Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Yeah, it seems like JC/NQ completly nod understand how "cities" in games work (still endlessly putting up front as game feature). I even suspect they never played game where it was the working case.


I consider this my area of expertise (SADLY), because I spent long years in MC as player/gm/cm/events guy/admin and everything in between. And people were trying to build "cities" (collective habitats so to say) all the time in all ways possible. Its relativly worked, when beefed up with enough support systems (useful logistics, working economy, pvp dangers, social mods to spice collective things) -- that generated actual reasons to regulary congregate -- failed in other cases. I dare say I know if not everything, but awful lot about this mechanics and player behaivors/interction patterns. 


Yet, obviously there is no way I can meaningfully translate even bit of my experience into feedback/ideas/things loop NQ established currently. So I kinda given up on being good feedbacking guy and gone rogue.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 56
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

A classic case of vision getting in the way of good game design (also known as fun). This is a post about what civilization is / can be in Dual Universe, and perhaps what went wrong. Before diving in,

and we got it because people that had 0 experience in PVP cried that "xs cores are overpowered" so they got double nerfed(guns + lock range). Now they will cry it's too expensive to get into pvp...

No, such gating is counter-productive, because "invested" people just go 10 accounts and will not give much muck about it. This is root mistake of 0.23.   Key is not in characters, but in pl

It has been said a million times already, but without specialization you can't really have cooperation and a long lasting game.

I ofc love that I can be a pilot, a miner, an industrialist and a builder, but it's honestly counter productive for the game longevity becouse first I only need myself, and second I can achieve everything in a relatively small amount of time (for a solo ofc). I find it weird that I can potentially have engame items this early into the game, the path from the basic speeder to an hauler capable of carrying kilotons it's really too short, to make a comparison imagine if we could make a raid of 300ppl and go naxx 1 month into wow vanilla.

We probably need more dependencies from talents (eg you can't use XL space engines until you get space engines lvl 5) and a separate tech tree with researchs for individual components, I might specialize in metallurgy and make screws and pipes, but I need you couse you are specialized in making alloys, and you need him because he knows how to refine ores, and so on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

We probably need more dependencies from talents...

No, such gating is counter-productive, because "invested" people just go 10 accounts and will not give much muck about it. This is root mistake of 0.23.

 

Key is not in characters, but in players -- they need to have motivations to be specialized not as character, but as players, with them finding their long-lasting gameplay niche, activities and ambitions they are gunuinly want to do. This something DU quite fails to provide right now for big chunk of population.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

Yeah, it seems like JC/NQ completly nod understand how "cities" in games work (still endlessly putting up front as game feature). I even suspect they never played game where it was the working case.

 

True .. and expect NQ will find a way to bring in their idea of "cities".. If need be by getting this outsources to paid actors to then use that as "look what great work is being done in game"..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why they are not looking to City Building systems that worked like SWG. A city leveled up and had facilities and function that did not exist outside a city. This could be implemented via TCUs. I think this is a fundamental flaw in their approach to making a "Civilization Building" MMO with zero city building features.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

The solution NQ will adopt for "city building" will likely be hiring designers to "play the game" and design cities from where they can go (cue a French accent)  "see.. how cool is this, great to see what fantastic thing you can build in DU"

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2021 at 8:34 AM, IvanGrozniy said:

 

  1. Safe Zones: seriously.. is Sanc Moon not enough? The game lacks any danger and people just stop playing because of tedium and burn out. You won't believe how hard it is to convince people to gather into PVP events in this game because they're just too bored of it, it has zero consequence. Sanc moon is a sanctuary moon. That is its purpose.

 

Sanctuary moon is a shithole though. If I were stuck on that bland boring place for PvE I just wouldn't play. Why do you want to force ppl who want to play a different way into playing a lesser game?

 

Sounds like you're a PvPer who wants to force PvE types to be victims by forcing them to play in a little corner that's so restricting and offers nothing so they cave and enter the PvP zone as fodder. Same old selfish PvP arguments.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2021 at 4:33 PM, le_souriceau said:

Agree with @XKentX on NQ inconsistency as one of root causes of current mess. Just dig little bit deeper into their history and JCs endless talks to spot a lot of huge "U-turns" (PvP, starting conditions, other critical systems/concepts).

