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NEW SCHEMATICS - Discussion Thread


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1 hour ago, Saedow said:

So what about our current very very expensive schematics where we put our saving in... will those be lost?

 

This is where the wipe comes in.

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30 minutes ago, PlumYeti said:

Re Reading the Post now and This Gem caught my eye.

"Remaking a feature means investing time into something that may not improve the game if we misfire. It also means risking making something worse, requiring even more time to fix later."

Please Listen @NQ-Kyrios and @NQ-Entropy I believe this is exactly what these changes will do. I fear this will destroy the game that I have come to love, and I want to succeed so badly. Listen to the Factory Builders, and the Ship Builders, I know endgame is PVP space battles, but you cant have that without a good foundation. You need us builders, and honestly with these changes, I may have to look for a new favorite game. 


 

Precisely the goal is that you cannot have too big a factory.
This makes the costs of running the server fairer. Maybe with your industry at 2,000 machines you were taking up space for another 5 players.

Now there will be the DAC system, you can subscribe 5 more accounts and actually pay what you consume in game resources.

Industrial limitation was a must.

The next will be the energy system for ships (or a capacity cost).

I hope that with all this NQ will have achieved economic stability for their servers.

Otherwise we can all say goodbye to the game.

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I would have greatly preferred a research system based on time / quanta / resources rather than pay and wait, at least it pushes you to do things on the side to search for new ores etc, knowing of course that research unlocks others which cost much more expensive (and even more with the number of people in a clan, more recoverable resources, So more expensive but faster and it prevents the guys with X reroll to unlock everything), it allows to limit the craftable things (even if it means to add a system of duplication of schematic X quanta gives you Y schematic) At least I find it better and it pushes to gather and make tactical choices when unlocking crafts (limited to 2 or 3 simultaneous research)

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As a solo player I can say this... you took a system that worked fine (but took forever to build) and [filtered]ed it up with schematics, and with this change I don't feel like you are going back in the "fun" direction... feels like you are going further into what's wrong with the current system...

 

For a game about building stuff, you seem to love to put roadblocks in front of builders...

 

Edit: I just realized you are implementing the equivalent of microtransactions for schematics...

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Just add a quanta tax to assembly lines or something. Not this "print this, spend time and quanta, sell it to someone who has to buy them weekly like fuel" wtf. Feels like a horribly complicated way to do a tax OR a lazy way to do a fuel-like energy mechanic. RIP DU

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3 hours ago, kulkija said:

Yet another "small fee".... When combing all situations where Aphelia collects those so called "small fees" total becomes wery big.

 

1 hour ago, Grimscale said:

I'm having trouble not thinking of this as turning a working system into a yet another tedious time wasting quanta pit.

Guys, these fees and taxes are not only necessary, they're beneficial to you. The game needs quanta sinks. Without them there will be inflation and everything costs more. You lose purchasing power either way. Remember when hematite cost more than 100 q/L? This was because missions were pumping billions per day into the economy. Now missions are nerfed. People think of them as pointless - why would I want to fly 7 hours for a only 8M quanta? But after the wipe things will be different. If inflation is kept down missions remain relevant. A XL package mission might be enough to buy a M-core ship, or whole megaliter of T1 ore. But only if quanta is leaving the economy down the drain of sinks.

The players demanded cheaper territory taxes and NQ gave it to them. Now NQ has to make it up in other areas. They have metrics about the quanta coming into and leaving the game, and they know how much sink and how much faucet they need.

This system is smart because it continues to be a cost burden to industrialists for as long as they continue to play, rather than one lump sum for an expensive schematic that never needs to be replaced. In this way, the economy remains steady. No mega-industrialist who bought every schematic in the game 2 years ago and now provides 25% of the elements needed for the whole playerbase. They will have to rely on you to produce their items, buying your schematics from the market.

 

So you can recoup the costs of producing the schematics by just selling them on the market. The market value will never be below the cost to produce unless the item is just completely unwanted. So in a way, this system is actually an EASY INCOME for players. Just use your slots to produce desirable schematics and sell them on the market. Free money for you.

