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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


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5 minutes ago, DylanHunt said:

That's because video games changed in some categories so much. A new kind of video games is to build a virtual world of your own imagination and many others at the same place and the same time. If you play around with photoshop to create a nice desktop wallpaper for example and for some reason it would take one year every day a few hours. And then at the end you want to back up it to have this amazing piece of your own creativity forever, but photoshop tells you, they have to redo their software, and you can not back up your file. And now consider you have created this wallpaper together with friends in all that year. A very intense time.

And now you want to compare that with playing video games ?
No offense, but not sure how a "modern content creation" games can be compared to older video games.
And now consider a "player driven content game" where the player can't keep their content......
THAT what makes me want to cry ^^
 

 

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Does not matter if it was kickstarter founder, backer or subscription money.

What is important is that players spent real money to play in a persistent MMO, as promised by NQ.

 

And it was NQ that made the decision to proclaim that the beta would be a "soft-release" and the "last wipe", so that they could start charging subscriptions for an unfinished game. And players have invested both time and money accordingly.

 

du_persistent.png.959bf1a5236b0c896e098853a04a0c02.png

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Yeah I'm sure you've been exclusively playing games where progress is gated by timers that can not be completed in an evening gaming session, for 30 years. Go cry in a corner but spare me the protestant work ethics.

 

 

 

I don't care if some got rich illegitimately, because like 4 days into launch there were allready huge balancing issues and I made a conscious choice back then to focus on my progress and what I can do, and that I'm not going to put it in question everytime there is a new ooopsie.

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10 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

Yeah I'm sure you've been exclusively playing games where progress is gated by timers that can not be completed in an evening gaming session, for 30 years. Go cry in a corner but spare me the protestant work ethics.

 

 

 

I don't care if some got rich illegitimately, because like 4 days into launch there were allready huge balancing issues and I made a conscious choice back then to focus on my progress and what I can do, and that I'm not going to put it in question everytime there is a new ooopsie.

Not, i played in alot games were you lose your progress wen you you leave the game, you dead , some one destroy you, or game wipe, and i learned enjoy the way, and no stick to a false ilusion of persistence. Nothing persist forever.

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11 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

Oh I'm sorry did I I just confuse DU for a roguelike my bad.

You confused a game to a real life project. 

MMO are not the real life, raise, and fall, and your progress banish

historyhuge.jpg

Edited by Sycopata
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43 minutes ago, Overstimuloredom said:

I don't care if some got rich illegitimately, because like 4 days into launch there were allready huge balancing issues and I made a conscious choice back then to focus on my progress and what I can do, and that I'm not going to put it in question everytime there is a new ooopsie.

 

Exact. It's the duty of the developer and the staff, to ban these exploiters and seize these illegitimate gains. A wipe to solve this is a lazy move.

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Am I the densest of MF who makes it a matter of personal pride to loose time on game?

 

 

Guess what if a game is objectively better by not savescumming I don't, if it isn't I do... Because guess what: RL prevails over some fake sense of accompmishement.

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1 hour ago, Modgud said:

The big problem are not the grind or exploits of the past. The real problem is how players used new features, like it never was intended. NQ has changed a lot in the last year. Every time a new thing was annouced the players have looked for a way to exploit it. That's okay in the sense of testing. But it hurts the game intention in a finished version. Why ? The "exploit" way is a cascade. Every advantage you gain from one patch rise the advantage on the next. And yes, same features are never was intended to be finished. There was/ is a first version to give NQ feedback to this topic. To remember: The game is in a beta. We are tester, not gamer. So it's ok to test and exploit something. Grind like hell to test the balancing of the game is ok too. But after this the developer must have the possibility to draw conclisions and fix the mess. In this sense: Full wipe pls.

 

Your complain is not the wipe, it's missing pvp activity. For this we need more players. A lot more new players.  With this the rare t4/t5 MU spots on planets are not enough and you will see more activities at the asteroids and in space.

For me, the Game was released already and claimed to be persistent. So now long after all these things happened like dupping and schem exploits we of a sudden need a wipe?

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1 hour ago, Sycopata said:

Every time someone uses the argument that they're going to lose their hard work, it makes me want to cry, I've been playing video games for 30 years, if I have to evaluate all the time spent on video games as work, something doesn't work.

Have you ever heard of a Korean grind MMO or the Grind in Warthunder? Listen if one of these games ever did a Wipe the outcry would be so epic one would hear about it on the news. Archage solved dwindling server populations by merging servers and making fresh start ones that later were merged into older ones. Why should this be an outlandish idea for DU when it is a common thing? But it seems that to nuke the server is the only thing they take into consideration from how it reads.

