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A LETTER FROM OUR CREATIVE DIRECTOR - discussion thread


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3 hours ago, Saedow said:

What is the point in playing at this stage??? We NEED to know what will be wiped... because I want to start on a major building project (with all the honeycomb I cleaned up for NQ...) but still no news. Will we have build are cities and bases for nothing??? will our ships be taken away from us? will our major mining sites be lost which we spent hours and hours and hours to find? Will we loose our stockpiles of fuel? elements? talents? grrrrrr 🤬 and what about our schematics and our quanta??? I was going to spend more than a 150 million in quanta for specific schematics, but what's the point? 🤬🤬🤬 Sure we can keep our blueprints..... but I don't want to spend a HALF YEAR mining ore and creating sufficient honeycomb to be able to rebuild what I have NOW!!!!!!

expect talent and creative (not regular) blueprints. everything else, bye bye. its a game, and it has unknowns, that doens't mean it can't be fun, but < that, doens't mean I think NQ knows what their plans are, or what they are doing, probably game development? 

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Also, will you be doing the sensible thing and deferring the wipe until after the disruptive changes you have planned in that letter?  Power systems for constructs sounds like something which has the potential to require a construct redesign while planet-based PvP is the sort of thing which could require people to completely re-locate.  It's going to be really annoying to have everything wiped, rebuild and then have everything invalidated for a second time by the next wave of disruptive change.

 

Most of my constructs still don't work at the moment because you haven't even fixed the stacking element checker and it thinks my constructs are cheating when they aren't.  That's been going on a long time.  The PvP ones were broken by all the speed changes and many need a complete re-think.  The ones that work are broken by the radar change which nobody asked for and which doesn't seem to advance anything.  I could spend a long time re-making them all for the current rules, but why would I do that if the power change will break them all over again?

 

In that context I'm not massively excited about being able to keep a bunch of useless core BPs ...

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12 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Also, will you be doing the sensible thing and deferring the wipe until after the disruptive changes you have planned in that letter?

I wish they would wipe today, now, asap. I want to start building the empire again.

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Interesting that they didn't mention talents in the list of things that we can be sure won't be wiped.

 

Looks like talents are on the table.

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5 hours ago, Hazaatan said:

Then why have fuel?  

Fuel or power, but not both.  Makes no sense.  Unless power is a tier 5 upgrade to be superior to fuel but with limitations on ship design.  Not both.

Fuel feeds your engines, power feeds your shields, adjustors, radar, brakes, the motors in weapon turrets, the motors in ailerons, doors, electronics... and you probably need some minimum capacity spared for your engines' ignition/control/cooling systems.

 

More importantly, it will break people's suspension of disbelief less than arbitrary complexity or element caps that tend to show up in build-your-own-ship games once said game's devs realize players like to ignore the "why not" in favor of "because I can", and it will serve as a balance mechanic for pvp.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Interesting that they didn't mention talents in the list of things that we can be sure won't be wiped.

 

Looks like talents are on the table.


Of course they are. We're years ahead on talents than anyone who'd come to play at launch, who'd expect a fresh game (since, hey, the game just launched). A wiped game will give the impression of a fresh world to inhabit. And let's be realistic, it'll drive anyone with any competitive sense away to hear that they already missed out big time because they didn't spend money on this game years ago. There is no way anyone would be willing to pick up a freshly launched game when they hear that quite some players are 2 years ahead of them in trained talents.

If they don't wipe at all, then it's a different horse. They'd come into a game world they know is already inhabited and has been so for years. And with that comes the understanding that the players who comitted to inhabiting this world before them will also be vastly ahead in progress. That's kinda what we have now, any new player right now is well aware of all the players that came before them, that it enables them to buy all kinds of stuff on the market, because players trailblazed ahead to make buying everything possible.

With a wipe, we all start from scratch. Everyone needs everything for themselves or their orgs mainly. Everyone will be in the gold rush, everyone will be building. But with 2 years worth of talents on some of all the people digging through the dirt again, they will have a clear advantage that wont feel fair. We'll all be back in the dirt but us backers will be vastly overpowering the newbies and leave them in the dirt, and that will make it feel unfair to them

Edited by Metsys
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3 hours ago, space_man said:

Maybe they'll sell the Voxel IP? Maybe they have sold it. Hard to say with private companies, who don't communicate that well.

As their voxel engine is based on an existing paper from 2002, I somehow doubt they own the IP to he tech.

