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NQ suggests buffing engines, your thoughts?


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NQ engines buff suggestions: your take  

97 members have voted

  1. 1. should engines be buffed?

    • yes
      62
    • no
      28
    • im not sure
      7
  2. 2. what updates would greatly effect this change, in your opinion

    • energy management
      52
    • PVP revamp
      14
    • new ship parts (XL cores, XL atmospheric engines, XL fuel tanks, etc)
      31
  3. 3. do you think engines will get buffed, like it or not

    • yes
      26
    • no
      25
    • wait and see
      46


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Current power seem quite balanced to me, sending heavy cargo into space shouldn't be too easy, maybe change rockets into something more viable so that more people will use them if you want to have better looking ships without engine walls. I'd agree with this proposal only if the energy system is introduced too so that it will reduce the amount of engines, but it won't make flying too easy.

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They could just create 2L, 3L and 4L engines that are 2x, 3x and 4x longer and heavier and provide 2x, 3x or 4x boost. no need to change their profiles, just extrude the shapes out longer. I know how NQ loves minimum work required solutions. they'd just be 2x 3x and 4x expensive, heavy, etc.


Or they could allow elements to be stacked inline from front to back and combine their thrusts. (note, by stacking, I don't mean glitching) i.e.  lay them along the length of the vessel and add their thrust to the unit directly behind it.

 

first one seems simple enough to me...

 

 

 

 

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The main problem isn't the power of the engines at all. It is that there is no XL atmospheric engine, so that will fix itself with XL parts. 

I am even of the opinion that the high efficiency of atmospheric engines should be severly nerved and the rocket fuel consumation rate of rocket engines quartered and capacity halfed.

 

That would make for much more balanced and diverse gameplay. The pure atmospheric ships, the pure space ships and the ones able to launch into space.

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Bruh. They nerfed engines into the ground a year ago. We had engine walls then and still do now. There will only ever be a change to that if theres some limit on engines thats actually hard to overcome. 

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Maybe they could experiment with moduls that could boost the engines. Like "Turbopumps" that just multiplies the thrust and fuel usage. 

 

Or to go even father and make a second tier of engines that consist out of multiple individual Elements so that you only need to place the noozle on the outside and can hide the rest of the elements in the inside. (I know alot of work and more long term) This could even be used to make the whole building mechanik more complex and modular with even higher specialisation)

 

But I dont think just buffing the engines is a solution. Building will just become even easier and you no longer need to think about what it needs to do because with way more thruster every Ship can do everything.

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4 minutes ago, Skeletmaster said:

Maybe they could experiment with moduls that could boost the engines. Like "Turbopumps" that just multiplies the thrust and fuel usage. 

 

Or to go even father and make a second tier of engines that consist out of multiple individual Elements so that you only need to place the nozzle on the outside and can hide the rest of the elements in the inside. (I know alot of work and more long term) This could even be used to make the whole building mechanic more complex and modular with even higher specialization)

 

But I dont think just buffing the engines is a solution. Building will just become even easier and you no longer need to think about what it needs to do because with way more thruster every Ship can do everything.

 

We are good with making things harder to build however adding 1000's of elements is not making it hard to build.   it just makes more lag.    Requiring air intakes pipes and electrical connections is fine by me.     requiring us to build boxes is out of the question and a deal breaker for me and most of the good builders.  

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XL engines are an absolute must. having these walls of engines is totally inpractical, same goes for xs brakes, xs space fuel tanks, and xs hovers.

 

would be even cooler if XL atmo engines were shaped much taller and thinner than XL spaces (a bit like giant xs engines) to encourage people to build cooler looking ships other than a big box with engines on the back.

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Buffing engines will only  make people carry more shit. The problem is that people want to carry amounts of mass into space which realistically should not be possible.

 

Now NQ is clearly working towards gamifying DU to "make it more accessible". Engines were once more powerful, NQ thought severely nerfing them was a good plan. At the time we told them that the result would be the exact "engine walls" we now have. If NQ would buff the engines again, it would not result in players using less engines, it would result in players yanking more mass around with the same amount of engines UNLESS they make engines _way_ more expensive to build and buy. But then they would play right into the hands of the players who they have allowed to amass massive amounts of money and resources through several unhandled exploits.

