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DEVBLOG: CONSTRUCTION SLOTS AND STACKED ELEMENTS - discussion thread


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Oof, i hope these numbers get adjusted. My little org with 2 players and 4 accounts is well over 300 constructs. We have 41 mining bases, over 30 ships, and a 3-hex base on madis that is mostly paved.  Taking that down to 100 constructs would mean reducing our "stuff" by two-thirds.

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I have 8 mining constructs that will now come down.  I have a ship museum that will now lose its structure and most of the ships on display.  I have a two core hangar and 4 cores if parking that will be torn down and my few remaining ships will sit on the ground.  Building was what I enjoyed most.  There is no more reason to gather resources if I can't build.  

Edited by Frank2
Misspelling
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"As these changes significantly increase the scale of which these talents previously applied, these talents will be reset at the 0.28 Panacea release."     ~Does this mean a full talent reset? (We need one for changes like this... and weapon/pvp changes that change the entire meta)

"We try to limit the resetting of talents as much as we can; however, due to the considerable changes in the way these talents now behave and scale, we feel that refunding these talents is required."   ~Just these talents or All the talents?
 

"Each Novean will have 15 assignable organization construct slots, with an additional 10 available from talents."  ~So each player can only have 25 total for personal use and/or to contribute to an org? If Personal is separate from the number you can assign to an org, how many total personal constructs can we have per character?



 

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A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

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There are a lot of important details missing from the post. 
 

1: player skills. How many personal build slots per level per players. what is the max core count a single player can contribute.

2: is it required for players to give thier slots to the org or is it an automatic increase per player

 

3: Org slot skills. How will these effect things or are they being removed?

 

4: are players required to be active for their core slots to be usable?

5: How will this effect ship builders and designers? or people like my self with the Castle or Ember City?  What about IC Spaceport. These are all huge community driven setups that will have to come down if players don't choose to give core slots. 

 

6: Auto Miners. This is going to destroy small org industry. They will no longer be able to have any reasonable number of miners to build up with, Now this also depends on 1 - 4 in this post. 

7: This also kills the ship market. Players will stop buying ship designs because of this. 

 

8: Will this mean existing orgs will have to destroy the things they have built in order to comply? I would hate to see what orgs like mine DIA or IC or others will do with this. 

 

These variables can change the way this patch is taken by the player base a LOT 

 

 

This 

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4 minutes ago, NQ-Deckard said:

A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

very short answer: not enough. sorry

 

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3 minutes ago, NQ-Deckard said:

A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

@NQ-Deckard You really need to clear up the blog post with regards to personal vs org slots.

 

Is personal slots cap the same as today with talent etc,  and the 10 + 15 org slots something that is added on top of this without affecting the personal slots?

 

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7 minutes ago, NQ-Deckard said:

A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

These limits are way too low.

Real overkill.

 

Please reconsider this.

 

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After reding this Dev blog here what I feel. 

 

1. Another update that going to push people out instead of bringing people in. 

2. The economy will be shot. 

  1. The remaining players will tear down everything they don't need to get to their core count. Now they don't need all those extra parts, so they will try to sell them. 
  2. Ore Prices will go through the roof because people will have to choose between the MU or ship/statics.
    1. Or they will plumet more because with this limitation and the current player base no one will need anything. They will have a massive amount of part lying around to fill infinite BP.
  3. Ship builder will go broke because the current player will only get a new ship when they need one or want to tear one down to replace it in their fleet. 
  4. This will kill community projects people are trying build aka racetracks or cities. 

Twenty-five constructs to give to an org at this point in time not efficient. This number needs to be increase. 

 

Please listen to the community this time. I beg you because I love this game, but these changes are a game killer for me. 

 

Thank You NQ.

Edited by SMALLVILLE
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3 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

@NQ-Deckard You really need to clear up the blog post with regards to personal vs org slots.

 

Is personal slots cap the same as today with talent etc,  and the 10 + 15 org slots something that is added on top of this without affecting the personal slots?

 

who cares. both is not enough

 

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12 minutes ago, NQ-Deckard said:

A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

They urgently need to increase the number of cores for the character, then the number for the org per person would be quite interesting and comprehensible. Without a drastic expansion of the personal slots, it will be a disaster.

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The idea isn't necessarily bad. Maybe it'll finally make DU feel a little bit more like an MMO.

Even if it means forcing players to cooperate. I would like the same for the industry. Perhaps this is good for the entire economy and the market.