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5 minutes ago, TobiwanKenobi said:

 

Guys, these fees and taxes are not only necessary, they're beneficial to you. The game needs quanta sinks. Without them there will be inflation and everything costs more. You lose purchasing power either way. Remember when hematite cost more than 100 q/L? This was because missions were pumping billions per day into the economy. Now missions are nerfed. People think of them as pointless - why would I want to fly 7 hours for a only 8M quanta? But after the wipe things will be different. If inflation is kept down missions remain relevant. A XL package mission might be enough to buy a M-core ship, or whole megaliter of T1 ore. But only if quanta is leaving the economy down the drain of sinks.

The players demanded cheaper territory taxes and NQ gave it to them. Now NQ has to make it up in other areas. They have metrics about the quanta coming into and leaving the game, and they know how much sink and how much faucet they need.

This system is smart because it continues to be a cost burden to industrialists for as long as they continue to play, rather than one lump sum for an expensive schematic that never needs to be replaced. In this way, the economy remains steady. No mega-industrialist who bought every schematic in the game 2 years ago and now provides 25% of the elements needed for the whole playerbase. They will have to rely on you to produce their items, buying your schematics from the market.

 

So you can recoup the costs of producing the schematics by just selling them on the market. The market value will never be below the cost to produce unless the item is just completely unwanted. So in a way, this system is actually an EASY INCOME for players. Just use your slots to produce desirable schematics and sell them on the market. Free money for you.

I get what you're saying and agree we need sinks and for the economy to get some balance. NQ also dropped the ball on countless occasions with many exploits that they blatantly ignored for months letting the economy get this way in the first place. Schematic shenanigans on .23 release and many other factory bugs that made people trillionaires and jacked up the whole thing. They also have the logs and could have squashed it then, but didn't. 

 

Now they're trying to fix issues they created by being lax on punishing exploits. Doing so by stealing every game mechanic they can from eve and calling it some new thing. Where's the creativity? Who in that meeting said yeah cool lets copy everything CCP does and play it off like someone actually thought of it. 

 

Where's the damn integrity?

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If you want to limit the number of schematics and therefore factory processes a single player can run, but also plan to introduce talents to increase the number of schematic copies a single player can produce, why not just go directly to talents controlling the number of industry processes a single player can run, and skip schematics altogether? 

 

Make it work like construct slots. Some for personal use, some to donate to an org for org industry. It would be consistent with a mechanic that already exists in game, and explicitly invokes cooperation via organizations. 

 

Edited by Midacre
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So will GOTT mart and Svea and others have to change out schematics out ever other day to fill shelves .. Or like the last change will they be grandfathered in...   

 

I will watch this.. but you just made one user cancel sub's.

 

First I had to buy 50 schematics to be able to make warp cells,  (think it is 47)  and now you will make me change out the schematic every other day to make them and pay each time....   This game is allready a time sink with the calibration and the server lag has made it horrible to play.     Now this BS!,,,,

 

I only make a dozen things.  But i spent 100's of million Q to get all the machines and Schematics but now I can make them whenever and for friends..       Right now if i want to make a window i walk down turn on a machine and the next day i have 10 windows.  If i want a XL space engine I grab 3 and the machines kick off auto and fill the  container back to 10..     Well I know you lost one paying subscriber with the VERY unprofessional way you brought up a whipe and then didnt say a bloody word for 2+ months,,   The House plant that came up with this idea should be put back in the pot and left in the sun for a very long time....

 

 

Sorry but this is the last draw for me..  Enjoy the game.,. ill pull up this weekend and unsub.  and check in once every 6months maybee you will get someone with some direction in the future.

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59 minutes ago, TobiwanKenobi said:

 

Guys, these fees and taxes are not only necessary, they're beneficial to you. The game needs quanta sinks. Without them there will be inflation and everything costs more. You lose purchasing power either way. Remember when hematite cost more than 100 q/L? This was because missions were pumping billions per day into the economy. Now missions are nerfed. People think of them as pointless - why would I want to fly 7 hours for a only 8M quanta? But after the wipe things will be different. If inflation is kept down missions remain relevant. A XL package mission might be enough to buy a M-core ship, or whole megaliter of T1 ore. But only if quanta is leaving the economy down the drain of sinks.

The players demanded cheaper territory taxes and NQ gave it to them. Now NQ has to make it up in other areas. They have metrics about the quanta coming into and leaving the game, and they know how much sink and how much faucet they need.

This system is smart because it continues to be a cost burden to industrialists for as long as they continue to play, rather than one lump sum for an expensive schematic that never needs to be replaced. In this way, the economy remains steady. No mega-industrialist who bought every schematic in the game 2 years ago and now provides 25% of the elements needed for the whole playerbase. They will have to rely on you to produce their items, buying your schematics from the market.

