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SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


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11 minutes ago, Leppard said:

 

If big orgs suvive this wipe they will have the first tiles claimed on Alioth near a market (1-10) within the first day - and then everything will be quite like before the wipe.

This time it will even be faster than at the start of the beta, because the knowlege and experience is on the side of the older players.

Big orgs will have internal supply and demand.

 

Other players will create demand at starting moons.

 

So those orgs which wanna sell their stuff will put them for sale at markets there.

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7 hours ago, Pleione said:

 

I think what your missing is that many people, myself included, are not the least bit interested in specializing.  Who in the hell wants to be the absolute best advanced LED manufacturer when 1)  A corp can put you out of business by selling at a slight loss until you leave and then jack the price up and recover  and 2) You margins are going to be so thin as to be meaningless?

Your argument is lagging because what do we have now?

No margins, an oversupply of ores, elements that are sold below cost, and if everyone can make everything, there will be no more trade.

Corps always have advantages over single players and so it should be, DU is not a single player game.

If you have to destroy a certain number of Schematic to be able to make a better one, then the ore price would rise, while many Materials are consumed and not everyone can make everything, there would be much better trade.

 

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10 hours ago, Sycopata said:

You cant expect people enter in a corp in the first hour of enter in a MMO, common player enter in a mmo learn basics and find a corp. Enter in a corp before try the game... Are not realistic.

And is it realistic to expect a new player to be able to compete with established veteran players after a couple of days?

 

So for the nth time, a wipe does not sole anything.

The only thing a wipe does is to move the goal post, so that a new set of players get to feel special and get ahead of the next wave of players.

 

And I strongly suspect that many of the people who talk loudly about wipe and "fairness", are veteran players looking for a fresh start so that they can use the knowledge base to maximize their strategies during the wipe rush and win big.

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Why do people think that anything about a wipe is related to "fairness" (of new versus veteran players)?

 

A wipe is purely marketing to sell subs at Launch, nothing more.

 

This is why your "fairness" arguments are just going round in circles, because they don't hold up.

Be informed, people!

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How many new players does NQ think the release would attract and, if so, how many will stay? Many players are like a plague of locusts, swarming from hype to hype and leaving behind empty, destroyed servers. 

NQ should focus on real regular players who are loyal and devoted for many years.

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15 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

How many new players does NQ think the release would attract and, if so, how many will stay? Many players are like a plague of locusts, swarming from hype to hype and leaving behind empty, destroyed servers. 

NQ should focus on real regular players who are loyal and devoted for many years.

I imagine their goal is to start to capture a lot of the eve community.

 

Sure some new starters will be temporary, but some will attract others from other games.
 

I hope that people will be more inclined to maintain their subscription in this game so that they don’t loose constructs - other games don’t have this hook, all people loose if they unsubscribe are skills points or similar.

Edited by Shredder
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We already have people making spreadsheets and max efficiency charts to smash after a wipe, just in case. We can make the org even better and more streamline. Just the people resource we have makes us ahead of any new player and most orgs that would ever come into game. Even day one. 

 

An wipe isn't going to solve a thing except putting a big speed bump in the road and pissing people off in the process. unless more interesting and investing gameplay loops are introduced or flushed out. (Looking at you salvage wrecks)

 

Also can you explain to me how a wipe will make everyone on a level playing field. I can play 60 hours a week, I read every forum post, discord chat and website concerned with DU. I watch every video and chat with every DU player I can to learn everything I can to better myself. The gap will always exist for those that don't (not my problem)

 

I help everyone I can in game. I give away quanta and spend countless hours helping people learn to voxal and teaching them how game mechanics work. Which is more valuable than any new player experience imo.

 

These issues that you would like to wipe away because people exploited are really annoying yes but it's all self inflicted. Not to mention you have the logs and could discipline those people at will and you haven't.

 

You have a test server and those items never got fully tested because the PTS. The window was always so small and it's a pain to get people to test when on the PTS you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to even begin to test. Should just have all the SP and the PTS markets should have everything for 1 quanta.  Maybe ingame incentives to get people to log into the PTS?

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2 hours ago, PotatoMart said:

Your argument is lagging because what do we have now?

No margins, an oversupply of ores, elements that are sold below cost, and if everyone can make everything, there will be no more trade.

Corps always have advantages over single players and so it should be, DU is not a single player game.