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The thing is that if NQ only lets core BPs persist across a wipe, it effectively IS a full/global wipe and that is omething they have actually said they woudl not want to do again unleess absolutely required (which it is not). SO I'm still expecting a wipe with core BPS and talent points returned to the pool. And I also can't believe that NQ has not yet decided on that, that is something which simply does not make any sense, even for NQ.

NQ is not in a position to do a full wipe when they have charged subscriptions for two years, they must let what effectively represents that time (the talent points) persist across a wipe.

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5 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

NQ is not in a position to do a full wipe when they have charged subscriptions for two years, they must let what effectively represents that time (the talent points) persist across a wipe.

This.

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Resources worth nothing because you never broke any modules. You can lost your ship only if you want. Why you are planing to add recyclers?
- you craft modules and sell it mostly to new players, old players already have everything. There actually no working resource drain mechanics in this game
- plasma not worth it to fight, also because corp who owns plasma decide when to defend -- single powerful corp will own everything.
- asteroid fights not worth it. And you need to leave your ship when mining, so enemies easy to destroy you. You can't even know when someone is close to you.
After wipe nothing will change in long distance. For few monthes it will be lack of resources, and then again you will not require anything from market and everything will be overproducted.

You need to create situations when almost everyone will be shot, or will shoot -- and it will be on daily basis. A lot of 1v1 situations. Ideally Player vs NPC also -- it's easiest way and most fun.
PvP needed for pve players also, it will create market for modules, for ships, for resources

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3 hours ago, Metsys said:


Of course they are. We're years ahead on talents than anyone who'd come to play at launch, who'd expect a fresh game (since, hey, the game just launched). A wiped game will give the impression of a fresh world to inhabit. And let's be realistic, it'll drive anyone with any competitive sense away to hear that they already missed out big time because they didn't spend money on this game years ago.

 

Completely agree, I think it’s very likely that most talent points will be wiped. They may allow us to keep a couple of months worth at most.

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14 hours ago, spacecat said:

AND what day would that be when you could give us "more concrete" news on a reset???? Could you perhaps tell us that??? Yall are trying to address the problem without addressing the problem, and every time you release a statement that is not an answer to the wipe but  another "we are still discussing it" you prove that point. Once again you have released a statement that is no statement. I have been a subscriber since the first beta weekend and have never been more frustrated. I know there are plenty of people who have supported this game longer but I think most of us want to know that answer to only one question more than any other. You are looking to things that will release when? after launch? before launch? that wasn't answered. I finally canceled auto renewal on all three of my accounts because there IS NO POINT IN PLAYING when we don't know the future or even about when these plans will be in place. I would love to play this game with my friends when we have a goal. but as long as the "reset" (wipe) is uncertain there is no goal I can think of that may or may not be wiped. 

 

You may not care but you will get no more money from me until you answer those questions. 

I have never spent more time on a game than I have with DU and this is so frustrating and upsetting. I am not yelling as I type, just sad. 

 

Seriously... He just literally said if there's a reset you can keep blueprints and possibly some other stuff. That's more than enough clarity to decide if it's worth playing right now or not. If your main goal is to earn quantas in the game, you probably shouldn't bother. If you want to create stuff, go ahead and spend everything you got on it. For me it's more than enough news. Be grateful for the news we got and don't keep complaining. A general wipe will (and must) come at some point before release, otherwise new players have zero chance of becoming meaningful in this game. It's just common sense. So keep in mind that there will very likely be a wipe and you will keep your BP's at least. That's it, that's the news. Adjust your playing style to it, or put the game aside, but just stop complaining.

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9 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I'd say your average combustion engine car would beg to differ, they will require both fuel and a battery to start at least and your car radio still does not run on fuel.. it requires electricity. Now, it's obviously possible, if not likely that the engine will in fact generate the electricity required as it runs, and charge said batteries, but you still need both.

Are you being serious? 

Go run your fuel car, with no fuel.  Fuel turns the alternator and charges the battery.  The fuel does the work.  Your car, runs on fuel.  Fuel = running car.   Battery does not equal running car, in a car that runs on fuel.  

A tesla has no fuel.  It runs on power.  Power = running car.   Fuel does not equal running car in a battery powered car.

Hybrids are overly expensive abominations that have all the down sides of electric cars and are dependent on..... fuel.

 

The devs are not talking about adding bigger alternators to the engines to support your sound system.  They are clearly talking about a separate power source. 