 

So you can recoup the costs of producing the schematics by just selling them on the market. The market value will never be below the cost to produce unless the item is just completely unwanted. So in a way, this system is actually an EASY INCOME for players. Just use your slots to produce desirable schematics and sell them on the market. Free money for you.


 

It's very relevant. thank you

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This post was confusing, it kind of sounds like the left/right hands of development aren't on the same page. Is this essentially saying, they're making 'core' schems and you have to print a consumable copy to run an industry - So now I have an additional possible reason to troubleshoot all the industry when they turn off?

 

PLEASE NO

  • What happens to current schematics, and factories running them?
  • Are schematic locations affected again? Some of the lower tier items can't be bought on alioth, sanctuary or haven, You have to go to at least Madis to find some BASIC ITEMS! Because of this people would stock up on schematics and overcharge those back on Alioth who couldn't be bothered (or have the capability) to warp there real quick. 
  • How will this benefit longtime/existing players? Cause it sounds like it isn't going to reward the hundreds of millions (billions) of quanta people have already spent to specialize in an industry or like me, dabble in a little of everything. 
  • If I have the cash, and want to purchase anything NOW, I'm not going to wait for a schematic to cook up in some queue. We already have a talent system that limits people that way. 
  • We literally just had a talent reset, it was unexpected and it took me hours of taking screenshots of every skill page, then referencing those each again took hours more to restore post-wipe.  This  update would most certainly require another talent wipe.
  • This update still does nothing to address the huge problem of the economy: theres no current way to show interest in buying certain items without a 100% deposit as a buy order. The Quanta just sits there and I have no way of knowing if/when the order will get filled. 
  • The bot-linked ores in the market have crashed the prices, now theres no incentive to have large hauls from planets because people just sell ores to the local market bot. This means no ones paying to have anything hauled and they don't need to move it themselves. I used to have T1-T4 mining units on various planets and have since gotten rid of all of them and moved just to a  giant T1 plot on alioth because its easier to make a profit and manage.
  • The mission system was just butchered, so options for earning quanta are extremely limited.

We've been seeing changes coming with regards to markets, the exchange, talk of recycling items down to lesser components, talk of wipes .... and I get it, clearly the devs are trying to take the next best step forward. So please lets have the step actually move forward. Everything this post made me think is that I've wasted time/quanta earning schematics, so now I will lose that investment in favor of another mini-game that doesn't address the bigger issues. I've been around since before schematics were put in and STILL recovering from the damage it did but after the dust settled and people adapted it wasn't THAT bad of a change but it came at a point in the game that seemed oddly late, was not thought out well enough, and HAD TONS OF ISSUES like disappearing randomly or having the value mistakenly altered giving some players a HUGE advantage over others. Honestly the only changes to them i want to see at this point:

  1. Cheaper. Some items and tiers are just so outrageously expensive that you're broke before you ever consider building anything you actually plan to put any time into. 
  2. Duplicates: ya its kinda lame having to buy more of the same schematic so a system where you have a core schem create copies would be nice.
  3. Maybe some of the lower stuff, decorations, etc re-added to nanocrafter. 

More quality of life improvements please, not a tedious step backwards.

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A balanced MMO is about more than sinks and faucets. The economy doesn't exist for its own sake. It's meant to drive fun. There should be a reason to buy and sell things. Getting a deal, making profit, buying new stuff is supposed to be part of the fun

 

Maybe this will add more sinks, and maybe that helps with balance...but if it also introduces more micromanagement and grind, that reduces engagement. The economy exists to support the game, not the other way around. 

 

This doesn't make people want to engage with the economy, it just makes quanta vanish. Not because you bought something fun, not because you're investing in your ship or your org, but because of more grind. 

 

NQ is designing a game, not an economy -- the economy exists to support the engagement of the game. NQ vacuuming up your money for the sake of having more sinks isn't engaging. 

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Honestly, I think this new proposed system is even worse than the current implementation of schematics. First, because it adds yet another two chores for the players, which are:

- Babysitting your character's schematic copying queue

- Going through each and every machine putting down new schematics

 

Let's get this out and clear, the whole point of industry and factories in a game is to automate things you don't want to do manually. If players were into having to babysit their stuff like this the nanopack would have way more usage than it currently does.

