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Social game or a socialist game?


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I've been thinking hard about this: the typical MMOs that you play is about character development including growing the assets of that character. It's about individual development. Ofcourse you got guilds to affiliate yourself with other people, to leverage your connection with other people, but the game still revolves around character development. This is what I call an equitable game!


When I play games like Eve Online and Dual Universe, it's about empire development. There is no individuality. Everything is about your contribution to the empire. You made the game a socialist game for the sake of making it social! A social game means there is an interactivity between players. It does not mean making the game group-based making it a socialist game.   


Organizations have asset that the members have contributed. An organization does not exists physically. What exists in this material world are the people and the people are individuals. Is there like a legal framework in this game to settle the claims of an individual in an organization? None, it is all player-driven! So what we end up having in this game is the communist socialist structuring of organizations that players contribute to without personal rights to your share in that organization, to your stake in that organization that is never distributed and is reinvested into the equity of that organization, as you have no way to assert them but through player-driven way, in an authoritarian system. 


Legates set rights? Are you serious? If I contribute 2 tons of steel rolled, do I not have the rights to the ownership of those steel? It's called a "share"! And what, it is up to the legate to set these rights? That is why you should f*cking put it on your name! You own it, you should f*cking put it on your name! In that way, you can assert what is yours since we don't have any legal system! 


In this game, we don't have personal property rights under organization which is needed for capitalism to exists. We do if you name it under yourself, but never in an organization. Organizations in this game is dictatorship, communism, and socialism. Why, you ask? Where is the personal rights? You expect me to wait for it from the top? What is he, a god? 


This game is about worshiping dictators, it's never about equity for people who are playing this game in a group, and believe me, this game forces you to play this game in a group! no equity, no capitalism! What do you call it? Answer it for yourself!

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People in this game mine using their own labor and equipment on an unclaimed territory. Those resources are their personal equity. Guess what they will do: they will donate those resources to their organization that is under the dictatorship of a legate and the people he awarded rights to. These donors have no personal rights to their personal property that is rightfully theirs from the start. 

 

If that is not socialism, what is it? Is this game about character development or group development? Because if it is the later, it is a socialist game!

 

We made a mistake copying Eve Online. Most people here who supported this game came from that game so what do you expect? Admit it, you people are a bunch of socialists!

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20 minutes ago, Eternal said:

If that is not socialism, what is it? Is this game about character development or group development? Because if it is the later, it is a socialist game!

 

I think you need to educate yourself on what socialism actually is before making oddball suggestions like this.

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

I think you need to educate yourself on what socialism actually is before making oddball suggestions like this.

"What is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine" = it's the same thing as not having the concept of personal rights/ownership. You got a group where tangible resources are involved, where is the personal claims to those resources? You got none, so you don't have personal rights/ownership! A personal contribution as well means you are entitled to a stake (share of the reward). If there is no distribution of stake, there is no individual entitlement, there is no personal rights!

 

"What is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine", and this is how you play the game! Look at that profile picture of yours, you are from Eve! I bet a system like this is what you prefer!

 

It is socialism, to put it simply, because "what is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine".

 

I'm Chinese and this is what an American told me: "China's copycat culture(山寨) originated from the lack of equity ('what is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine') from China's history of socialism". This is what he told me! My source is an American! An American told me what socialism is and you as an American are telling me that I need to educate myself based on your own education? What is wrong with you people?

 

Socialism (which is an English word) from American sources such as Wikipedia points that socialism is the lack of equity within a social organization. In other words, it is exactly how you run an org in this game! A Western word describing an Eastern concept with Western implicit from a Western source. I'm educated! You educated me!

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41 minutes ago, Eternal said:

It is socialism, to put it simply, because "what is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine".

1. That is the most overused / oversimplification of socialism ever. Please. No.

2. You can imply character development is not rewarding enough in DU, and you may be right. But political analogies do nothing for your argument.

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And this is what I worry about Starbase since it has similarities to DU. You need character development and attachment to that character. In real-life, we improve ourselves and our assets as individuals. You wanna know why corporations exist? To protect the owners from personal liability and lower tax. It is called a "limited liable company" where the company is liable as a legal entity, not the owners. With no personal rights within an organization in this game, you might as well put your stuff under your name as the proprietor and enter a partnership (informally) with another proprietor. In that case, there is a wall between who owns what and who manages what. There is no point of a corporation. It doesn't do anything in this game.

 

In real-life, I am forced to incorporate because of the benefits. In this game, I wouldn't think of incorporating. it doesn't even do anything but serves you disadvantages such as management disputes and personal rights issues. 

 

All the MMOs I played (and I did not played Eve at all) is about character development, so when I played this game, it is so different. I do not like the group play in this game. It feels like you are contributing to the org in the expense of yourself. That doesn't make any sense.

 

Please, for ****sake, Frozenbyte!

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Orgs are there to help people share their ressources to achieve big projects.