If you have to destroy a certain number of Schematic to be able to make a better one, then the ore price would rise, while many Materials are consumed and not everyone can make everything, there would be much better trade.

 

This whole "oversupply conversation" is wrong at start.

Industry manufactures only elements witch are supposed to use in constructs.

Using automated machinery (Indy units) produces almost no added value. It is then no problem if elements or what ever is produced by industry has low margins. That is how free market works (capitalism)

 

When those standard elements are used in constructs, a skilled builder may add lots of value to final product, ship or base.

Then margins can be higher if elements and parts are cheap.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Sycopata said:

You know there only supplies on Alioth market 6? You really expect a new player travel from sactuarium to Alioth 6 and buy a container S? We are so disconected from the new player experience, please make a new accound and try yourselve.

Shuttle is a quick and easy way to bounce between the two.

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NQ put this out for our feedback so here’s my two cents:

 

Shedding Light on Wipe Prospects: 

 

I think the most important thing to consider is how this impacts our community.  Community is what makes this game what it is. It’s the people who are there to help the new folks, to give advice and even money and ships. It’s the builders who have spent hours upon hours building and designing ships for sale. It’s the builders who create cities and huge space stations which add flavor to this world. 

 

If they do a construct wipe, NQ takes all that away and leave an empty shell. They will have taken away what means the most to the community: the time and effort that they put forth in building and creating. Some members have spent hours and hours building their bases, their spaceships.  There will be no incentive for them to play to start over on that scale. New players come to this game looking for the community they see in the trailers. They will find planets that are completely devoid of population and cities.

 

The gaming community is not so large – they all frequent the same gaming web pages. NQ will not be able to afford all negative feedback and the loss of population. The population will likely drop significantly. That’s a pretty big financial hit. The feedback that NQ will continue to get as a result will impact its ability to recruit new players.  The fall out will be all over the gaming community and on every board that gamers frequent.  This feedback will negatively impact the new players who see it. 

 

I am a newer player but even I feel that starting over, rebuilding, rescanning, mining again feels pretty overwhelming to me. I am unsure if I will continue. 

 

I heard that there were 'Magic Blueprints' previously. Is this a possibility? 

 

Warp Drives, Adjusters and Command seats:

I do not understand why NQ is choosing to make these elements (especially warp drives ) so much heavier. I’m afraid this change will effectively remove all the personal warp shuttles from the game. It won’t be possible to build xs core warp shuttles that are cost effective. The warp cell cost is going to be much higher. 

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1 - Keep schematics.. they are needed for the economy.

2 - Remove peoples beta access, if they wanna play have them pay that way people who are not playing will decay and the community can clean it up

3 - before launch do planet reset 

 

cleans up the rubbish and most ppl will be happy.

 

just make up your mind asap as to be blunt your player base will not wanna play a game if they think its going to be deleted in X months time.

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One word for the new Players:

 

If new Players could find into the game the way we did, they possibly gonna like it and stay. NQ isn't good at brainstorming and I'm sure they wont think of an easy way to achieve that. But its simple. Let them craft ANY T1-parts on Sanctuary without any Schematics - same way we did. Those Items cant be sold on a market, et voila !

 

There will be no 95% happy new Players otherwise - but probably 80% less then now if they wipe.

 

Anyway, the game will not work with a wipe nor without one - because too many Players have been lost already.

Wipe or not, the majority WONT COME BACK.

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Schems should absolutely stay in the game. They add value to the market.. the main problem most players had with them was HOW they were introduced not that they were introduced. They should have been introduced after a wipe. 

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6 hours ago, Sycopata said:

Wow, nice final touch.... Like i said, we are so veterant players here, and no one take in considerarion, new player experience. Go fill all sactuarium markets with t1 resources please, remember new player have just a hover ship, and cant craft wings.

If there is demand, there will be a market. It’s that simple. Markets will open on sanct if there are buyers.

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18 hours ago, Cergorach said:

"we're going to do everything we can so that we don't have to go through a wipe again" is the message they pushed at Beta launch. Imho the flat text doesn't do justice to how much a full wipe at launch would be very unlikely, even their (streaming)partners pushed this message. (For everyone that was new to DU atleast.)

 

This is imho the reason why DU suddenly became so popular over night with a certain (streaming) crowd. And also imho they don't seem to have done everything they could do, it almost seems that they did everything they did to do a full wipe at 'release'. I see that as misleading at best and false advertising at worst. In business terms I would call it improper management, and with the large turn around of CEOs, I might not be the only one.