 

This new feature isn't gonna add more "fun" or "engagement" to the game, but just add yet another artificial limitation. You keep promoting the game as a player-driven sandbox but also try to mold it in your own ways, meanwhile things that should be given a bit more of attention, such as the gameplay department of "things to do inside the game" is lacking, specially after you're past the grinding part and into the "let's have fun" part, and adding a chore to the game won't fix that.

Like, why would someone pay a subscription of something where the only thing they have to do is to once in a while copy some schematics or calibrate miners, but have nothing actually fun to do?

 

Also, this new approach to schematics gives alt-account players yet another benefit. By this point I honestly think it's something intentional or by design, like an attempt at bringing P2W into DU but not in a very explicit way. I know NQ is desperate about money and keeping afloat, but maybe you should look into other ways of making an income, maybe letting players buy merch or even talent points and quanta, at least you would be honest about it.

 

Finally, if you guys want to make DU something cool and attractive, then why not look into stuff such as NPC fights or in-game events? Or lore and community quests? I mean, it's way better than adding yet another babysitting/chore "feature" that sounds worse than the already bad schematics we currently have...

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So you're now... what, leasing the Schematics instead of selling them ? You're patenting them ?

Whatever the word is and although I understand, thanks to @TobiwanKenobi, that this solution is more élégante than brute-force selling, it still means that technology belongs to "Aphelia" just like everything else: the lands, the markets, the wargrounds...

Once again, this is not our civilization we're building here.

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TobiwanKenobi said all. If you are not agree with his explication you should think about your place in the game.

Not try to change the game to exist in the game, because the most of people who crying on discord or forums don't want the game is succed they juste want a game for them and only them like a sologame. 


This mecanics is really smart.

in first It fix the problem of bigs factories held by a solo player".

In the second time, it fix how many items can be produce at the same time by a player

And with this, it will encourage people to trade / exchange / barter schematics vs item / ore / quanta / others schematics / service (talent / lua)

We just need to know the time and the cost for each type of schematic but i'm sure we will know soon with a pts ?

Edited by Kanamechan
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Hey guys, if you don't think that manage an industry is not fun, why you want manage an industry ???

 

People don't want a afk gameplay but they want a fully industry autonomus

i can't understand this point. 

 

Edited by Kanamechan
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Your proposed idea is wrong

if you desire commercial interaction between players 

you should do the following

 

 

1.reduce production costs (less ore more commodity )

2.  extend the production time of components

 

 

if I have a choice to do something for myself and wait a long time or pay little and buy it, I'll buy it

 

the problem is not in the schematics

the problem lies in the production balance

 

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Managing is maybe not the best word in this discussion, since industry should be about designing and tweaking a complex automation system trying to make it run as smooth and efficient as possible. That is the fun part in industry.

 

But that is not what NQ are giving players, since their version of "improvements" is to give players many small tasks that they have to repeat endlessly over and over again, regardless of how well the players designs their industry.

 

I.e. they are trying very hard to remove the automation part of industry, which effectively makes industry meaningless and no different from plowing the fields as a farmer.

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Instead of giving us a real system, we get another quickfix that only annoys everyone. Why buy Schematics at all? We should be able to find them on wrecks in space, explore & copy them. Then there would be real exploration.

 

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 every words is exactly what i can say thanks Czar  > I'm personally not a fan of this.  Industry may be annoying or time consuming or tedious in some aspects but the most important thing that industry and factories and building elements brings is purpose.  Goals to achieve as one expands and grows as a player.  For those of us that have big factories, a lot of us do because it provides literally years of gameplay.  I've been playing for 1.5 years now and every element I add to my factory is a personal accomplishment.  It's the culmination of selling blueprints that I've created, or mining or salvaging or missioning.  It's the year and a half of building something that's very intricate and delicate and complex and yes, tedious.  + ask your self how many days your life time you spend digging underground to get we say Rare XL manewer engine schematic (286 million price )(or we say beacon)  NQ you agayn going to wrong way !!

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All the people comparing game economy to real life economy. Real life economy works that way because limited resources mean it has to work that way.

 

Nobody plays a video game with a dream of working all day just to barely earn enough to buy the essentials so that they can come back and work all day again tomorrow and never get anywhere. People play video games with dreams that their efforts will yield wealth and power beyond what they would ever find in real life. Stop trying to create a virtual dead-end job.

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