications that come with it... is something far from being trivial. It will take a significant amount of time to develop, to test and to be 100% sure the system is bug free. For the official release, the DAC system at the moment is supposed to be pretty simple: A player buy a DAC on the payment portal, he choose the character on which he want to drop the DAC and a moment later, the player can find the DAC in the character inventory. 
 
As some of us in the Novaquark team are EvE Players, we witnessed the chaos that followed the introduction of the PLEXs in EVE. With our minimalistic system (at least for now), if the DACs were lootable, we expected to experience such chaos. So we opted for the DACs unlootable (unless there was a game breaking loophole). It seemed to us a quick and easy solution, quite similar to the EVE redemption system regarding the effects: as it was possible in EVE to transport PLEX in a secure way (keeping PLEX in the redemption system and dropping them only in safe, non-PvP areas like NPC space stations), we honestly didn't think it was such a big deal to have unlootable DACs. However, seeing it is for a large part of the community, we will aim to something similar to the Redemption system, as it still seem to us an acceptable compromise for every player profiles (even if it represents extra work). We can't promise it will be implemented at official release but we will do our best: CCP had a much larger team when they implemented the redemption system, and on our side, we have already a huge roadmap ahead for a team of our size. Moreover, it will be less painful (both for the community and the dev team) to start with unlootable DACs becoming lootable in the future, than the contrary.
 

As a community we only saw what you told at interviews, E3, on kickstarter. Deriving from that we saw that some people had issues with lootable DACs and you changed that immediately. Our biggest fear is that you do this again, if enough people pledge for it. For instance griefing/scamming. There should be mechanics that prevent abuse, no one wants to be griefed/scammed all the time, that would not be fun for anyone. 

 

There's something that needs to be very clear here: again, we didn't change anything immediately on a whim, just because some people had issues. We did it regarding our roadmap, and we honestly thought it wouldn't be a big issue for the community as it seemed to us there wouldn't be a big difference between unlootable DACs and an EvE-like redemption system. We still think the reaction has been disproportionate on the topic, but as a redemption system is still a good compromise for both PvP players and Non-PvP players, we are totally ok to go with that. It will just take more time to do it (and push back a bit some other features on the roadmap).
 
Loud voices without a well-reasoned opinion/feedback will never work.
Loud voices won't influence the dev team decisions (we thought it was pretty clear with the Divine Reapers case on the forum) 
Well-reasoned feedback (like the discussion here) can. That and game development time constraints.
 
Regarding Scamming:
As long as it won't be a scam using a bug exploit, and have some way to be avoided by being a minimum careful and responsible, this will be up to the player (who supposed to be an adult) to not trust completely a person he just met. For all other cases, the Novaquark Team reserves the right to intervene: sandbox doesn't mean "letting the game turn into chaos".
On a side note: Dual Universe is not meant for children. It has never been designed for them. 
 
Regarding Griefing:
Ambushing a player is part of the gameplay.
Harassing some players repeatedly for any reason (be it vengeance, to make them leave the game, etc) is another thing.
In this second case the Novaquark Team reserves the right to intervene: again, sandbox doesn't mean "letting the game turn into chaos".
 

If you had to weight the impact of one outcome or another, stealable vs non stealable, you will have a larger population that is more likely to "rebuild civilization" in a world where you cannot steal DAC's. You will have a player population geared more towards tearing down emerging civilizations if DAC's are stealable, even if it is very difficult to do so.

 

You have a point here.
And that's why there's a need to have 100% safe way to handle DACs, by making them unlootable or having a system as similar as possible as the EVE redemption system.
 

- Lootable DAC's make it very likely that trading hubs will only spring up in safe zones. If feel it would be much more interesting to have several smaller trading hubs in player-policed spaces competing for traders. If at least my wallet is safe I'm much more likely to sample the products at an unsafe market, if I can lose literally everything I'm pretty much guaranteed to ever only do high-value trades around the Arkship, and I can't be the only one. 

- Let me remind you that there is no such a thing as a starter ship, you're still pretty much risking to lose everything when travelling to fringe markets. Apparently spaceships are planned to be fairly valuable in this game, getting destroyed while cruising between planetary systems will still likely be a blow to your financial situation, even if your precious DACs are safe. 

 

You made two good points here.
And the dev team takes this factors into account.

 

What about credits? Will they be digital or physical? What will happen to them when you die?