 

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1 hour ago, Sycopata said:

Not, i played in alot games were you lose your progress wen you you leave the game, you dead , some one destroy you, or game wipe, and i learned enjoy the way, and no stick to a false ilusion of persistence. Nothing persist forever.

"Nothing persist forever" 100% true !
But what about if the game developer tells you exactly this, his game will be persist ?
And uses this told fact to sell the game ?
Then you could feel a little confused, hearing about a wipe, huh ?

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26 minutes ago, DylanHunt said:

Then you could feel a little confused, hearing about a wipe, huh ?

 

There are clear rules on this in Germany:   
Anyone who advertises in a publicly misleading manner with untrue statements and thereby wants to create the appearance of a particularly favorable offer can be punished with a prison sentence of up to 2 years in accordance with §16 (1) of the German Unfair Competition Act.

An advertisement is always public if it can be perceived by a larger group of people. This means in particular that all Internet presences constitute public advertising. Anyone who deliberately makes statements that are provably and objectively untrue, thus creating the possibility of misleading people in order to present their offers in a particularly attractive way, is liable to prosecution.

§ 16 UWG - Einzelnorm (gesetze-im-internet.de)

 

Edited by Zarcata
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Could you please explain what you mean by balancing the economy?  I don't see the problem and would like to see some numbers and a summary of thoughts on this.  I don't have a lot of Quanta but get enough to be satisfied.  As for schematics, I am used to them and don't have an opinion right now.  I have bought several I have not put to use yet.  In my opinion, players need to learn to think differently about playing this game with a different perspective that it should be a different valid experience than other games they are used to.   They are not used to seeing the high level of hard work that goes into this one and need to raise their imagination on possibilities and their own problem-solving skills to be part of the game.  I think that fixing bugs and defects is important.  Remember there is a concept of a second universe that we should be able to travel into and you can make that better.  Instead of a legacy and new server that are totally disconnected, please consider some narrow connection between them as a way of doing this and allow new players to start on either server.    One thing I would like to see is for mining unit calibration to last much longer so that if some of us cannot play online for hours almost every day, we have a chance to spend some of our online time doing something else.  I would also like to see player market products and information listed on the J menu.  I personally am not artistically inclined and would like to develop friendships and opportunities with those that are in addition to ones with great ideas in the game like racing and team mission projects etc.   Everything should not be about killing and pirating - cooperation and comradery should be significantly more important along with adventuring and discovery.  There are plenty of other games for that.   Some of things to consider for the future is to implement the promised limited AI pets that are not a load on the server(s) because they involve either their own server or are part of client software.  I want a cat to put on my ships or perhaps a wolf.   Texture artists could be supported if you can figure out how to do that without lagging.  It gives a dimension to the game and there are many talented artists that can do that.  Applying textures to avatars or pets could be considered.   Living in a DU apartment would make more sense if we were not always in a spacesuit.  But that is something to think about years down the road.   I have certain game ideas I keep secret which could solve some problems you consider as I wish to be involved in game software design and implementation when I make it a priority.  I have quite a bit of experience in software and designing experiences although I am not artistically inclined.   

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

 

There are clear rules on this in Germany:   
Anyone who advertises in a publicly misleading manner with untrue statements and thereby wants to create the appearance of a particularly favorable offer can be punished with a prison sentence of up to 2 years in accordance with §16 (1) of the German Unfair Competition Act.

An advertisement is always public if it can be perceived by a larger group of people. This means in particular that all Internet presences constitute public advertising. Anyone who deliberately makes statements that are provably and objectively untrue, thus creating the possibility of misleading people in order to present their offers in a particularly attractive way, is liable to prosecution.

§ 16 UWG - Einzelnorm (gesetze-im-internet.de)

 

Thankfully NQ isn't operating out of Germany and or under its jurisdiction? :)

 

But yeah, I only played DU because it billed itself as a Persistent MMO. Charging a monthy sub... so to me it was 'launched' as a service, even if still in Beta. 

 

Being a persistent MMO is one of the only things that separates it from soooo many other games. Second to the scripting language, and voxel system. Beyond that the features are lacking compared to NMS, Avorian, Space Engineers, Elite, empyerion, etc.. where they don't have those key features that make DU unique but are still in the space games genere.  All of which I love, but keep coming back to DU for what makes it unique. 

 

I don't think NQ is done with massive game changes, even after release they may need to revamp a system and be arguably back at the same technical point where a wipe is the easy option....

 

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. -JFK 

 

Persistenance

 

adjective
  1. 1.
    continuing firmly or obstinately in a course of action in spite of difficulty or opposition.
Edited by BlindingBright
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17 minutes ago, BlindingBright said:

Thankfully NQ isn't operating out of Germany and or under its jurisdiction? :)

 

But yeah, I only played DU because it billed itself as a Persistent MMO. Charging a monthy sub... so to me it was 'launched' as a service, even if still in Beta. 