Nothing stops you from only developing your character / asset and not taking part in other's project.

 

"You wanna know why corporations exist? To protect the owners from personal liability and lower tax", again you oversimplify : corporations exist to protect shareholders' interests of course, but why do they need protection ? because they invested their equity in the corporation in the first place, thus sharing their resources with other to achieve a goal, usually get more profits.

Incorporating alone makes sense IRL, for the reasons you gave, but it does not really makes sense in DU.

 

Also, RDMS are already there to protect your rights over your org. If your org do not compensate you enough for resources you give, this is the problem of a specific org, not a systemic problem. You make it seems that giving away your resources to an org does nothing for your character, but it should give you access to services and facilities hard to come by playing alone.

 

Most goals in DU are achieved by orgs, same as most Raidboss are downed by guilds in other MMO.

What you would want to change in the org system to make it more character-centric ?

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1 hour ago, Nokens said:

but why do they need protection ?

When you sue a company, it takes from the company alone. The liability of shareholders are limited to their investments in that company. But if you sue a proprietor or a general partner, you are suing people here, not an entity, so their liability extends to their personal assets. When you get sued personally, you can lose everything. So you take the security for yourself and incorporate. If you incorporate which is to merge, you got to be able to work with other shareholders which is not easy. At the end of the day, you are individuals. 

 

And let's say I contributed to a development of a building and let's say my share in that building is 20% of it's value. Where is the agreement between parties that my share is 20%? Things like this is documented. I've been saying this many times to create a bloody MOU to assert your claim. You can't take a word of mouth, you need a documented agreement and fight for it player-driven. Issue like this is very complicated to resolve. It is really a risk to invest in such a project that is unsecured like that. How about you invest in something secured that can be claimed?

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If you see a problem with DU, explain it and the mechanics that trigger it. 

 

Leave RL politics out of this. 

We dont care that your RL country has issues with the word "socialism"... 

 

No one is required to "share" a org. 

RDMS allows for you to share stuff with ppl individually without any org being needed. 

So you are not forced into nothing... 

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It is impressive to see what “anti-red” or “fear of communism” propaganda has done in the minds of some people.

 

Rest in peace free will, it is something that is lost ... Or educational problems ...

 

It is funny to see that you accuse an entirely capitalist game following very closely the ultra liberal political movements.
JC did not hide it. He even tweeted a month ago praising the "creatoreconomy" ...
And it is in France the dominant polithic current of the moment.
We also call that a "start up nation" polith

 

For JC (and NQ?) The organizational system is a multitude of micro enterprises and you have to work for each other. Each service will have to be paid and pay to another player.

 

In short, it is a political choice that dictates this organizational gameplay.

This is nonsense because over several millennia of history (the one with a capital H), we have seen that empires and society worthy of the name are developing thanks to state institutions possessing inalienable goods regardless of the people. at the head of the institution.

 

This is what is missing in DU so that we can really create organizations (see the current drama with the core limit).

 

We are therefore not at all in a socialist model. But beautiful and good in a few things that are 100% capitalist. In an organization you work for a boss (or a group of bosses) => You give him all what you produce and in exchange he will have to give you a salary / asset (or benefits in kind).
And you should do the same with your micro business / organization.

 

In conclusion:

You name some things that you do not know by some things that you are afraid of but that you do not know either.
You don't know what socialism is.
You also don't know what neoliberal capitalism is.

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6 hours ago, Eternal said:

 

We made a mistake copying Eve Online. Most people here who supported this game came from that game so what do you expect?

 

I backed this game as a Ruby Founder from the very beginning on Kickstarter and had not even heard of EVE at that time (and of course I have never played it) ...

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12 hours ago, Eternal said:


When I play games like Eve Online and Dual Universe, it's about empire development. There is no individuality. Everything is about your contribution to the empire. You made the game a socialist game for the sake of making it social! A social game means there is an interactivity between players. It does not mean making the game group-based making it a socialist game.   

 


You and I play Eve Online very differently!  I played for 12 years and never really cared about empire development at all, even when I was a CEO of a corp in a nullsec alliance.  These are sandbox games and you can play them any way you like, and IMO that's what makes them so great.  You can certainly join some large org which treats you like a generic work unit, slots you into a role, tells you what to do and how to play and that's a perfectly valid playstyle which a lot of people enjoy, but it's not the only way.  You could go off and join (or even start if you can't find one) a small, group which is all about supporting individual development if you want to.  Or you could solo, or be a pirate, or join a 'lone wolf' type of org full of people doing their own thing (yes, these exist in DU too).

Admittedly DU currently lacks a lot of things which are needed to enable a lot of the types of corp you can find in Eve Online, but it's getting there and the next set of features based around PvP should open the sandbox up a lot more.

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On 6/30/2021 at 7:51 AM, Eternal said:

It is socialism, to put it simply, because "what is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine".