 

Credits will be immaterial and not lootable.
Regarding character death, the current game design (it might change) is the following: When a character dies, it will loose all he has in his inventory. A part will be destroyed. The other part will be lootable.
 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

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Thanks for all that infos. So you said DACs are lootable. I'm disappointed. I thin the same way as CaptainTwerkMotor. Moreover, lootable DACs will provide Banks to emerge, and you will have to keep your DACs safe in a secured/hidden place if you don't want to pay a bank. The DACs lootable will also make you choose whether you use your DACs for other things rapidly or keep them, it will really bring a fear experience and everything will seem to have much more value, the pirates will become a real threat and conflict will strive between stable governments and liberal orgs.

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Could we at least get a small safe inventory space on the ARK ship for storing stuff in the early game?

 

My concern is that as a kickstarter backer when the game goes live I will have a whole stack of DACs in my inventory and no safe way to store them. I wont want to leave the safe zone untill i have stashed my valuables somewhere safe,

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Even if it's a double post from the conversation we had: thank you very much Nyzaltar for your efforts and it's very good that the devs listen to their community.

 

I understand your problems regarding that topic and it's good that you told us why you choose that path. That's very thoughtful and being honest with us is important.

 

IMHO:

 

- it's good that you think of an eve like system. Dacs are perfectly safe to use for someone who just wants to make quick in-game money and for the player who wants to play DU for free with dacs. The ones who want to crash the market, mess around with dac prices and want to make more money with dacs are bound to think about safety, because they can be looted. That's a very good thing.

 

- Players who get killed and lose stuff because they are destroyed or dropped is good too, so you have to worry about it and pirates have something to do.

 

- Scams/Griefing will be good to have gameplay wise and I understand that you have to set up some kind of protection system if someone is constantly targeted.But allowing it per se is a wonderful addition to the game

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I'm confident whatever NQ comes up with, it will be fair an equitable to everyone.

 

Here's a key quote from Nyzaltar:

 

"We can't promise it will be implemented at official release but we will do our best: CCP had a much larger team when they implemented the redemption system, and on our side, we have already a huge roadmap ahead for a team of our size. Moreover, it will be less painful (both for the community and the dev team) to start with unlootable DACs becoming lootable in the future, than the contrary."

 

So, depending upon development, lootable DAC may not be in the initial release.

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@NQ-Nyzaltar


My problem is not with if the Real-Money buyer of the DACs does a pay-to-win. That person should be protected.

What I really wanted, was for people reselling the DAC to have a risk, the kind of people that don't need the DAC and want to resell it at an opportune moment. If that kind of player was to be protected by a fully unlootable DAC, that would break the game's economic warfare.

I can see the reasoning for money to be unlootable, either lore-wise or gameplay-wise. Money in the game symbolise "progress" by the player, they farm, they sell their farmed items, they "Save" it as their in-game currency. Now, if DACs were to be completely and totally not EVE Online's PLEX, that would make them a Premium Currency, AKA , progress you can buy, ergo, Pay-to-Win. Thank Cthulu, that ain't the case though. 

Since you cleared that up, I have no issue anymore. Making a fail-proof system for redeeming DACs and even more importantly, making said DAC redemption system idiot-proof, is a harder task than it sounds code-wise, that people understand.


But the REAL questino I have now is...


Is the "ban" process going to be an automated system or a manual, amount of reports to priority, task, when it it comes to griefing?


Cause if during two fleets fighting, one pilot gets blown up 15 tiems in a row, they may report the pilot that blew them up, 15 times in a row and the actually NOT guilty player may be banned.

Or, a famous Redditer or Twerking Motor, decides that he had enough for X player and througgh Discord he coordinates a dump of reports on the same person repeatedly. How will NovaQuark hinder that? Will you allow for griefing through reports? Cause THAT will surely drive people away from the game.

Will we have to wage space war by politely asking and begging the losing side not to report us? Can you guarantee the adminsitrators, when it comes to the banning process of "Griefers", won't be playing heads & tails on people's accounts?

And if the game has an auto-ban process, can you guarantee the algorithm can read the location of the player being reported and if the algorithm can detect that the "griefing" happenend during an uneven fight and / or massive engagement of two fleets?

What I'm saying is, you want to protect people from being "Griefed" in-game, but you nullify blockades that way. You can't blockade a planet from resupllying for X, Y, Z reason, if the blockade was to be massively reported by Lil' Timmy who came at their battleship division that enacts the blockade, expecting to get through the 11th time.