 

Being a persistent MMO is one of the only things that separates it from soooo many other games. Second to the scripting language, and voxel system. Beyond that the features are lacking compared to NMS, Avorian, Space Engineers, Elite, empyerion, etc.. where they don't have those key features that make DU unique but are still in the space games genere.  All of which I love, but keep coming back to DU for what makes it unique. 

 

I don't think NQ is done with massive game changes, even after release they may need to revamp a system and be arguably back at the same technical point where a wipe is the easy option....

 

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. -JFK 

 

Persistenance

 

adjective
  1. 1.
    continuing firmly or obstinately in a course of action in spite of difficulty or opposition.

If they are selling to and/or marketing to anyone in Germany they are subject to their consumer protection laws, as they are subject to US consumer production laws about false advertisement/etc as well. I not sure about its Germany counterpart, but the FTC has connections to most partner nations and does aggressively go after anyone if it effects a US citizen.

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It's corny still enjoyed the F out of that JFK quote...

 

Played many games you listed but never touched NMS thinking it was too ambitious and they wouldn't be able to deliver, I was much fonder of NQ's approach/marketing/lack thereof... Funny how that went,there is still time though.

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On 4/19/2022 at 2:41 AM, Shredder said:

The problem with talent points, is that (rightly or wrongly) they are viewed as a big advantage by people that don’t play DU, so will discourage a lot of joiners. The best thing for the game is to wipe them (yea I would be said to loose the 70millipn points I have/have paid for, but what’s that point is having them if the game is dead)

Its irrelevant want they think is "fair". They had the ENTIRE beta time they could of joined and gotten ahead. Them even removing/totally deleting our constructs without magic blueprints is a large breech of trust and a breech of what was promised to us coming from alpha into beta. The person who made those comments did so as an NQ employee in an official setting.

 

"If one party makes a statement or a promise that causes another party to rely on that statement in such a way that he or she is financially injured by that reliance, then a court will enforce the statement or promise as if it was a completed contract. The court does not need to find an agreement or consideration in order to enforce the promise like a contract, but it is difficult to prove a statement was made without a record of it."

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So what happens when there is a new bug that creates DAC duplication? 

A lot of the chatter and reasoning I see from NQ is around a wipe being a cure all to sins/bugs/exploits of the past...

 

Problem is these are not sins of the past they are the realities of running a live service based game and all I see so far is that if something happens post release the answer is to just wipe the game as that has been the answer in the past.

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In all fairness there are a lot more safeguards now. For example we have officially rules on exploiting, a dedicated support category for reporting them, better logging capabilities, and most importantly a PTS server to catch problems early. So while it is still possible for another exploit to one day sneak into the live server, NQ is more prepared to deal with it. Furthermore now that the rules actually exist, players will generally be less inclined to abuse clearly broken mechanics. 

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2 minutes ago, Msoul said:

In all fairness there are a lot more safeguards now. For example we have officially rules on exploiting, a dedicated support category for reporting them, better logging capabilities, and most importantly a PTS server to catch problems early. So while it is still possible for another exploit to one day sneak into the live server, NQ is more prepared to deal with it. Furthermore now that the rules actually exist, players will generally be less inclined to abuse clearly broken mechanics. 

 

Even at that time, where some of these exploits appeared, most of them were made public within the first days - i think nearly everybody would have understood, if the server was reset during the beta to a version prior to this. A backup from 3 days or even a week ago would have been totally fine.

But a complete wipe is, as i said before, a lazy move.

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36 minutes ago, Leppard said:

 

Even at that time, where some of these exploits appeared, most of them were made public within the first days - i think nearly everybody would have understood, if the server was reset during the beta to a version prior to this. A backup from 3 days or even a week ago would have been totally fine.

 

I agree. Most of the playerbase would have begrudgingly accepted a 2-3 day rollback. The problem is those earlier exploits were rather complex and could not be patched in such a short timeframe. A rollback without a fix would have been deemed more harmful by the community at large and sets a bad precedent. However rolling back weeks worth of progress would similarly be considered extremely harmful. NQ was caught in this unfortunate dilemma but thankfully they learned from this experience and implemented the PTS and the other measures I mentioned.

Edited by Msoul
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18 minutes ago, not_restricted said:

NQ is more likely to get busted for false advertising for its actual adverts than anything related to a wipe.

 

If this actually did go to court, NQ's lawyer would simply read the EULA and the case would get dismissed immediately. 

 

From the EULA: 

 

Any comment that NQ made about not wiping doesn't override the EULA. 