 

Which is where you fail.. Socialism is a system in which everyone "chips in" to benefit the whole. As in (for example) everyone pays a relative small amount (proportional to their ability to do so) towards health care which in return allows affordable (note: not free) healthcare to be available to everyone.

 

It sounds like your definition of socialism is more referring to totalitarianism and yes, I would be saying that the latter certainly is applicable to a number of orgs in DU.

 

  

13 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

I think NQ/JC knew what they wanted to build, but they had no idea how to..

I honestly think that JC's vision was mostly based on a fantasy on how what many perceive as "being" EVE at a high level could be made to work in the context of a fully editable and player controlled universe. He never understood, or was willing to learn, about the intricate stuff going on in EVE that makes what you see in the big stories happen. And he drove the game into the abyss by some very short sighted and ill conceived ideas on "how to fix things".

 

While it remains to be seen how this will pan out, it does seem that this has changed, although there is probably a lot of left over ballast that will need to be disposed of before NQ can really start making progress..

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18 hours ago, Eternal said:

People in this game mine using their own labor and equipment on an unclaimed territory. Those resources are their personal equity. Guess what they will do: they will donate those resources to their organization that is under the dictatorship of a legate and the people he awarded rights to. These donors have no personal rights to their personal property that is rightfully theirs from the start. 

 

If that is not socialism, what is it? Is this game about character development or group development? Because if it is the later, it is a socialist game!

 

We made a mistake copying Eve Online. Most people here who supported this game came from that game so what do you expect? Admit it, you people are a bunch of socialists!

 

 

What you describe here is capitalism, not socialism. what that American told you is incorrect, stop listening to Americans, and educate yourself on the topic by doing your own research, you can literally google this. but I'll try and put it as simply as I can.

 

CAPITALISM: is when a "capitalist" owns and controls the resources and means of production, an can decide what to do with those resources.

 

So in an org, the Legate/ Capitalist takes ownership of the "Members/ Workers" resources, and they alone have the power to decide what to do with those resources.

 

 

 

SOCIALISM: is when the "workers" own and control the resources and means of production. an can decide what to do with those resources.

 

if Orgs where socialist, there would be NO "Legate/ Capitalist" , because "Members/ Workers" would own and control the resources and means of production, and they would collectively decide what to do with those resources.

 

 

That's the basics... you can research and learn more on your on. which I highly recommend.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
 
noun
noun: socialism
  1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

 

 

 

 

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You guys don't get it...
For ppl like the OP, the word socialism is not what a definition says.
It is an insult. It is 100% synonymous of the enemy, of hell, of everything that ppl should not be.

A certain group of countries created this hate against this word to justify wars and commercial deals.
Now that the Cold War is over, a certain group of political activists use that word to fulfill their agenda.

Their agenda is simple, it is to discriminate everything associated with the word. To make any idea related to the word "undebatable" because it is evil. And everyone that does not agree that the word is evil is also evil.
In summary, the end of constructive debate...

 

 

But back to this topic.

The op lives in this environment where "socialism" is evil.

And tried to associate some DU mechanic with "evil" to make it "undebatable"

I don't believe the OP knows what "socialism" is in any definition, and I don't think the OP actually thinks his complaint is about socialism.

 

He just used the word to have an "impact" tittle and some "support" from similar players.

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Posted (edited)

Even though I find your conclusion a bit too far-fetched, you have recognised the core of the issue. But this is not the problem with NQ. Well, maybe in the lack of rights management, but that is more mechanics than the social structure of the players. In the end, the product of your statement is created by the players and what they have made of it.

 

Depending on the organisation, you can decide how you want to run it. Actually, you don't even need anything special, pen and paper is enough. At the beginning, we threw everything into a pot for our organisation so that we could make progress in building ships. When we wanted to have a more precise overview, i.e. a fairer split, we decided that someone who contributes a lot to the organisation should also get something in return. Take a kind of DKP system as an example from a mmorpg game. But I also heard that some legates demand taxes (in the form of monthly levies). I guess there are no limits.

 

I think it's up to the players themselves to find a solution for their needs. I don't think a mechanic in the game will ever bring the desired result that satisfies everyone - that's why it's important that the players become active. At the same time, however, it is up to the player to decide how far he wants to compromise with an organisation and what his requirements are. But that is much more complex to grasp in the overall picture.

 

It's a pity that the replies on the post discuss the person instead of the actual topic. But once again I am not surprised.

 

Edited by SirJohn85
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Hey folks !

I think this is a capitalist's game because you simple have your personal wallet ! And a personal core to store your stuff. And a personal bank account like Sanctuary (always safe)

This means you can mine alone and sell and get the money for your self. 

If you want to contribute something to an org then consider this as a long term investment in which you may or not take something back.

Considering PVP and war is involved it is a matter of luck if you actually ever take something back in return to your contribution.

Like higher tier ores or parts for example. As we can imagine this game will proceed since we are still in beta.

As for asset sharing you must know and trust the people you are joining or you will end up missing your valuable assets (we have seen that happen also)

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

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