Does the Dev team have an answer to that?

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This is pretty straightforward.

 

DAC is a RL cash-equivalent asset. Stealing it is RL theft. Allowing players to steal it would be a criminal activity on the part of NQ.

 

Just say No.

 

Sorry NQ. I got carried away and forgot about the one post rule. After reading through, I stand by what I said.

 

I should add, I don't see what a DAC would be as a physical in-game item or why a character as opposed to a player would want one. They are meta-items by their nature and should be treated that way. 

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Im completely okay with the DACs following the same model as PLEX, once it is redeemed it should be lootable. there will be nothing criminal about it, a person who buys the DAC for rl money doesnt redeem it till they go to sell or use., and the person who bought it with ingame currency has to use it or risk it being looted. This stops ppl from just hoarding them to a degree which will stop them from getting outrageous in price

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Hello there,

 

new Player here.

 

For me (as I was a long player in EVE) its a twofolded sword.

 

- DAC is ingame time paid with ingame money and so in the Real World many people will make / farm ingame money and will sell it for Real Life currency !

   (See EVE Online with the Goldfarmers)

- On the other hand it is a aim toward emergent gameplay. You need to protect you and your assets and / or use the DAC as soon as you get

 

I still say make it non lootable.

 

Cheers

 

Perry_Hope

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Im completely okay with the DACs following the same model as PLEX, once it is redeemed it should be lootable. there will be nothing criminal about it, a person who buys the DAC for rl money doesnt redeem it till they go to sell or use., and the person who bought it with ingame currency has to use it or risk it being looted. This stops ppl from just hording them to a degree which will stop them from getting out rageous in price

Yes. Seems to be a good substitute.

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Agreed once original owner (real money) is no longer in possession of that DAC it is no longer protected.

 

Buyer can use DAC on purchase or it becomes lootable.

 

If the DAC is sold on again, the next buyer has the option to use the DAC immediately the lootable status however does not change it remains lootable.

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I'm game for almost any system here, if it ends up being a system that mote closely resembles PLEX, I'll find a way to work with that.

 

Above all though, we don't want any system that creates a chilling effect on kickstarter backers. If Kickstarter Rewaed DAC's can be stolen day 1, or if potential backers get word that this will even be a possibility, this will hurt the funding track of the game and possibly cripple the project. The damage that a "Lootable DAC" announcement will cause will FAR OUTSTREACH the backlash that ensued when the opposite was declared. There might be some very outspoken supporters that are in-favor of exposing their rewards to risk, but the silent majority could withdraw support in throngs.

 

I'll support any decision made here and I'll take my memes somewhere else, but this has GOT to be a decision made for the success of the game instead of individual player preference, it is bigger than that.

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I think to put things into a form of context for everyone, to my knowledge at least; this is what has been proposed.

 

100 DACs go onto the market, in a close enough proximity for me to be able to go around and buy from various markets. As there are many sellers, there is a price war and the price is very reasonable in terms of resources or credits.

 

Scenario 1:- the players who need the DACs need to do minimum farming to afford this DAC and once they have enough they buy and redeem the DAC, adding to their gameplay time. As the Dac was not redeemed by the buyer it couldn't be looted so his RL money was safe, and as the player who bought it redeemed it straight away it could not be looted from him either so he was safe.The DACs are lootable but only if the player who bought them for in-game currency does not redeem it when he buys it, which he did so his game time was never in danger.  No problems there, chicken dinner for all. 

 

Scenario 2:- I buy 80 of those DACs and keep them. There is now a market shortage, a friend of mine buys any others we find going on the market and after a week we possess 80% of the games DACs that have been on sale that week. Now we sell those DACs on at 1000% of what we bought them for. As there are currently no other DACs for this week to buy, the players who need them have no choice but to buy them. The price is now ridiculous and players have to spend most of their in-game time grinding just to play. No one can steal these DACs off of me that I am not going to use, as my friend and I have lifetime subs from Kickstarter. Moreover, seeing how much DACs are now selling for, the buyers who pay RL money for the DACs inflate their prices in in-game currency to match mine so DACs how now permanently increased 1000% in 1 week. Clearly, a huge problem that players are wanting to avoid and quite rightly so. As such once I buy those DACs in-game for in game money it is proposed that if I do not redeem them, then they can be stolen from me to try and prevent this from happening.