 

Like this particular interview from 2016 quite a goldmine:

 

https://www.gamerpros.co/exclusive-interview-novaquark-ceo-jean-christophe-baillie-mmo-dual-universe/

 

 

 

what's this? JC talked about some ideas of what the safe zone would look like to some random journalist which had changed while in development? sacre bleu! Novaquark must be imprisoned for this clear false advertising!

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ving said:

Sanctuary moon is a shithole though. If I were stuck on that bland boring place for PvE I just wouldn't play. Why do you want to force ppl who want to play a different way into playing a lesser game?

I agree with you.

But ppl don't agree will tell you argument that this is not a PVE game. And that the game you want to play is not what DU is.

 

While I partially agree with them, I think PVP should be "forced", to players, by economical choice. Any player risking his skin in a PVP zone should get a huge economical reward.

But saying that PVP is mandatory and if you don't like it, don't play, sucks.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ving said:

 

Sanctuary moon is a shithole though. If I were stuck on that bland boring place for PvE I just wouldn't play. Why do you want to force ppl who want to play a different way into playing a lesser game?

 

Sounds like you're a PvPer who wants to force PvE types to be victims by forcing them to play in a little corner that's so restricting and offers nothing so they cave and enter the PvP zone as fodder. Same old selfish PvP arguments.

Nah I get where you're coming from. Say, what if the new system that's coming is all pvp, no safe zones? System Zero (current system) can be a safe zone. The reason why I'm pushing for less safe zones is because DU needs danger. Civilization emerged in a very large extent due to danger, from environment and especially from neighbors. I'm not against pve or safezones, but I really don't want DU to end up with cities no one needs to be in. That is currently what is happening. You can avoid all pvp in the game entirely with ease, just don't fly in the pipe. People do everything by themselves. No need to group up to gain more forces. 

 

So no, I don't want pvers and builders in a corner. I want what they build to matter. Without danger it does not matter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

NQ managed to develop the Minecraft aspect of DU pretty well. The Factorio/Satisfactory and Kerbal Space Program aspects are semi-decent. They couldn't quite nail the Eve aspect. There is currently not enough content in the game to emerge fights, alliances, piracy, betrayals, etc., on a daily and sustainable basis. Even if there was, the PvP experience is inadequate. The game mechanics provide no reason to get "organized" and "civilized". In fact, players running organizations are behind of players who spend the same amount of hours to solo-play. Numerous features are missing to make the game barely playable. Making a complete list would have been a big effort on its own.

 

Naturally we didn't have months of patience for a game launched in this state. I currently lost my apetite with DU. And yes, the "no wipes" promise pretty much launches the game. 

 

If they have 2 years of more funds to keep going, and the beta launch was more about early-testing whether the tech works with truly committing players; then launching the game this early might have been the right choice. Even then there are issues like people getting rich/ahead with bugs and NQ not having the manpower to police their game.

 

If they have to launch by the end of 2021 the game will not be developed enough to be widely played.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I spoke with a little streamer again tonight who plays with a group of a few people.
At the beginning so motivated that they wanted to do everything by themselves, the projects progressed then the weariness of their group as planned.
Now that they have made their main base, their piece of industry, a few ships and their showroom. What's left for them to do?

Nothing the turn of the game was over for. They are leaving now ... DU is still losing players who have been hyped.

If you are not a LUA or voxel artist, boredom happens very quickly ...

We need that promised PvP, let us have a little fun. Give us areas to attack and defend with huge amounts of resources and we're doing massive things/impresive in this game.

PvP won't prevent huge city creation just for the LULZ or to show off its power / abundance of resources ...

The one and only have keep the player these are interplayer events which keep motivated the last meager troops remaining in the game.

It is starting to become urgent to act.
More control of players, end of markets managed by bots and PvP everywhere outside Madis / thades / alioth area.
Only a few months to act before losing the most loyal ones (the new ones only stay 2 or 3 weeks ...)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some amazing good points last few posts. They need to integrate pvp and fast.  Look I know there are builders but even those wont support this game for years on a sub. But pvpers will. They do in eve. Hell I know people that sub 6+ accounts and only log in a couple times a month for fleet fights.  Building in a safe zone will only keep those people interested so long, because there is no reason for anyone to live in their city!!! NONE! 