 

What may work would be cost for elements on constructs in general, preferable though a proper power management system to sustain engines and ideally combined with a capacitor system driving the engaging of engines..

 

 

What would be really nice to see is NQ redesigning the whole element system to integrate more with voxels. Create engines which are more neutral in shape and be easier to integrate INTO  the hull, preferably with a voxel type that doe snot obstruct engine exhaust or even glow when it is hit by exhaust allowing for some cool designs. Engines could be shaped in a way that you can combine one or more engines and a tank to form one unit and build on that.  Talking about tanks, what about rectangular shaped tanks?

 

Elements have not changed _at all_ since we first saw them in pre alpha. Frankly a lot of elements look terribly dated and out of place.

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Give us power management which really restrict the number of engines etc which can be on a ship.

 

...but then at the same time give us grades of engines which can be manufactured, and buffs for engines placement. Combine that and hopefully we can have good looking ships, fewer elements, and if you want a faster or more powerful engine you invest in a costlier high grade engine

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To make it easy for NQ to do in a short timeframe.  They could limit the number of engines per core and  buff the engines x 6.  doing this will make M engines  viable for something more than XS ships.     This should be fairly simple to do. 

  

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The problem is NQ will not have the guts to actually implement a proper power management system which will require though and choices in design and use. They will bolt on a system which pretty much just provides even better performance. Power management will be a buff, not the control mechanic it should be. For power management to really be a functional and deep mechanic it would need to be in at the core of every design (choice) and that is IMO not something NQ ever accounted for or wants.

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Don't really see the point in buffing engines and, in reality, engine walls are what they are - and attempt to lift vast amounts of cargo in places.

 

The 'proper' way to fix this would be to add in a concept of strain on the airframe when in gravity - after all that (and cost) is the reason we don't get engine walls lifting ridiculous amounts aloft in real life. At some point the materials cannot stand up to the strain.

 

If it were done 'properly' then most heavy stuff would only be supported (when under gravity) by hovers and flying would be restricted to a smallish number of tonnes in weight. Not going to happen though I don't think. People would likely revolt! It would then be rockets for bridging planets and space probably putting the game back where it was intended and removing hybrids except for very small payloads.

 

 

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I don't believe engines need universal bump to pre-nerf times.  But having said there should really be more meaningful difference between different favors of the same size engines. As it works right now, there's no reason to bother with anything but military variant of any engine.  More varied fuel-to-thrust-to-weight-to-fuel consuption would go to differentiate between the engine grades of the same size. 

 

As for the engine wall problem, no matter what the effective thrust is, people will always fit as many engines as they can to haul as much as they can.  The only true solution if to finally implement powergrid on cores and have each engine type and variant specific powergrid requirement to link.  A size of core or a reactor size connected to core would determine max available grid to link all active elements.  Shipbuilding would than become more of balancing game between different operational requirements and would have been good foundation for further game systems to implemented related to guns, defensive systems  etc.

 

Wings, stabilizers and ailerons i feel are more of an immediate issue. Current models for wings are pure garbage. what's more  you can't even properly add adjustors to its surfaces without insane amount of fiddling and attachment point issues are not even worth talking about.  Rest of the airfoils also have a fair more quirks than they should have. Weight of ailerons vs their lift and size make the large sizes quite impractical to use.   Also some interoperability and consistency between wings /stabilizers  and ailerons wouldn't hurt either.  

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

The problem is simply that engines aren't balanced against anything else, meaning that there is no trade-off for using them. As long as you can keep throwing more fuel at it. Which pays for itself when you can use it to carry more resources. Simply buffing or nerfing them won't have the desired effect. XL atmo engines won't solve this either, if they're just used to make XL engine walls.