 

Scenario 3:- the player who bought the DAC is far away from the DAC seller, and has asked for it to be transported to him. Payment was in terms of in-game currency that is not lootable as it is not physical. Now to send the DAC via 3rd party it must be redeemed to be transported, or at least made physical. This now presents a large problem for everyone, as what is to stop me from selling a DAC, and having my friend steal it mid transitt, returning it to me and splitting the profits? you may suggest that the DAC is not lootable until it reaches the buyer? But now we can return to scenario 2, where I have my friend collect my DAC's for me and hold them until we have buyers at our inflated prices, keeping them protected and un-lootable, as we would meet in the safe zone for me to collect, redeem and re-sell, and then even tip off a pirate org to steal them from my friend for a set price for the info and split that as well. I feel this scenario is open to huge abuse and needs to be looked at. Of course, you should really always try and collect your DAC from the seller, but what happens later game, when you are too far away to do this.  

 

Personally, I think that as many game mechanics are still undecided, unconfirmed and subject to change, we cannot really bring a clear answer to the solutions to this. This game is not like any other game we have ever played, and really is still a bit of a mystery to us all. Although I do agree that this debate is clearly relevant and needs to be addressed by both sides for several reasons. I do think it is foolish to rush to conclusions on what should and shouldn't be implemented until we know for certain how this game is going to play. It is unfair to ask the devs to put in this kind of time and effort which will put their roadmap and important features on hold when it may be that what we are asking for doesn't fit into the games mechanics or is not needed because of such mechanics. I think really, this debate is better nearer to the game's release when we know what the deal is.

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No, DAC's should be a permanently immune item from theft. But I propose a counter argument(s) to all of this. Pick and choose pieces of each argument if that suits the outcome better NQ.

 

Make it so that the DAC item is only potent, or usable, on Alioth. Create a NPC on the arkship, that has a inventory for every player, and that is where they can store DAC's for free. Even if theyre potent in the entire universe, at least having a safe storage NPC should be doable? even with the current technical limitations?

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Keep the emphasis of emergent gameplay on the game itself, not on the RMT deterrent, or else we may as well attatch real life value to all the game currency and create a direct money market exchange. Where people can pour real life money in, or withdrawal real life money out, by proxy of the game currency.

 

Well, I propose finding a means to make the Ark Tokens, that are already to be found out in the public, a greater emphasis to turn peoples attention away from DAC's

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On a second move I propose that we can make any variation of limits on the game currency market wallets. Either limits in transferring large quantities of funds, or actual limits on how much money you can hold in the market wallet.

 

By imposing a limit on the wallet, you would force people to convert some of their money into "physical" game goods. Raw ores / refined ores / valuable components. OR we could have an item as suggested by many, gold bars, or any various thing. Let us attach some tags to them, and there we go a viable alternative to the DAC's.

 

I can understand the concern of people having these DAC's out and about in circulation but they're not the magical, end all be all, item a small group of people want them to be. The emergent gameplay is actually just a code word for. I want to be able to steal DACs for game time.

Why cant you steal valuable things, and resell them and buy the DAC's with game currency like everyone else? Not everyone's gameplay styles can be favored over some others?

 

Do people think that because DAC's exist that Ark Tokens, 500,000 tons of raw iron, sneaking into an enemy hanger and hijacking a valuable ship, do they think that DAC's make irrelevant all the other possible emergent gameplay styles? In fact I almost go so far as to think that wrapping the whole game around these DAC's is counter progressive.

It hinders NQ's freedom to develop other interesting features into the game. This is why im opposed to them being a lootable item in play in the game field. Keep them restricted, and keep them just for their intended purpose of anti RMT, account security, and the viable choice for the free to play crowd.

 

We have Ark Tokens, a very valuable item, that must be found by exploring. And we could have other high value items to enable the sort of emergent game play people want. Let us not turn it into a war of real money economics with the DAC's.

 

Keeping the DAC's clean, and creating in game items with greater value than DAC's, will prevent the root fear that many have which is that DAC's can be used by some means to destabilize gameplay.

 

------

And above all, I ask of you everyone to let NQ devlop the game in a clean environment. This ruckus that exploded over this is pretty shameful on the community.

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Could we at least get a small safe inventory space on the ARK ship for storing stuff in the early game?