 

I'm also of mind that NQ has other options then a complete wipe. Reimbursing people for Schematics would make quanta pretty worthless overnight. What NQ could do is convert that quanta to loyalty points for example, with that you could buy certain things that are not directly in game, like skins for elements, characters, pets... Or even game time (sure that cost NQ money, but the f-upped). You could even limit every character to a max of 100M quanta, everything above that at date/time x is converted to loyalty points. Folks that exploited bugs (doubling items for example) in the past should be punished and the exploited product removed without refund. People that used unbalanced game mechanics can't be blamed for the faults NQ made, but you only get refunded what you paid for it (so cheap Schematics only gets you back very little). A system like this will take work, but imho I would prefer this to a space market (although I like the concept)... The way NQ is doing it now is going to generate a ton of bad blood (wipe or no wipe) and that is going to seep into the new player pool (toxic).

100mil max? Have you ever even played the game?

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Hi, 

 

I love this game, but like any time-consuming game, a reset feels like a waste of time feeling.
Personally I have nothing against a wipe, but as Star Citizen I am preparing for this, except on Dual Universe I had gone on the principle of a no wipe.
So whether you do it or not is not a problem, please warn the players beforehand, and not give information that changes every month.
Make a list at the start, respect this list and make this game on this way, if it changes all the time this game is more an alpha than a beta.

For my part if the game wipes I will cut my subscription and will surely come back when the game is finished and more mature.

 

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7 hours ago, Sycopata said:

You know there only supplies on Alioth market 6? You really expect a new player travel from sactuarium to Alioth 6 and buy a container S?

Wait... Correct me if I'm wrong!

You're on Sanctuary, you go to the local market, if not there you take the shuttle to Allioth. Then you take the teleporter to Alioth 6 and walk or use the compact-able ship to go to Alioth Market 6...

 

Side note: Maybe I'm 'special' but my characters can craft wings in their packpacks... XS and S...

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22 minutes ago, Thought said:

100mil max? Have you ever even played the game?

Have you...

 

I'm just suggesting that every character could take only 100M quanta in wallet into the post launch game. If you don't have that... No problem. If you have more, anything above that is converted into loyalty points and you can do 'something' with those.

 

I certainly have more in my wallets then 100M quanta, but one of the arguments is that missioning has been misused, that will probably mean that there are some people with significantly more quanta in their wallet then 100M quanta. Or you could make it more complex like: For every month a character had an active subscription in beta, 10M quanta can be taken into the game post launch...

 

What's your problem... With this...

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47 minutes ago, Thought said:

Do you have a head injury? Really nobody cares about your arguments. You sound like a fool. 

 

Says the newbie with 5 post vs the veteran that joined in 2016 and has over 5000 posts.  He is not the one sounding like a fool. 

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Sorry this is going to be long...

 

NQ's approach towards the live server has been one of this being a live game for the entire beta:

  • Players that have to pay monthly to play a game (not a test)
  • No major wipes or even reversions of the server to fix major exploits (not a test)
  • A promise of no wipes unless there were catastrophic and unavoidable issues (not a test)
  • Changing game design to make the game more grind oriented in order to slow player progression (not a test)

NQ's Pro and Con list is so bias it is a joke. One of the major Cons they did not mention (or possibly erroneously put in the pros) is making DU an empty world for launch. How this could be a Pro is beyond me. You have had veteran players who have the most game knowledge building content for your game over cumulative hundreds of thousands of hours through bugs and changes. You have had free content created for your game that has virtually no inerrant content and you want to delete it? 

 

This brings me to another point of NQs complete lack of understanding of the scale of their own game world. You have had the entire DU player base building stuff in this game world for multiple hours a day since the start of beta and we have only built up things on a tiny fraction of it. Also, this is in your mind on an accelerated timeline because of exploits and game design flaws. You want to reset everything and everyone on a slower progression because you think you will bring in more players because of a "clean slate" at launch?

 

Even with 10,000 active players working 5-8 hours a day to build things it would take them years to cover even a large portion of just Alioth. If the balance of current construction and accumulated wealth is so game breaking that you need to wipe then you have almost 0 hope of keeping it balanced with a healthy population of players. The game's scale is massive... Is the aim to have an empty solar system forever? Barren, virtually untouched nature preserves? That seems to be the goal if you are truly worried about wiping based on current economic progression. 