 

 

There'd be no legal ground to stand on -- the lawyer would ask if you read and agreed to the EULA and that would be it. 

 

Now...NQ's flashy adverts that show clearly scripted battles and laud its ability to support millions of players and "cities"...that might be false advertisement, haha. 

I'm fairly sure if you took the time with a lawyer to go over the EULA and ToS it would be likely unenforceable, like almost 99% of them, something or the other makes them unenforceable. They would also need to show exactly where and when you agreed to it specifically. Another fun one is also the comments made by NQ reps in the announcements/threads/videos going into it. Saying the words ""Whatever you do after beta starts is going to stay in one way or another... You will get what we call for the moment 'magic blueprints'... blueprints with everything included in it so you will be able to respawn the things as soon as we restart the server. So we don't like to call it 'wipe'... The key thing is the beta is really the start... You can start to invest yourself in the game. We guarantee that you're not going to be losing everything at some point... the universe is blank again, and you have to start from scratch."

IS some guarantee of investment time and money(IRL) wise.

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11 hours ago, Sycopata said:

Every time someone uses the argument that they're going to lose their hard work, it makes me want to cry, I've been playing video games for 30 years, if I have to evaluate all the time spent on video games as work, something doesn't work.

Same here. I stopped trying to understand DU players a long time ago. For me playing a game is the entertainment I get while playing. For others it is something different I do not understand.

I basically do not understand most of the DU playerbase, which is also a reason I quit because they are very toxic when it comes to other gameplay loops other than "build nice things".

They want something which is basically orthogonal to what I want. And I don't even know/understand what they want. And they probably don't know/understand what I want either.

If the game would be fun, then everybody will play the game after a wipe. The main problem is that the game is not fun. Others/Builders have found probably other reasons to play the game. And a wipe will invalidate their "unknown reason to play the game". Which is plausible. Since the game is not fun.

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Here is my take on the points brought forward by NQ, it took a while to read through all the other posts and form my own reply. I have not been an avid responder on the forum but please consider the following:

 

On the premise that

  • NQ fixes known bugs and exploits.
  • NQ actively prevents, punishes and reverts exploits in the future.
  • NQ creates a somewhat stable and equal economy (we were getting there).
  • We paid to PLAY the game. Our gains like quanta, ore and inventory should not be a given right.
  • Persistence of our intellectual creations (blueprints) is preferable.
  • Our real live investment (time, money) should be considered.
  • There should be no more wipes from here on out. Make sure the game is interesting enough for veteran and new players alike.

 

Factors under consideration

  • Removing unpopular things: I see no need to do this. Please keep schematics, they work fine. Fix things that need fixing
  • Resetting the game economy: I can really see the benefit of this. Let us become industry moguls on a level playing field. The wealth created during beta is void.
  • Experienced veterans: Please don’t take away our nice experiences, encounters and joy we had playing.
  • Right start for new players: Sure, Let them do the FTUE and grind like we did. We can help them.
  • Persistent blueprints: Sounds like a very good idea, please make them progressive: You can deploy them with just a core and then “fill” them with voxels and elements.
  • Planet revamp: Please go right ahead and create something truly nice for us. Be generous in helping those who will be inconvenienced.

 

Alternatives:

  • No wipe: An option, but it would create an immense balance problem. Unfortunately I say no.
  • Partial wipe: Keep only voxels, remove elements. Do planet revamp and allow a one time magical blueprint for affected players. Help them relocate. Feels like a little of nothing on all ends.
  • Legacy server: Double the cost, half the players. No.
  • Full wipe: Starts to feel like the best option but you need to compensate players for the time and money they invested already. Keep blueprints for everyone, remove quanta and talents but give them something back for every month they played or paid, from those "rewards" we could buy back talents and/or quanta, at players choice. No idea how much this should be but somewhere between sufficient and all.

 

Some possible perks for veterans would alleviate the pain for me:

  • We can claim a starting location before release (Aphelia claims a ring of tiles around a market so no one has that benefit)
  • We get to keep one basic XS ship, think double pocket speeder allowance with space capabilities to start off with
  • We get the old element textures (yellow containers, etc.) as skins to show our mark of veterancy
  • We get some pocket quanta and talents to spend.

That's it, thanks.

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9 hours ago, Endstar said:

So what happens when there is a new bug that creates DAC duplication? 

A lot of the chatter and reasoning I see from NQ is around a wipe being a cure all to sins/bugs/exploits of the past...

 

Problem is these are not sins of the past they are the realities of running a live service based game and all I see so far is that if something happens post release the answer is to just wipe the game as that has been the answer in the past.

NQ wipes again of course!

 

….Apparently….

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