 

My concern is that as a kickstarter backer when the game goes live I will have a whole stack of DACs in my inventory and no safe way to store them. I wont want to leave the safe zone untill i have stashed my valuables somewhere safe,

 

This simply WON'T happen. FIrstly, lootable DAC's wont be implemented before the game goes live. Second, the lootable system was never meant to allow DAC's to be stolen from people right off the Ark. 

 

Didn't you read the post? They are going to implement a system where the DAC's can/will be 100% safe if the player chooses.

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I'm strongly for unlootable, safe DACs.

 

Main reasons:

 

1) Lootable DACs will lead to rapid escalation of hatred in our community and poisoning of overall game atmosphere by constant fear.

2) In-game trade development will be crippled by need of using only safe-zone hubs.

3) Players, who enjoy suffering of others (and present in every game) will be extreamly motivated to do their worst with lootable DACs.  

4) Many people will not take lightly loosing DACs and quit the game, with very bad feelings. DACs cost real money and its simply immoral to take them from people just for "game mistake". They will be pushished enough by loosing inventory/ships.

 

Thanks.

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I'm still indifferent, and frankly shocked that we're still discussing something that will have little to no actual impact on game play

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently these 2 simple instructions were unmanageable for a large part of the community. 

 

- Explain only in one post your point of view (and edit it if you want to add something). Of course this doesn't count for replying on further Novaquark posts in the thread.
- No flaming, no provocation toward any other participant of the topic.

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I am against having Loot able DACs in game. for the following reasons.

 

1)  It is assumed that once you use it to add to your game time, its a timer, so if you know you are going to be off line for an extended time, you should have the ability to buy them when they are cheap, and hold onto them for when you need to use them.

2)  It is not IMHO emergent game play to loot these, as they have no real game world purpose so why should a character even want them?  Resources on the other hand, yes a character would desire that.

3)  This whole market crashing BS can still be done safely using the safe zones or other methods as described by GrandMasterApex.

4)  If Credits are non loot able, which has a real presence in the game, why should DACs not also be safe?  It is more emergent game play to demand the ability to loot credits.

5)  IMHO it is a better plan to resolve these complaints of hoarding, by making these items only able to be sold or traded ONCE.  This solves almost all of the legitimate complaints against keeping them non-loot able, but also lets players hold in game purchased ones till they need to use them safely.  This will also stop scams and griefing people buy luring them out to remote PVP areas with extremely low prices, to only be pounced on after they are purchased.

 

I also think it is ridiculous to be taking so much of the community's time and NQ's time discussing this now when the release of the game is 2 years out.  I would much rather have the NQ team focusing on building a great stable Alpha, and construct vs. construct combat, you know the important EMERGENT game play.

 

 Also I thought since most of the PRO loot able arguments were coming from EVE players and supporting how great it works in eve I would share the following link.

 

https://community.ev...ges-on-the-way/

 

In particular this part of it.  "The PLEX Vault will allow you to move PLEX safely throughout the universe rather than having to move it in a ship."

 

So i personally consider all "this is how it works in EVE " ETC. arguments invalid since it no longer is the way EVE works.  Also I would like to add that if it was working so well why did CCP change it and should we also then consider the why and the route they went.

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There is big wall of text =)

1. I am against lootable DACs. This will force to upset players, who may leave. Stealing DACs from trade increase chance somebody who need it, won't get it - as result player leave the game.

If I would be basic player, without time for grinding, and somebody will steal DAC, game woukd get negative feedback very quickly. Wasting real money, it is too offensive. Reputation of game going down. Players amount (who ready to pay extra money) going down. Players amount (who can not pay for subscribe) going down. Income of company going down. I don't see anything positive for game.

 

Words about "If DAC would lootable, we would get much more players", sound as funny stories. I have never met players who joined game because of lootable DAC (or similar system). But negative effect of players loss still actual.

 

2. My view.

DAC is option to pay for game time for those who has problems with subscribe (but have time to grind). So player 1 employ player 2 and pay him for job. DAC do not give any extra advantage, that can not be gained without real money payment. So P2W stories are too cool. Sorry.

With same thing, we can remove organisations, because it not fair to those who play solo. Org teams have much higher range of finances and abilities.

 

But I agree, unlootable DAC could be abused on markets. So IMO, DAC must be unlootable, but also could be trade only once.