 

Some ideas for things to balance engines against:

  • Strain/structural integrity (this used to be a planned feature, what happened to it?): Constructs that employ disproportionate forces, e.g. from engine walls or high acceleration/speed, or that are carrying disproportionate weight, should correspondingly be built with disproportionate amount of voxels. To prevent the construct from being torn apart in flight.
  • Power system (is this still a planned feature?):
    • Power elements of various sizes, possibly different types (fuel, fusion, antimatter, solar, wind, whatever).
    • Diminishing returns on stacked power elements?
    • Capacitor elements that can be charged to provide temporary bursts of high power output.
    • Engine power requirement depends on throttle, plus a flat base rate depending on engine size.
  • Thermal/cooling system, needed by engines at high throttle, or by power elements at high load (or both!).

 

If weapons and shields need power and/or cooling as well, then this also allows for more specialization in construct roles (e.g. heavy cargo ships will have to sacrifice weapons and shields for more engine power, fighter craft can balance between offense/defense/speed/maneuverability, etc).

 

Once engine balancing is sorted, XL atmo engines would certainly be nice.

I'd vote for this - but can you imagine the gnashing of teeth, tearing out of hair and general wailing that would accompany this? Basically almost nothing currently in existence would fly any more!!

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I think the pocket ship is the way to go. 

Max 20T, Max 3 Engines, No container. 
Why not have each Size dynamic core have its own set of rules. Max Engines, Max Containers. 

But increase engine power and wing lift a lot. 

Let's take a ship with 1 Expanded Container filled with Hematite. 
Thats almost 3KT Cargo. (calculating with max ship build skills)
You will need 6 Large Military Engines to escape Alioth. (More like 8 if you add ships own weight and fuel)

Next to this, it will need 8 Large Stabilizors or 32 Medium Wings to have enough lift.

 

Fill up this container with Gold, you looking at 4times these numbers.

 

The ratios are off. It makes for ugly designs. 

Thrust and Lift need to go up by a lot. 

Limit if needed by amount of elements  / Wings / Engines. Not nerf them and make ships unrealistic and ugly.

 

I love the idea of adding modulair systems to increase power. Rather than place more engines, add power to it by linking elements. Increase Thrust, without the walls.

 

 

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There are always minimum and maximum limits. 

Minimum are defined by physics. No artificial hard coded limits for minimum set of engines. 

By buffing engines those min. Requirements change by natural way. 

Best solution is to have also max power defined by gameplay features, such as physics, not by artificial hard coded limits. 

Right Engine power is newer absolute truth. 

We are not in survival game where everything must be limited heavily. This is SCIF space game. Are we there now? 

Important variable is how buff will change gameplay.  

Will gameplay be more interesting?  

Or maybe less frustrating? 

Etc. 

My opinion remains, that engine buff will make game better and less frustrating. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bozarius said:

I think the pocket ship is the way to go. 

Max 20T, Max 3 Engines, No container. 
Why not have each Size dynamic core have its own set of rules. Max Engines, Max Containers. 

But increase engine power and wing lift a lot. 

Let's take a ship with 1 Expanded Container filled with Hematite. 
Thats almost 3KT Cargo. (calculating with max ship build skills)
You will need 6 Large Military Engines to escape Alioth. (More like 8 if you add ships own weight and fuel)

Next to this, it will need 8 Large Stabilizors or 32 Medium Wings to have enough lift.

 

Fill up this container with Gold, you looking at 4times these numbers.

 

The ratios are off. It makes for ugly designs. 

Thrust and Lift need to go up by a lot. 

Limit if needed by amount of elements  / Wings / Engines. Not nerf them and make ships unrealistic and ugly.

 

I love the idea of adding modulair systems to increase power. Rather than place more engines, add power to it by linking elements. Increase Thrust, without the walls.

 

 

Current aircrafts can fly a few hundred tons (boeing 747 can fly 400 tons, if google is right)

Falcon 9 can get 22 tons to orbit according to space x website

 

I know it is the future, but maybe we shouldn't get to trivialize transporting 3KT Cargo from planets to planets with a single ship

 

I believe we need better rockets, specialized to get heavy cargo to orbit => we would have specialized cargo ship for surface to orbit and then a specialized space cargo would take it from there.

Hover engines should be the preferred way to move heavy cargo in atmo

Atmo engine should be used for small cargo / passenger.

 

 

 

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