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PVP Sucks


Slayer031992
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Ok so there may be posts or other places where this is discussed, but I need to say it. I am aware this is a beta game. Duh. However, the state of PVP is just ridiculous. I cannot be the only one who feels like this. It feels like we are playing a 1995 tanks game where they cannot handle the intricacies of visual combat. I would love a Elite Dangerous type play to the game. That game has been around since the late 80's, yes it was wire frame ships and all but you still got a better combat feeling than this game gives. There is no joy of manually firing a gun, no sub-system targeting, and letting your guns have at it. No targeting the engines so they cannot escape, no aiming for the shield generator so they cannot cycle the shields. No maneuvering and circling to get the best shots. It's aim at the core and pray your ship holds together while you trade fire. It's stagnant game play. The Core Combat Stress system is a step, a very teeny-tiny step in the right direction. But loosen up NQ, you want a Sandbox game, cool cool we can dig it. You want a PvP game, great! MAKE THE COMBAT WORTH OUR TIME!! Make the player in the fighter feel his terror at being shot at by a capital ship, make it so the gunners onboard a battleship feel and see the damage he does. Make the warfare feel like combat, and when you guys go to do the Construct vs Base/tile warfare listen to the community. Don't give this up!! You guys have a niche in the world we never thought could be filled but remember gamers are fickle, we have needs. We crave the violence and destruction as much as we crave the building of the ships, tanks, and jets to do it. 

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The biggest problems with PvP are and have always been:

  • Its not based in any skill since its basically tab target and not by actually requiring people to see the radar and get up close enough to actually target ships to lock onto them with homing missles, cannons, chainguns, etc.
  • Its not based on skill as much as PvP scripting to target people further away then you should or using warp scripts to pick up ships you should not be able to track warping using scraping bots to then have wolf packs waiting on the other side.
  • Its not about actually being able to dodge anything since missles travel faster than you can dodge since the game should be like atmo flight in a 4D space like all the Space EPs like Star Wars in which space battles are an emulation of dog fights and WW2 sea based combat.
  • Its not based on defense since shields are actually more of a double edged sword with core stress blowing your ship up and creating a bigger target to hit than forcing people to blow up and disable elements.
  • Its not about defense when there are no AI based turrets or real defenses like missle nano chaff, cloaking, emp's, or self destruct sequences as it is about just handing over your ship to some priveledge gimmie gimmie player who thinks they should just be handed everything you own.
  • Its not about slow boating since you can warp out of anything. Its not a bad thing since PvP is lame but with speed limits at 30K Kmph cap you cant outrun players or missles even if you should have had the jump on them leaving before them since missles essentially travel practically forever faster than you could ever outrun.
  • Its not about how much armaments you can add you can pretty much stack and fill a core with as much firepower as you want since the best defense in this game is pre offense with unlimited ammo, no power cells/reactors, overheating, jams, etc.
  • Its not about ground based combat since there are no surface to air defenses with fixed weapons that dont rotate or pivot and nobody is going to sit in a turret 24/7 protecting their base so its just going to be ships railing your base from the sky with no way to protect yourself shooting weapons from hella far away anyhow. None of it works without AI.

 

Until all of this changes this game aint a legit PvP game.

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Did any of you try out DU PvP with friends on a not staged fight? One can repeat what one hears from others like a parrot or try it out. DU PvP can be real fun if you are introduced to it by knowing people. Here is an example of something else than an L core in DU PvP XD

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Warlander said:

Until all of this changes this game aint a legit PvP game.

 

Well, DU has a PVP element, it is not however a "PVP game" and was never intended to be.

 

Tab target was always know to be a thing, inaccuracy and latency at distance as well (as quite clearly explained in the YT video on the server technology). The game has a built-in latency of 250ms as far as I recall from an earlier VLOG to maintain performance. I could see actual ping between you pressing a button and it happening on another players’ screen to be quite a bit longer, interaction server side being somewhere in the middle.

I think that the core structure of the server tech simply will not allow for the type of PVP many are looking for and that would not be a problem is NQ was clear about this, worked within the constraints they have and not try and make you think they will/can work to improve this or market it for what it is not. Part of the communication problem with NQ is their eternal desire to sweet talk (potential) players, talk around what they know they can't do, not be clear and open about what they _can_ do and make that the best it can be.

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7 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

 

Well, DU has a PVP element, it is not however a "PVP game" and was never intended to be.

 

Tab target was always know to be a thing, inaccuracy and latency at distance as well (as quite clearly explained in the YT video on the server technology). The game has a built-in latency of 250ms as far as I recall from an earlier VLOG to maintain performance. I could see actual ping between you pressing a button and it happening on another players’ screen to be quite a bit longer, interaction server side being somewhere in the middle.