 

That mean, owner (paid $) can freely sell DAC to any player without risk (if you want to put risk for game supporters, that mean you don't care about supporters). But as soon DAC was sold by owner, it become binded to player, that mean item can not be traded again.

 

Result: Supporter/owner get money without any risk (reward for support). Player who bought DAC from owner, will have option to use it to get 30 days of playing.

 

Pirates can steal resources, money and use it for buying DACs, if it so necessary to them.

 

3. Result:

-Supporter always will get what he paid for (real $)

-Grinder have risk while gathering and selling resources

-Pirates can steal resources and later use money to get DAC

-Prices for DAC can not be abused by large organisations, who can buy all DACs and make price x2 (some players time can run out)

-Perfect balance, when 1 player work for another (money do not come from air, like in typical P2W)

-Market balance. You can not sell 1000 DACs instantly, if there is no enough of demand

 

My opinion, not lootable or First-Trade-Bind.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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This is pretty straightforward.

 

DAC is a RL cash-equivalent asset. Stealing it is RL theft. Allowing players to steal it would be a criminal activity on the part of NQ.

 

Just say No.

 

Stealing DACs (in the context of looting in the game) is not a real life crime. I've seen a lot of people say this and it's just plain false.

 

DACs are not cash equivalent as they cannot be converted back into real life money. If they could be converted back and forth then, yes, they would be considered currency and stealing them would constitute a real life crime. The in game economy would also be subject to all sorts of international currency laws which would make everything super messy (nothing like having to report your earnings in a videogame for real life taxes :P). Once the customer pays for them, they turn into virtual, 'fake' property that is not covered by any real life laws. So long as the rules laid our in the game's EULA are not broken, people can do whatever they want with them with no consequences, including stealing or "scamming" them. They can be used for dollar-to-ingame-money comparisons based on their in-game selling price but that figure would just be for comparisons sake. 

 

As to whether or not DACs should be lootable, I say yes, but not immediately.

 

They should not be lootable until a system like EVE's redemption system can be implemented. Like many people who backed the kickstarted, I would be spawning in on day one with a nice fat stack of DACs and I don't want to lose them all the second I step out of the safe zone. 

 

In the long run, though, they should eventually be made lootable like PLEX in EVE. I don't think any of the arguments against this have much merit to them. With the redemption system in place, people who buy them could spawn them directly into the market where they were going to sell them with zero risk. Likewise, people who wanted to buy them for the gametime could buy them and activate them on the spot with zero risk as well.  Only the people who want to haul them around would have risk, and that's fine. DACs are going to very expensive in game by their very nature (that's worthy of an entire post in and of itself), so anyone who does DAC trading between the various trade hubs is going to be making obscene amounts of money off even small percentage differences in prices. Why wouldn't we want those people to have risk? (And if super rich players were smart they could still use arbitrage to avoid the risk of transporting it.) As to the argument that having DACs be lootable will lead to them only being traded in safe zones, and, possibly, that this will cause all the trade hubs to be in safe zones. Again, why is this a bad thing? For starters, safe zones will probably end up being major trade hubs anyways, depending on market destruction mechanics. It doesn't matter whether it's a billion dollars in ore or a billion dollars of DACs, if I'm trading high value items of any sort and market security is really such a concern, I'm probably going to do it in a safe zone. Additionally, the developers have stated that there will be multiple safe zones spread throughout the galaxy that would allow for there to major safe-zone market hubs in every region (region is kind of a loose term here but you get the picture).

 

For the other arguments, that lootable DACs will result in hatred or people quitting the game, I think that is unfounded. As NQ has said, we are all adults here (or at least we should be) and we should be able to manage risk. This is not a game for children. I'm reminded of the ever present argument in EVE over the concept of suicide ganking. Many people insist that ganking is driving people away from the game because they can't handle the danger. And yet, when CCP ran the numbers, it turned out that new players who were ganked within their first week of play had a much HIGHER retention rate than those didn't! The sense of risk gave value to the experience. Now I'm not saying that everyone start ganking each other all the time, but there is a difference between reasonable protecting people from unreasonable risk and unreasonably protecting people from reasonable risk. It makes the game boring and people go play something more exciting (like getting ganked in EVE haha).

 

DACs should be unlootable until a proper redemption system can be implemented. After that, I see no reason why they shouldn't be made lootable.

 

 

 

EDIT: In response to some other points I have seen made in this thread.