If you take the battery, motor, and electrical components of a tesla and shove it into a dodge ram to add it to the fuel system and fuel engine, it would be an abomination, it would make no sense.  Do that to a passenger plane and it becomes the most inefficient flying machine.  All battery or all fuel but not both.

I get you want to defend the system.  But don't do what your doing here.  You're cherry picking tiny pieces of a big puzzle to win an argument.

 

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4 hours ago, Metsys said:


Конечно, они есть. Мы на годы опережаем по талантам всех, кто пришел играть при запуске, кто ожидал свежей игры (поскольку, эй, игра только что вышла). Стертая игра создаст впечатление нового мира для жизни. И давайте будем реалистами, любого, у кого есть хоть какое-то чувство соперничества, отпугнет слух, что они уже упустили много времени, потому что не тратили деньги на эту игру много лет назад. Никто не захочет брать только что выпущенную игру, когда узнает, что некоторые игроки опережают их на 2 года по обученным талантам.

Если вообще не протирают, то это другой конь. Они попадут в игровой мир, который, как они знают, уже населен уже много лет. И вместе с этим приходит понимание того, что игроки, решившие заселить этот мир до них, также значительно продвинутся вперед. Что-то вроде того, что мы имеем сейчас, любой новый игрок прямо сейчас хорошо знает всех игроков, которые были до него, что это позволяет им покупать все виды вещей на рынке, потому что игроки проложили путь вперед, чтобы купить все возможное.

С вайпом мы все начинаем с нуля. Каждому нужно все для себя или своей организации в основном. Все будут в золотой лихорадке, все будут строить. Но с двумя годами талантов на некоторых из всех людей, снова копающихся в грязи, у них будет явное преимущество, которое не будет казаться справедливым. Мы все вернемся в грязь, но мы, сторонники, будем значительно подавлять новичков и оставлять их в грязи, и это заставит их чувствовать себя несправедливо.

 

Its MMO

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10 hours ago, Metsys said:


These are digital goods that you didn't pay to own. You pay to access them. None of this you have any ownership rights to. They could decide to shut down the game tomorrow and all you have would be gone too. You have no legal grounds. You WILLINGLY pay money to play this game in early access and they never gave you any written contractual statement that they wont wipe. The hours you put into the game can be chalked up as your enjoyment out of this early access title that you paid for.

Please don't clown yourself with wild statements about lawyers and legality like this

Legally I am sure there are many things NQ can do. But they are also things that would kill the already bad reputation NQ has among players, and guarantee the death of the game.

 

I.e players are paying customers, and NQ must act accordingly if they plan on keeping existing customers and attract new ones.

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2 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

I.e players are paying customers, and NQ must act accordingly if they plan on keeping existing customers and attract new ones.

Or maybe they rather sacrifice one stubborn and continuously complaining veteran player to give a fair chance to 10 new (paying) players who could be excited about the game and invite their friends as well... I would say that is "acting accordingly" too

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Taelessael said:

Fuel feeds your engines, power feeds your shields, adjustors, radar, brakes, the motors in weapon turrets, the motors in ailerons, doors, electronics... and you probably need some minimum capacity spared for your engines' ignition/control/cooling systems.

 

More importantly, it will break people's suspension of disbelief less than arbitrary complexity or element caps that tend to show up in build-your-own-ship games once said game's devs realize players like to ignore the "why not" in favor of "because I can", and it will serve as a balance mechanic for pvp.

We are playing a futuristic space game.  The thought of slapping a bigger alternator into my space ship just does not compute.  

The Enterprise runs on ion engines.   Why not introduce ion engines?? tier 1-3 space only, with tier 4-5 able to work in atmosphere. Then we can do away with engines and wings and start building some true spaceships.

Making it a tier 5 upgrade that runs on fuel cells, so we have to mine for uranium and plutonium, and making fuel engines and fuel extremely inefficient.  One connection per fuel tank, lower the amount the fuel tanks can hold, increase fuel consumption, lower the amount of power on all engines, add weight to the wings. 

Something that makes sense in a futuristic space game. 

I'm getting nightmare visons of going to autozone, in the year 7474, in a beat up space ship to pick up my new 12000 amp alternator to finally bump my 100 million quanta subwoofers... 

 

are we being serious?  how is this 'power' going to scale?  with the engines?  the core?  how is the core getting so much power?  Does it run out?  If the core has so much power, why not run the ship on power alone?

Edited by Hazaatan
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"Power" is already in game.

At this point it is very important to use accurate terms.