 

If the builders wont understand, building in the pvp zone benefits them. It gives purpose. People need purpose. Ya sometimes you might lose your shit, but that's part of the fun. And if you truly love building (not just the end result) then it's just part of the loop. Even ships only need to be built once now with BPs and repair units.

 

These "pve'rs" don't realize they need pvp, cause it provides an endless loop and gives them purpose, making cities that matter that hold important resources and a reason to group up to protect it.  With a good reputation a person could outsource their skills to build outposts in pvp land.

 

PURPOSE!!!!! Without it, we end up with DU as it is its current state, and that's clearly showing that that isnt cutting it.

 

Purpose. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:

Nah I get where you're coming from. Say, what if the new system that's coming is all pvp, no safe zones? System Zero (current system) can be a safe zone. The reason why I'm pushing for less safe zones is because DU needs danger. Civilization emerged in a very large extent due to danger, from environment and especially from neighbors. I'm not against pve or safezones, but I really don't want DU to end up with cities no one needs to be in. That is currently what is happening. You can avoid all pvp in the game entirely with ease, just don't fly in the pipe. People do everything by themselves. No need to group up to gain more forces. 

 

So no, I don't want pvers and builders in a corner. I want what they build to matter. Without danger it does not matter.

OK, fair enough, that makes sense. As long as the PvE areas are interesting enough for those that don't want to engage, I agree, the rest of the PvP world needs to have incentive to make the danger worthwhile. I'm not saying I won't ever engage in PvP, I just want it to be a choice not a necessity.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

 Look I know there are builders but even those wont support this game for years on a sub. But pvpers will.

Say what now? That just doesn’t make sense. 
 

I sub for lots of things that don’t have PvP in it: Evernote, MS Office, Adobe CC, GitHub. 

 
And I intend to have 3 accounts in this game if the prices don’t rise. 

 

You then go on to contradict yourself by saying builders would build in the PvP zone, anyway. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Some amazing good points last few posts. They need to integrate pvp and fast.  Look I know there are builders but even those wont support this game for years on a sub. But pvpers will. They do in eve. Hell I know people that sub 6+ accounts and only log in a couple times a month for fleet fights.  Building in a safe zone will only keep those people interested so long, because there is no reason for anyone to live in their city!!! NONE! 

 

If the builders wont understand, building in the pvp zone benefits them. It gives purpose. People need purpose. Ya sometimes you might lose your shit, but that's part of the fun. And if you truly love building (not just the end result) then it's just part of the loop. Even ships only need to be built once now with BPs and repair units.

 

These "pve'rs" don't realize they need pvp, cause it provides an endless loop and gives them purpose, making cities that matter that hold important resources and a reason to group up to protect it.  With a good reputation a person could outsource their skills to build outposts in pvp land.

 

PURPOSE!!!!! Without it, we end up with DU as it is its current state, and that's clearly showing that that isnt cutting it.

 

Purpose. 

PvP is coming to the game and always has been, there is a big issue though with launching without it or even a clear roadmap of how it will be included.  We are playing the game as live but a key part of it (any real risk) is missing.  So people are judging a half finished game as a finished product, not sure how they are going to get around it now.  Painted themselves into a bit of a corner.........

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Say what now? That just doesn’t make sense. 
 

I sub for lots of things that don’t have PvP in it: Evernote, MS Office, Adobe CC, GitHub. 

 
And I intend to have 3 accounts in this game if the prices don’t rise. 

 

You then go on to contradict yourself by saying builders would build in the PvP zone, anyway. 

 

 

Even if builders don't build in the PvP zone and only in the safe zone, adding PvP will be a great thing.

To believe that the PvP community wants 100% PvP everywhere and prevent you from building / playing is wrong.

To begin with, we are not asking for much.

Just a small isolated planet open in PvP, with T4 / T5 ores.
A fairly simplistic balancing : container linked deactivated, AGG deactivated, planet with 20 G of gravity and this will limit the harvest of the ore.