For builders and collectors, this restriction is likely to be counterproductive.

In this case there should be an easy way to store the whole core (with content) in a "MagicBlueprint" or a special storage.

 

A possible solution occurred to me:

Remove tile building restriction, allow building on entire tile. Static cores only serve to separate individual areas/rights assignment. Space Station and Dynamic Contractions still need a core, but with a higher limit so that large Space Stations can be built.

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1 minute ago, NQ-Deckard said:

A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

 

Personal slots are very much involved, even if they aren't changing.

 

Players don't have enough personal slots to lay down all their mining units, they use org slots for that. Unless MU are rebalanced to reduce the number of cores needed to reasonably run them (since you can practically put all of 2 on most outer-world hexes), a lot of players are going to have a private org, maxed skills, and next to nothing to share with their group-org (people they are supposed to be playing with because this is an MMO) because they are using over half of everything they have between personal and org slots combined just to avoid feeling like they are missing out on their MU-ore.

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I welcome the try to scale the org constructs in some way. the core limitation of 275 was really not bearable for larger organisations. We had to split up in several sub-orgs for all our constructs and the managing of this was a nightmare, because of the 5 orgs per player limit.

 

BUT:

If I have with all talents just 25 org construct slots, this is quite an issue.

I mean, you have just a few personal construct slots.

- Most of them are already occupied with the cores for the mining units.

- So if you want to build a fancy building and more than 1 single ship, you already need several of your org construct slots for yourself

- Preparations on a larger scale will be nearly impossible

In my case I currently build a city layout so that other players and I can build a realistic (still small) city later. A project like this needs a layout and a structure before it really starts, or it ends in chaos. Currently I have already ~150 cores placed and filled. But projects like this, that need a massive amount of cores for preparation before others can benefit from it, will be nearly impossible. Because everyone have to be in your org (remember the 5 org limit) and has to give you some of their org construct slots before they get anything in return (and be honest: how many will do this?). And even if I get enough slots from people beforehand and I spend massive ressources and time - it can be all lost if just a few players leave the org/ reassign their slots/ cancel their payment. Then the core limit drops and the already placed cores will be abandoned...

 

This will really kill many larger projects.

With this system, you can only start big projects, if you are already big. Big projects from small groups that form a larger organization later will be nearly impossible. So this may be okay for large orgs, but will make it way more difficult for smaller orgs to rise even if they are really active.
Better invent some milestones.

For example: You start with 50 Cores for your org, and with achieving several goals (spend massive ressources/quanta) you can scale up this limit and it remains permanent. So even a small group can get to a decent amount of org cores with the time if they are active (this idea is absolutely not perfect, it shall show just another direction).

 

A system like the announced one that is so fragile that a few leaving/reassigning/inactive members can destroy your organization with the reduced core limit - that is not really thought to the end.

 

I understand the reason and I appreciate that you are try so solving this.

But this is the wrong way NQ.

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16 minutes ago, NQ-Deckard said:

A few clarifications:

 

Your personal slots have nothing to do with this.


Each player gets a base amount of 15 organization construct slots assigned to their account.
Plus a new talent that can add 10 more organization construct slots to reach a total of 25.


Any amount of these slots can be assigned to any organization of your choosing.

So this true what you just said then we as a player with the talents will only have a total of 25 slots to build ships/static/space constructs period that is what I take from this. Shall I hold the last nail for this coffin or do we get a nonexistent new player to do that? 

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I actually thought I was going to play Dualuniverse for decades because I just really enjoy building things, especially because I'm a huge fan of Startrek and I'm fascinated by the Borg, I wanted to build a spacestation based on the Borg constructs. So now I'm even more restricted in the size and number of cores and even have to go so far as to demolish my station. 
 

Seriously, NQ, what do you think should keep me in the game now? If I can't keep building, what should I do? I don't like this "PvP" with click and shoot click and wait! I also don't like 1-6hours afk flying through space for missions! I just wanted to spend years building here, as promised in your advertising, and spend my free time that way. So do I have to switch to Minecraft now?

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5 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

I actually thought I was going to play Dualuniverse for decades because I just really enjoy building things, especially because I'm a huge fan of Startrek and I'm fascinated by the Borg, I wanted to build a spacestation based on the Borg constructs. So now I'm even more restricted in the size and number of cores and even have to go so far as to demolish my station. 
 