 

All starts from "energy". We have already multiple energy sources;

- minerals -> fuels are producing energy for current propulsion engines. Note: Energy source here is ore/minerals 

- gravity -> creates kinetic energy

- also all engines do create kinetic energy, which is preserved and used by constructs.

 

First what we are missing is electricity. I do not see it as a "power" it is one form of "energy."

(I've studied these things but At this point I'm on thin ice because English is not my native language So let me know if "power" is synonym for "electricity")

 

How electricity is generated and distributed on dynamic constructs creates interesting game-play if implemented well. But it must be done right. I think most important thing to remember is that all ships do already have powerful energy sources in forms of fuel and engines.

 

What energy sources for statics and space constructs will be in future is also important. Do we have solar energy, geothermal energy, nuclear... etc.

 

Energy (power) related game play is most welcome, but @NQ please do this right. Do your homework in due diligence and after that introduce credible energy systems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Iamhole said:

take my money take my stuff remove all the hard work i did building my maze tunnels and buildings above ground, but leave me my skills.

 

Let me ask: If you knew for a fact that keeping your skills results in less new players, how many players are you comfortable in losing to keep your skills?

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How should I say this nicely...

 

I appreciate the attempt by an NQ employ to keep communicating, trying to give hope to players with 'concerns'. But... For a lot of us, the announcement on the 14th of April 2022 was a complete showstopper and that is now 8 weeks ago, almost two months. A continued lack of clarity and an apparent ability to make decisions on NQs part is not filling me with confidence. It's also eating up my paid subscriptions because I'm not playing due to the sudden lack of a 'persistent' universe, the 'promise' of DU. And while the Talent Points keep accruing, there is no clarity on whether we'll keep (all of) them.

 

Any 'hope' I had of a relatively quick resolution on the issue of wipe or no wipe (and what exactly) has gone out of the window with this letter to the community. And even then, NQ has shown time and time again (during the beta), that what they announce and what actually happens can often be two completely different things. So for me, the actual wipe/launch date is the only 'proof' of what happens. That seems awfully far away, a couple of my accounts run til the end of January 2023 and I honestly have the impression that those accounts will expire before we have an actual wipe/launch...

 

Instead of giving me hope and confidence, this letter leaves me disappointed, annoyed, and a little angry. I'm seriously starting to doubt the sanity of the person/collective that made the announcement on the 14th of April.

 

Initially I had the idea to test some cheap builds and BPO them for relaunch (in the hope we keep those), but with all the changes upon changes that keep getting rolled out. Anything I build now, might not work at all at relaunch, so why bother? It's not as if the 'gameloops' themselves are fun and satisfactory in themselves...

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24 minutes ago, Hazaatan said:

We are playing a futuristic space game.  The thought of slapping a bigger alternator into my space ship just does not compute.  

The Enterprise runs on ion engines.   Why not introduce ion engines?? tier 1-3 space only, with tier 4-5 able to work in atmosphere. Then we can do away with engines and wings and start building some true spaceships.

Making it a tier 5 upgrade that runs on fuel cells, so we have to mine for uranium and plutonium, and making fuel engines and fuel extremely inefficient.  One connection per fuel tank, lower the amount the fuel tanks can hold, increase fuel consumption, lower the amount of power on all engines, add weight to the wings. 

Something that makes sense in a futuristic space game. 

I'm getting nightmare visons of going to autozone, in the year 7474, in a beat up space ship to pick up my new 12000 amp alternator to finally bump my 100 million quanta subwoofers... 

 

are we being serious?  how is this 'power' going to scale?  with the engines?  the core?  how is the core getting so much power?  Does it run out?  If the core has so much power, why not run the ship on power alone?

 

Exactly

 

Despite of my post about credible energy systems and using right technical terms I agree by 100% that if implementing only current technical solutions into SCIFI game will be mistake.

 

Is our imagination too limited. (me included)

 

We should stop thinking and arguing about what is not possible versus our current knowledge about tech in use now at 2022.

 

We must think about what can be possible when we arrive at Alioth

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hazaatan said:

Let me ask: If you knew for a fact that keeping your skills results in less new players, how many players are you comfortable in losing to keep your skills?

none, i dont see the issue, the way the forums read there is only 300 of us actually playing the game, so having a few people with skills when we go live will help the newbs coming to the game and allows us to help with directed training, having more talents than a new player is not game breaking. I cant see someone not playing just because i spent 2 years training before they joined up. Anyway, unless you tell people how many talent points you have no one will ever know. keeping my talent points is my reward for paying all that cash into the Dual Universe system to enable it to be launched. 

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