 

1) When people are talking about "looting" DACs they seem to use the words "steal" and "loot" interchangeably, and I think this is causing some confusion. What people are talking about with have "lootable" DACs doesn't mean that someone can just come a long and yank them out of your pocket, or steal them from your account while you are offline. What it means is that DACs would be treated like any other good in the game. If you are carrying them in your ship and it gets destroyed, people can loot them from the wreck along with whatever else you were carrying. Whether you are for or against lootable DACs, we all need to be on the same page about the specifics of what we are arguing over. I support lootable DACs but not the ability to just "steal" them from anyone.

 

2) Some people have argued that, in order to solve the DAC Problem, other items be made more valuable so as to "distract" people from DACs. This isn't really feasible since all high value items will still follow the same laws of supply and demand that DACs will. Some will trade them, some will use them, and some will hoard them. The main difference with DACs is the fact that they are tied to a real life currency value (although that does not make them a RL currency equivalent as some have suggested). Since they are tied into a real life value, they are less vulnerable to price manipulation on a global scale. In addition, the value of DACs will naturally rise with inflation rate of the in game economy, making them a good option for long term investment.

 

3) Some people have stated that since DACs are intended to be a way for people to pay for membership by playing, or skip grinding by paying for a DAC and trading that for in game money, people should only be able to trade them once or some other limiting factor that would prevent people from actively stockpiling/trading DACs. What they don't realize is that this would create huge problems for precisely those people who want to use it for its "intended purpose". Imagine if people could only trade DACs once, so the person who bought it in game had to use it. If more people bought DACs to sell than there were people trying to buy them, the people who paid real money will have essentially wasted their money as they won't be able to sell the DACs, or they will have to sell them so cheaply that it won't be worth it. Imagine the other way around, for some reason a bunch of people try to buy DACs off the market at the same time and there just aren't enough DACs to go around. Two things will happen there: first, prices are going to skyrocket, and second, no matter how high prices go, not everyone who wants one will get one. By having a market that can resell DACs, both buyers and sellers are protected. Sellers know they can always sell their DACs when they want to, and buyers know that they can always buy one when they want to. The price will also be kept in check by the supply/demand and will remain relatively steady. Again, look at the PLEX market in EVE Online. This isn't really an argument for or against lootability, more an argument against putting a limit on how many times DACs can be traded.

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The devs decided to implement DACs because they wanted to prevent goldfarming. So I think that's all it should be. Allow player A to buy DACs from player B, who bought them from NQ. The DACs would become "soulbound" to player A. He cannot resell them. He must redeem them. DACs would not become another currency ingame, but they would still serve their purpose to combat goldfarming. Only those who need to use DACs for game time would buy them, so they would redeem the DACs immediately, making being lootable, or not, irrelevant.

 

As a second opinion, I would agree with DACs being lootable.

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Nyzaltar already quoted my main points against lootable DACs, so I don't need to repeat myself. While I find the compromise agreeable from a purely game mechanical POV, I still feel it's a pointless waste of development effort for something that is bound to have so little effect on the game.

 

I'd like to add something different, though, directed at Nyzaltar and the team. I believe someone already mentioned it in the last (unofficial) thread on the subject, but this topic of lootable DACs or not is probably not quite as hot or as important to the community as it might seem from the furious debates. There are just so few gameplay elements yet that are really set in stone, so when NQ announces something that does sound like a definite decision was made, naturally we will all latch onto it and tear it apart.

 

DACs are maybe the first thing we are able to discuss in a factual manner, rather than the pure pie-in-the-sky speculation we are left with concerning almost everything else in the game at this point.  

 

 

The devs decided to implement DACs because they wanted to prevent goldfarming. So I think that's all it should be. Allow player A to buy DACs from player B, who bought them from NQ. The DACs would become "soulbound" to player A. He cannot resell them. He must redeem them. DACs would not become another currency ingame, but they would still serve their purpose to combat goldfarming. Only those who need to use DACs for game time would buy them, so they would redeem the DACs immediately, making being lootable, or not, irrelevant.

 

Well, now I'm baffled that nobody else thought of this yet, or at least I haven't seen this idea. Sounds like a pretty straightforward alternative.

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Stealing DACs (in the context of looting in the game) is not a real life crime. I've seen a lot of people say this and it's just plain false.