I think that the core structure of the server tech simply will not allow for the type of PVP many are looking for and that would not be a problem is NQ was clear about this, worked within the constraints they have and not try and make you think they will/can work to improve this or market it for what it is not. Part of the communication problem with NQ is their eternal desire to sweet talk (potential) players, talk around what they know they can't do, not be clear and open about what they _can_ do and make that the best it can be.

Yup its not going to happen which is why I have been saying its a building game not a PvP game this whole time.

 

Well any performance gains they would have made they are going to waste with voxel vertex complexity, complex geometry, and voxel based asteroids rather than just resetting the land, removing teraforming completely, and actually freeing up performance which supposedly was the goal. They could have dropped another solar system with the gains to fight over. But instead that nor PvP will never happen.

 

They dont seem to understand that even planetary PvP relies on players having all the same resources on each planet to even facilitate some kind of fight between them instead of a top down steamroll or people spread across all planets essentially doing the same thing but making ore exclusive and not really requiring PvP.

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Anyone who thought that the pvp in DU could be anything like Elite, has zero understanding of game development.  There was never any chance that it was going to be anything other than tab targeted.  It is one of the sacrifices that needed to be made with no instancing. 

That doesnt mean NQ cant do a lot more to add layers and tactical variation. 

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this game does have pretty realistic combat, assuming you ignore how short of range it is. Baseline humans are just not good enough for anything except giving “future orders” in space combat.   

 

they really should do something about the approachability, or ease of access.  Their competitor Starbase lets you get away with tossing a gun and some ammo at a newbie and letting them be essentially a turret, salvaging party, or boarding party.  No skills to train over the course of weeks/months, the ability to forgo investing in a whole ship of you want, and the GUI is pretty much just First Person Shooter (compared to gunner seat, or messing with pilot widgets).

 

 

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1 hour ago, HangerHangar said:

this game does have pretty realistic combat, assuming you ignore how short of range it is. Baseline humans are just not good enough for anything except giving “future orders” in space combat.   

 

they really should do something about the approachability, or ease of access.  Their competitor Starbase lets you get away with tossing a gun and some ammo at a newbie and letting them be essentially a turret, salvaging party, or boarding party.  No skills to train over the course of weeks/months, the ability to forgo investing in a whole ship of you want, and the GUI is pretty much just First Person Shooter (compared to gunner seat, or messing with pilot widgets).

 

 

 

They tried to emulate modern warfare in the sense that targeting computers will blow you up 10km away before you ever see your target or you can launch a missle from the other side of the world and blow something up. Only reason that works is because of satalites, AI, etc that target it for you and all you have to do is pull the trigger and even now we have AI drones that do all that without even needing orders and taking off, selecting targets, landing, and putting itself waya without anyone having any input.

 

That is not fun as a gaming experience or movie tropes. How awesome would movies like star wars be if everything got blown up from 10 su away from their targets and there was not the dog fighting, dodging, and being able to blow things up like the death star if luke just got rando targeted 20 SU out and the credits rolled even though they had targeting computers and probes and all that it still relied on the skill of the pilots and not the long range auto lock even though you cant see them or we dont have statalites, orbital sensors, sensor arrays, probes, or anything supporting that.

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On 11/17/2021 at 10:00 AM, Slayer031992 said:

 NQ, you want a Sandbox game, cool cool we can dig it. You want a PvP game, great! 

 

This is a fundamental misunderstanding in the player community.  When NQ talks about a Sandbox game they aren't talking about the Sandbox genre, they are talking about the tech level of the game.

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Hey.

 

PvP in DU is a complicated topic that has to be split into smaller chunks if we want to discuss it properly. I don't want to discuss it for too long because I have the feeling that no one from NQ reads that anyway. But in case I'm wrong I'll just add my minimized Feedback for them here.

  • Basic principles of combat mechanics in DU
    • It's not an arcade type of the gameplay, instead we have a slow paced tactical approach where a cold blood and wise decisions are much more valuable then players skill and reflexes.
      • You can like it or not but I love it. In my opinion this is something that positively distinguishes DU from other games  (just my personal preference here).
    • Much of the combat is focused on handling your ship. Building mode and repairs during combat, venting shields, patching the hull, refilling the rocket taks and so on.
      • This is also fantastic for me. Unfortunately after introducing shields, allowing remote controller and makeing honeycomb weaker this part of the gameplay almost dissapeared. I think that this could be brought back by better balancing stuff.
  • Quality of the delivery
    • It's so bad that I don't know where to start. Very poor balance, memory leaks, ship acceleration related to game session time, No RPS mechanics, the ship stopping still while the player switch view and so for, and so on...
  • Combat Depth
    • It is very shallow right now in terms of interesting combat mechanics. Lacks stuff like aiming at something specific, systems countering systems, electronic warfare etc.
    • ...fortunately it is partially saved by the ship building mechanics that allows players to create a bit different strategies based on their designs. However poor balance and no RPS makes this part quite flat as well.
  • Meaningful PvP
    • For me Meaningful PvP means giving players a good reason to have it in game.
      • In my opinion DU delivers it really well. This whole asteroid thing really do the job here. 
      • I would like to see more missions in space that are well paid and not boring as package carring that gives players high reward but take place in the pvp zone.
  • Railguns
    • Why the hell you can putt only 3 railguns when you max your skills ?!   (I'm gonna add this to all my posts Carthage style ;) )