 

My personal experience is I have been playing this game since Alpha 1 with a group of 10-20 players. We built up a lot in Alpha but held back as we knew there would be a wipe at the launch of Beta. When we were told there would be no wipe unless things went completely off the rails we put our strongest effort in building a city and progressing in the game as it was designed using 0 exploits. Over tens of thousands of hours we built a unique city, space station and community. We took all of the changes through Beta in stride as we knew in the end we would keep our progression and our hard work was still worth something. With a wipe our completely unique and unreproducible city (Freeport, Teoma) will be gone forever as it will be impossible to recreate even with magic blueprints. It would even take NQ a massive effort to put it back together as it currently is. The city is fully functioning and all it needs is more players in the game to flourish. With a wipe it will just be gone forever. 

 

NQ has all of the tools at their disposal to be accurate and concise about fixing any problems keeping current progression would cause. They could use a scalpel but it seems they are leaning towards using a sledgehammer instead. If you wipe the game I will say best of luck and watch it fail from afar but that is okay as it makes the decision for me to play the game at release very easy. 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, BuzzCobra said:

Hi, 

 

I love this game, but like any time-consuming game, a reset feels like a waste of time feeling.
Personally I have nothing against a wipe, but as Star Citizen I am preparing for this, except on Dual Universe I had gone on the principle of a no wipe.
So whether you do it or not is not a problem, please warn the players beforehand, and not give information that changes every month.
Make a list at the start, respect this list and make this game on this way, if it changes all the time this game is more an alpha than a beta.

For my part if the game wipes I will cut my subscription and will surely come back when the game is finished and more mature.

 

 

One of the first things they teach you in game design (in college) is there is a list of things you do not take away from a player at all cost.

 

In approximate order of importance:

 

  1. Name/Identity
  2. Unique Achievement
  3. Progression
  4. Time
  5. Currency

NQ attempts to prevent the loss of 4. Time with talent points and BP retention but with a full wipe they would take away almost everything on this list except for 1. Name/Identity. Maybe we can hit that one too by making the name database reset to give a fair playing field on names. Super unfair that beta players got an advantage on reserving names :P

 

 

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On 4/16/2022 at 8:42 AM, Remagz said:

 

I'm a new player so I'm pretty much the demographic they are wanting to hear from. I think all the established ship showrooms and buildings make the game more lived in and interesting to explore. Wiping all of this content seems pointless when the main issues can be fixed without it. I imagine they will eventually be adding new systems to the game too so this whole idea that wiping content is going to somehow please new players makes zero sense.

 

The only things bothering me as a new player are:

  • Having 5.5mill talent points when others have 75mill+ with NO CATCHUP MECHANIC so that gap is never going to reduce. Even with a wipe this will still be a problem for newer players down the line.
  • Tier 4/5 mining tiles are mainly taken and it is permanent with little chance of newer players getting their foot in the door.

Both of these things can be fixed with new mechanics, without needing a wipe. A wipe will not fix these issues for new players a year down the line if there was a wipe.

Probably the most broken part of the game is in what you just said. In less than a couple months all the good tiles were gone. That will happen again. Might take a month or two longer because everyone will be starting from scratch but they will be gone and not even necessarily pulling ore out of the ground as some people will take more than they have calibration charges to run. A new solar system/dimension must be created for new players. There’s a lot of ways to make this work well. 

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40 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Have you...

 

I'm just suggesting that every character could take only 100M quanta in wallet into the post launch game. If you don't have that... No problem. If you have more, anything above that is converted into loyalty points and you can do 'something' with those.

 

I certainly have more in my wallets then 100M quanta, but one of the arguments is that missioning has been misused, that will probably mean that there are some people with significantly more quanta in their wallet then 100M quanta. Or you could make it more complex like: For every month a character had an active subscription in beta, 10M quanta can be taken into the game post launch...

 

What's your problem... With this...

Gotcha. My bad. I read it like you meant a limit in the game over all. I have about a billion. I wouldn’t be pleased with 100mil but I honestly feel like I don’t need it as much as the new players don’t want me to have it lol. I would be fine with 10 or less. Personally all I want to keep are BPs of my stuff. And if we can get talent points queued or at least a percentage that would be cool too. All I’ve done this whole time we’re industry talents which is lame because I thought surely that won’t ever need to be wiped… sorry again for the misunderstanding ✌🏽 

Edited by Thought
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