This will not impact PvE players in any way. And will let PvP players finally have a little fun.

Unless it is you who absolutely want to forbid me to play and have fun on this game?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Even if builders don't build in the PvP zone and only in the safe zone, adding PvP will be a great thing.

To believe that the PvP community wants 100% PvP everywhere and prevent you from building / playing is wrong.

To begin with, we are not asking for much.

Just a small isolated planet open in PvP, with T4 / T5 ores.
A fairly simplistic balancing : container linked deactivated, AGG deactivated, planet with 20 G of gravity and this will limit the harvest of the ore.

This will not impact PvE players in any way. And will let PvP players finally have a little fun.

Unless it is you who absolutely want to forbid me to play and have fun on this game?

im sorry but white a number of PvPers believe and have stated that the safe zone is arbitrary, and should be abolished. As should safe warp travel. That sounds to me like 100% PvP. 
 

but what you are asking for seems far more balanced. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, GraXXoR said:

im sorry but white a number of PvPers believe and have stated that the safe zone is arbitrary, and should be abolished. As should safe warp travel. That sounds to me like 100% PvP. 
 

but what you are asking for seems far more balanced. 

Warp is never meant to be safe travel, AT ALL.  They have even stated so.  All warp does is reduce your travel time. Its not a get out of pvp free card, or wont be soon enough.  And the VAST majority of pvpers dont want to "abolish" the safe zone.  They want the outer planet safe zones removed as was said it would be that way from back in the kickstarter and "high tier ore would be risky to get".  For someone who visits the forums frequently, you sure dont know shit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Warp is never meant to be safe travel, AT ALL.  They have even stated so.  All warp does is reduce your travel time. Its not a get out of pvp free card, or wont be soon enough.  And the VAST majority of pvpers dont want to "abolish" the safe zone.  They want the outer planet safe zones removed as was said it would be that way from back in the kickstarter and "high tier ore would be risky to get".  For someone who visits the forums frequently, you sure dont know shit.

I haven't been around that long, but wasn't the safe zone much smaller originally as well? From the posts I've read about how the game has evolved, it seems like a lot of the original kickstarter design goals have changed over time. From your experience with pvp how much would removing the outer planet safe zones actually improve things? If people continue to enter/leave planets in different directions until they reach warp distance, wouldn't everyone still be too spread out to have frequent pvp engagements?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the key to making the Civilization aspect of the game work will be COUNTRY BORDERS.

 

Let a Corp set territory lines based on $$ upkeep and territory claimed. 

The air space in the zone is your safe zone (now military has something to protect and patrol) 

Give legates control over these zones and tools to blow unauthorized ships out of the sky who ignore warnings

Now players have a reason to join a corp and group up together. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fiddlybits said:

I haven't been around that long, but wasn't the safe zone much smaller originally as well? From the posts I've read about how the game has evolved, it seems like a lot of the original kickstarter design goals have changed over time. From your experience with pvp how much would removing the outer planet safe zones actually improve things? If people continue to enter/leave planets in different directions until they reach warp distance, wouldn't everyone still be too spread out to have frequent pvp engagements?

What you see now, is the most pvp zone we have ever had.  In late alpha 3 the was a small circle pvp 50su long that was it. Beta hit and its what we have now.  But kickstarter and many videos promising "only sanc moon and some of alioth safe" and that higher tier ores "t3-t5" would be in a pvp zone. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

What you see now, is the most pvp zone we have ever had.  In late alpha 3 the was a small circle pvp 50su long that was it. Beta hit and its what we have now.  But kickstarter and many videos promising "only sanc moon and some of alioth safe" and that higher tier ores "t3-t5" would be in a pvp zone. 

In retrospective I think they just ultra-overdone on this "new player experience" update. Sure there was some reasonable feedback (from Alpha) to make it smoother, but NQ took it to x10 level + probably also mixed with some fantasies about chipping of more mainstream audience if game is more... safe and all this.

 

This multi-layered ez-mode heavly damaged both economy (because experienced players took full advantage of it -- suprise!) and meaningful pvp in long run (no reason to risk anything -- obvious too). Yet not helped much in growing or keeping player base.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...