 

DACs are not cash equivalent as they cannot be converted back into real life money. If they could be converted back and forth then, yes, they would be considered currency and stealing them would constitute a real life crime. The in game economy would also be subject to all sorts of international currency laws which would make everything super messy (nothing like having to report your earnings in a videogame for real life taxes :P). Once the customer pays for them, they turn into virtual, 'fake' property that is not covered by any real life laws. So long as the rules laid our in the game's EULA are not broken, people can do whatever they want with them with no consequences, including stealing or "scamming" them. They can be used for dollar-to-ingame-money comparisons based on their in-game selling price but that figure would just be for comparisons sake. 

 

As to whether or not DACs should be lootable, I say yes, but not immediately.

 

They should not be lootable until a system like EVE's redemption system can be implemented. Like many people who backed the kickstarted, I would be spawning in on day one with a nice fat stack of DACs and I don't want to lose them all the second I step out of the safe zone. 

 

In the long run, though, they should eventually be made lootable like PLEX in EVE. I don't think any of the arguments against this have much merit to them. With the redemption system in place, people who buy them could spawn them directly into the market where they were going to sell them with zero risk. Likewise, people who wanted to buy them for the gametime could buy them and activate them on the spot with zero risk as well.  Only the people who want to haul them around would have risk, and that's fine. DACs are going to very expensive in game by their very nature (that's worthy of an entire post in and of itself), so anyone who does DAC trading between the various trade hubs is going to be making obscene amounts of money off even small percentage differences in prices. Why wouldn't we want those people to have risk? (And if super rich players were smart they could still use arbitrage to avoid the risk of transporting it.) As to the argument that having DACs be lootable will lead to them only being traded in safe zones, and, possibly, that this will cause all the trade hubs to be in safe zones. Again, why is this a bad thing? For starters, safe zones will probably end up being major trade hubs anyways, depending on market destruction mechanics. It doesn't matter whether it's a billion dollars in ore or a billion dollars of DACs, if I'm trading high value items of any sort and market security is really such a concern, I'm probably going to do it in a safe zone. Additionally, the developers have stated that there will be multiple safe zones spread throughout the galaxy that would allow for there to major safe-zone market hubs in every region (region is kind of a loose term here but you get the picture).

 

For the other arguments, that lootable DACs will result in hatred or people quitting the game, I think that is unfounded. As NQ has said, we are all adults here (or at least we should be) and we should be able to manage risk. This is not a game for children. I'm reminded of the ever present argument in EVE over the concept of suicide ganking. Many people insist that ganking is driving people away from the game because they can't handle the danger. And yet, when CCP ran the numbers, it turned out that new players who were ganked within their first week of play had a much HIGHER retention rate than those didn't! The sense of risk gave value to the experience. Now I'm not saying that everyone start ganking each other all the time, but there is a difference between reasonable protecting people from unreasonable risk and unreasonably protecting people from reasonable risk. It makes the game boring and people go play something more exciting (like getting ganked in EVE haha).

 

DACs should be unlootable until a proper redemption system can be implemented. After that, I see no reason why they shouldn't be made lootable.

I totally agree. You buy DACs but it's not like you own them, it's like IRL, you need to save them in order to get something, it's part of the game... It's pretty hardcore but it's like that I would like the game to be.

And this is not breaking any law, as long as the user agrees with the EULA. The economic system will be richer will lootable DACs, of course with the possibility to store them. Imagine you steal someone's DACs he has on him and want to take them back to your safe place, you still possibly be chased, it's a way of creating conflict, and fun. For me, paying for DACs is like to bet, you bet you will be good enough to begin a good investment.

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After reading the arguments from both sides and giving likes to both of them (i was really unsure what the best course of action should be without losing to much gameplay potential and overall player satisfaction) i really think this is the best suggestion so far:

 

 

The devs decided to implement DACs because they wanted to prevent goldfarming. So I think that's all it should be. Allow player A to buy DACs from player B, who bought them from NQ. The DACs would become "soulbound" to player A. He cannot resell them. He must redeem them. DACs would not become another currency ingame, but they would still serve their purpose to combat goldfarming. Only those who need to use DACs for game time would buy them, so they would redeem the DACs immediately, making being lootable, or not, irrelevant.

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Why aren't credits lootable?

 

If we're doing this for "emergent gameplay" maybe credits and master blueprints SHOULD be lootable.

 

We can rename the game "Grand Theft Online"

 

And probably draw another 2 million in pledges

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