Seriously, NQ, what do you think should keep me in the game now? If I can't keep building, what should I do? I don't like this "PvP" with click and shoot click and wait! I also don't like 1-6hours afk flying through space for missions! I just wanted to spend years building here, as promised in your advertising, and spend my free time that way. So do I have to switch to Minecraft now?

 

Same plan I had. Not anymore

I can not believe this proposal is real. 

 

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1 minute ago, AhandinitFlo said:

so if I cam correct the single player core limit is 42 (with talents) ? Can this somehow be upgraded please 

Its not its 25 according to what NQ-Deckard just said so yeah we are all waiting on pins and needles to what NQ will do next to ruin this game at every turn for everyone.

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People have personal orgs for a reason. There are not even remotely enough personal core slots.

 

We need a bump in personal cores. Something like +5 per level of Core Unit Upgrades and +2 per level of Advanced Core Unit Upgrades.

Then I would happily wave goodbye to personal org stacking.

 

Regarding element stacking, please allow us to place elements precisely somehow. Currently, elements on my ships are often out of alignment by something like 1/8 voxel or 1/16 voxel. And I can't figure out how to get them to stop, when I'm trying to, for instance, sink ailerons into voxels.

Also, just generally, moving elements with the arrows often make them move a little vertically (for instance), when trying to shift them sideways to see how close they can get, in a way that looks like it ends up soft-overlapping other elements,

Being able to enable/disable some kind of "strict placement" would really help with building.

Edited by Mncdk1
Added section about element stacking
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i've been playing since alpha.
i always tried to create content and give back a lot to the community via new fancy stuff ( like hagboards or boats etc.) and i operate a showroom with all ships on display and a marina where i try to keep a copy of each boat/sailboat using my lua for people to walk around in and enjoy the creations.
additionally i have to make some money and operate mining units on around 20 cores. then i have an industry and need a LOT of cores for prototypes and my own ships.
when i am selling tokens i often have to place new temporary cores.
so with all this even after cleaning up every so often i operate around 260 cores in my construct org.
even if i massively reduce stuff, i still would have to remove most of the stuff. so basically this would end my career in this game.
even if NQ would reconsider and go to 100 cores it would be constant struggle of which stuff i would have to remove.
i never used nested orgs ( which was basically more in those past mining days to claim tiles) but still i create content, i have a life in this game and i want to grow. so this could honestly be the final nail in the coffin for DU.
NQ always talked about the visions where they create the plattform and we the players fill it with life and content. but HOW?

If this is about server space or network traffic i would rather pay 1$ more per month to end this stupid plan.

 

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

The organisation itself has 0 (ZERO !!!!)
This means that a player must first "give or sell" places to the organisation, only then can the organisation go through many players up to the corelimit mentioned.

A player will therefore become extremely important for organisations that want to build large projects. At the same time, solo players will be punished extremely severely, as an organisation no longer offers core places and you only have the places of your character.

@NQ-Deckard Should I start tearing down all my buildings?

A lot of us will need to start tearing down our buildings, space stations, and getting rid of ships and maybe even drop our MUs.

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QUOTE: "Several months ago, we suggested a way to address the issue of cascading organizations being created as a way to circumvent the soft limitations of construct and territory numbers. Players raised some valid concerns about the proposal, citing that it would adversely affect how they managed their organizations’ holdings. In consideration of that feedback, we temporarily tabled the proposed changes and went back to the drawing board.

 

The problem remains and needs to be resolved sooner rather than later to avoid a myriad of issues in the future. DU simply can’t support an infinite number of constructs per player. It’s why we have construct allowances in the first place. We needed a solution that would support community projects for organizations of any size without penalizing those that are prolific. After all, one of the core features of DU is to build lots of cool stuff."

 

 

Then actually address the issue of nested orgs, rather then nerf a small aspect of them that is not significantly related to the issue stated. The current construct allowances are sufficient to support the game as intended.

 

The proposed core limit will effectively end the personal builder profession, as there will simply not be the core allowance to provide example ships in showrooms for them to advertise effectively.

It will also impact 'collective' orgs of all sizes, as core allocations will need to be managed manually, rather then by passive application of talents of the orgs legates. This will mean that at any point in time the org could loose core allocations and constructs, simply from ONE person opting to leave the org - or even from vindictive action.

 

Core allocation for orgs needs to be controlled by the legates of those orgs, not by the membership. So instead of penalising the entire player-base, and adversely the builder community that NQ so want to be a core feature of the game, I suggest that the fix that needs to be implemented is REMOVING THE ABILITY TO CREATE NESTED ORGS.

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