To sum up. For me it's one of the best space PvP i ever played even though it's delivered in quality so bad thatyou coul write a book about it. Personally I would never change the basic principles here, just elaborate and polish until it shines.

 

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  • 1 month later...

It has been clear from the very start that combat would be the way it is right now. Elite Dangerous, Star Wars or Star Citizen space combat is not at all feasible with the game's infrastructure, with voxel technology already devouring most processing and server performance.

The pvp ad videos of NQ are scripted little things that wont realistically happen in ordinary happenstance. Carriers deploying fighters that dogfight around the big battleships that slug it out, Star Wars style, does look intriguing and is an eye catcher, but simply not a thing that happens outside of dedicated community events.

The best comparison you should draw your PvP expectations from is The Expanse franchise. Combat there happens through 3 (or 4 if you count flinging asteroids) weapons:

-railguns for long distance, but they are dodgable the further away the target is,

-torpedoes with practically unlimited distance, and

-PDC (point-defense cannons) which are for close quarter battle (CQB) or to actively take out torpedoes.
There you have 3 modes of range: torpedoes for far up to unlimited range, railgun for effective middle range upon moving targets and PDC as close range.
And most every single fight is decided in the long ranges by torpedoes and railguns. We are talking hundreds of kilometers. PDCs take out the torpedo threats but otherwise chances that ships even get close enough to riddle eachother with bullet holes of PDCs instead of already blowing up from the other 2 weapon types is very small.

In DU you have a similar concept, but 4 weapon types:

-Railguns for max range, high damage per shot but low dps
-laser for medium to long range, higher rate of fire and dps
-missiles for medium range, high damage per salvo, kinda like a "shotgun" to quote NQ themselves
-cannons for close to medium range, low damage per shot but high rate of fire for strong dps

Currently, and for the foreseeable future, PvP combat engagements will happen at rather large ranges, taking out targets at hundreds of kilometers before you would even be able make out a target with your eyes alone. Chances a ship with XS or S weaponry (being an XS or S core) getting close enough to an L ship to effectively use something like cannons is very slim. With ships all maxing out at 30.000 km/h they wouldn't be able to close the distance anyway, unless the approached L core wills it so.

I like the idea of long-range combat like this and am comfortable with it. IMHO we'd need small core vessels to be able to slot L or M weaponry to their S gunner seats (even if 1 L weapon completely maxes out the capacity of the chair) to make smaller core ships fill a niche and make them viable as being near impossible to hit by L cores while being able to meaningfully engage them at THEIR ranges. Then they could in return be countered by dedicated gun platforms with smaller caliber weapons to take out these niche S ships due to hit probs. Lots of balancing and math involved with that concept idea, but worth thinking about.

Otherwise pvp could maybe benefit some visual improvements. If you shoot something and go into third person you should see a little light flicker in the distance from the impact of your shot, not just having a hole appear on the enemy ship in the telescope.

PS: damn, look at me monologuing

Edited by Metsys
edit: typos
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3 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

Well like in every MMO that reached phase of certain degradation there is this holy trinity:

 

1) PvP is fundamentaly shit.

2) Small ramaining group of die-hard/forever playing fans (shit-eating connoisseurs of sort) raping everything that moves using like best equipment/all skills max/gank etc (insert in context of particular game). On forums/discords they always say PvP is fine, you just need to git gut.

3) Everyone one else upon discovering this preset of events starting to wonder what they still doing there. 

 

 

So, what are you still doing here?  It seems like you've reached the point that you're so pissy that other people are enjoying the game, and you aren't, that you're actually mad at the players now too.

 

That doesn't seem healthy.

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On 11/17/2021 at 9:11 PM, Walter said:

Did any of you try out DU PvP with friends on a not staged fight? One can repeat what one hears from others like a parrot or try it out. DU PvP can be real fun if you are introduced to it by knowing people. Here is an example of something else than an L core in DU PvP XD

 

 

 

I’ve really enjoyed pvp in DU in the past. Fundamentally what makes pvp fun for me is when there is risk involved, do people care about their ships, are they worth a lot? Everything else is secondary.

 

I do find it concerning that the devs havnt managed to make even the simplest of changes like putting speed limits based on core sizes. 

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5 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

Well like in every MMO that reached phase of certain degradation there is this holy trinity:

 

1) PvP is fundamentaly shit.

2) Small ramaining group of die-hard/forever playing fans (shit-eating connoisseurs of sort) raping everything that moves using like best equipment/all skills max/gank etc (insert in context of particular game). On forums/discords they always say PvP is fine, you just need to git gut.

3) Everyone one else upon discovering this preset of events starting to wonder what they still doing there. 

 
Completely missed the actual content of the post just to talk shit. Get outta here, troll elsewhere

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14 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

So, what are you still doing here? 

 

And who are you to tell me what to do? Let me guess -- nobody.

 

They took my money, not delivered what promised. So I having fun on forums at least, much better then actual game.

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20 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

Well like in every MMO that reached phase of certain degradation there is this holy trinity:

 

1) PvP is fundamentaly shit.

2) Small ramaining group of die-hard/forever playing fans (shit-eating connoisseurs of sort) raping everything that moves using like best equipment/all skills max/gank etc (insert in context of particular game). On forums/discords they always say PvP is fine, you just need to git gut.

3) Everyone one else upon discovering this preset of events starting to wonder what they still doing there. 

It's funny to see your messages here, because you quit playing, but still come here.

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Well, lest not turn it into piligrimage of everyone who recognized themeveslves im my message and felt butthurt and now wants to say how wrong I am or how they like me. I accept your homage. Dismissed.

 

Lets go to adding something substantional to topic in hand. How bad pvp is, why, etc.

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PvP should be more present. The radars are not powerful enough and the safe zone is too advantageous. Players only die when they are with large L or M cargo ships which results in instant quitting rage. There will be more resilience if players learn to die with XS or S beforehand.

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8 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

PvP should be more present. The radars are not powerful enough and the safe zone is too advantageous. Players only die when they are with large L or M cargo ships which results in instant quitting rage. There will be more resilience if players learn to die with XS or S beforehand.

 

S core should also out run L core relatively easy in most cases. 

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Wasn't there something about "speed by core size" in one of the more recent discord Q/As?

 

well.. very little "something"

 

QUESTION

https://discord.com/channels/184691218184273920/914967982067834952/915618429204066355

"Combat Balance"

 

NQ-ANSWER

https://discord.com/channels/184691218184273920/914967982067834952/915626620088381441

 

You’re right on a lot of these points, and it’s something we are looking at. Specifically there are going to be changes to max speeds in various ways and we’re hoping to address a lot of these issues with those changes. I won't go too much into detail on all the changes but the idea that smaller lighter ships can be faster than larger heavier ones is something we’re on, with everything that implies and some extra goodies.
 
DEC, 1st 2021
Edited by TildaW4
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3 minutes ago, TildaW4 said:

Wasn't there something about "speed by core size" in one of the more recent discord Q/As?

 

Yes, and it's something that likely will become a reality soon. Which is a good thing. Question is implementation.  Will it be varied by mass. Or will NQ just hard cap core sizes. Probably most people want the former.  But the latter would probably be easier to impliment for NQ. However it comes around, I think its very welcome. The games overall health in pvp will be better if S and M cores are the main goto ships for pvp. And XS and L play a niche role.  Finally smaller weapons would have an ability to get close enough to get in their short ranges to apply dps. And while being cheaper and a little less skills will be good for getting newbros into pvp, while also having them have a real impact on the battle field. 

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On 11/18/2021 at 10:45 PM, Kobayashi said:

Anyone who thought that the pvp in DU could be anything like Elite, has zero understanding of game development. There was never any chance that it was going to be anything other than tab targeted. It is one of the sacrifices that needed to be made with no instancing.

That doesnt mean NQ cant do a lot more to add layers and tactical variation.

Finally, at least one clever conclusion .. and I completely agree that those who want an FPS shooter in a game with a single server (with global huge world) have no idea how this should work. It is immediately obvious that the combat system will be - as in one space game .. let's not name it, everyone knows it .. lock targeting.

But add more variability, balance, elements of radar warfare, etc. it is quite feasible here .. and we really hope it will be, as other things can make pvp more interesting.

Edited by Feriniya
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On 11/18/2021 at 10:57 PM, HangerHangar said:

this game does have pretty realistic combat, assuming you ignore how short of range it is. Baseline humans are just not good enough for anything except giving “future orders” in space combat.

 

they really should do something about the approachability, or ease of access. Their competitor Starbase lets you get away with tossing a gun and some ammo at a newbie and letting them be essentially a turret, salvaging party, or boarding party. No skills to train over the course of weeks/months, the ability to forgo investing in a whole ship of you want, and the GUI is pretty much just First Person Shooter (compared to gunner seat, or messing with pilot widgets).

 

 

Starbase is no longer a competitor to anyone .. Starbase is already more than dead .. forget about it :)

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