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SAVE THE DATE: ATHENA ON PTS MARCH 31ST - discussion thread


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Just add a second solar system for new players, there they can start from 0 and build their own society.

At a later time, you can then build huge space gates through large community projects to connect these solar systems. Win-win for all.

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1 hour ago, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

Hi Noveans,

 

First thank you everyone for your feedback about the Athena PTS Announcement. We saw a lot of questions and concerns raised, and we will try to adress them as much as possible in the coming days. We want to bring some clarification already to some of the topics mentioned in this forum thread:

 

@fridaywitch

@Thunderblaze

@PotatoMart

You caught onto the word “wipe” that was in the announcement. Please know that:

  • As of today, there has not been a decision made about a server reset also known as a wipe. It is something that we are aware of that has been causing very heated player discussions and when we have more information about this topic, it will definitely be passed along to everyone as soon as we can. 
     
  • Nothing more has been said than what has been already mentioned on Discord earlier this year - that we were discussing the topic internally - so this is just a follow-up of what has been already said (and makes the thing more official), with the addition that the team will come to a conclusion soon. At some point, we need to address the Elephant in the room.
     
  • We are also aware that it has been a recurring question since Beta Launch, and though we weren't able to give a proper answer on that topic for a very long time, the wait is going to come to an end. A lot of options have been discussed. The final decision will not be made on a whim, the team will be taking into consideration and pondering carefully all factors and sides to the topic. More info on that in the coming weeks to enter into the details. If we don't give details right now, it's because the discussions are still in progress and it's a bit too soon to confirm anything.
     
  • We understand that some of you may feel as if we were not caring or being direspectful towards you, our players. However, if we do communicate on this sensible topic ahead of the official release, it's precisely because we do care about the Community and your feedback. What could have been disrespectful would be to announce the decisions one or two weeks before Official Release, giving no time for you to express your feedback. In our opinion, you deserve to know what are the ongoing topics currently discussed internally at Novaquark (even though we can't share the details yet). At least, you know which topics are coming on the table soon (or which ones are already on the table).
     
  • Some of you may also feel that we're not communicating enough, or maintaining a "deafening silence". Please keep in mind we promised to have better communication and better transparency with the Community. We are currently communicating what we can communicate right now. Not answering on the spot, right after the announcement, is not a sign of ignoring the Community. It may require gathering feedback first, discussing it with the team, before being able to give a proper answer. Replying in the 24/48 hours is usually a common time window. We also completely understand that it may seem frustrating right now to not have more details and we ask you for just a bit more patience. 
     
  • Please keep also in mind that we do value your support and the time you invested in Dual Universe so far, and no matter which decision the team will make in the future, we take this part seriously into account in the decision making process, so you won't start from zero even in the most drastic scenarios considered.

@CptLoRes

@blundertwink

About “this is all we get for the final game”:

  • Please understand that if Athena is the last major update before Official Release, it doesn’t mean it’s the last update before Official Release, we may have one or more smaller updates before official release, having less content, but content that could really improve the game and/or the user experience a lot.
     
  • Official Release doesn’t mean “the final game” at all. The roadmap will continue after the official release and many more updates are planned. 

 

We hope this clarifies a bit the Novaquark team's stance on those topics.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

This maybe be an unpopular opinion but i dont care. I hope NQ puts in fixes to the problems with the in-game economy between now and release and i hope internally NQ decides on a partial wipe solution. However any partial wipe must not have any prior announcment otherwise it completely looses its desired effect (Players will find every loop hole possible in record time if given details).

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If NQ does not rethink implemented systems and fix broken / un-fun mechanics, there is just no use for a wipe.
Seeing that NQ heads to a release of the status quo is for me kind of expected but also crush the last hope for DU.

I don't see how DU shall be sustainable with afk/offline mechanics, broken economy, lack of fun and motivating game mechanics. Even with a release wipe, loads of advertisements and huge influx of new players..the game will converge fast with the status we have now.

 

I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong by time, but i think is will be the coffin nail for DU 😒

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I do understand that the game will be updated post-release -- every live MMO changes drastically over time. 

 

The concern is that the game won't be polished enough on release to continue development and get to that magical post-release cycle where you have enough players to be stable. 

 

I do hope that these minor updates greatly improve the experience and add a lot more polish (especially around FTUE), but we've seen the development cadence and we know how much there is to do. 

 

Being able to update post-release isn't a given -- we've seen how this works with the public beta. A spike of popularity in the weeks after release -- and you have that one window of high visibility. One chance at a first impression. One opportunity to take that spike of new players and cultivate it into long-term subs. 

 

These players won't be patient -- they won't stick around to see how the game is improved unless they fall in love with it as it is on release day 1

 

Some will, but won't most follow the same trend as beta players and never escape the speeder phase? What happens if that window of high visibility passes and churn rates aren't much better than public beta...? 

 

Also, the game has to prove its worth every month -- so unless updates come monthly, the game as it exists on release will need to make a big enough impression to keep the bulk of these new players engaged and subbed for several billing cycles (3-4 based on past development velocity). 

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4 hours ago, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

We understand that some of you may feel as if we were not caring or being direspectful towards you, our players. However, if we do communicate on this sensible topic ahead of the official release, it's precisely because we do care about the Community and your feedback. What could have been disrespectful would be to announce the decisions one or two weeks before Official Release, giving no time for you to express your feedback. In our opinion, you deserve to know what are the ongoing topics currently discussed internally at Novaquark (even though we can't share the details yet). At least, you know which topics are coming on the table soon (or which ones are already on the table).

 

 

I have to say i'm having a hard time understanding this.

 

When you say you're discussing a wipe internally, do you mean that you're discussing whether there is, or might be a technical reason that would require a wipe?  

 

Or are you discussing the possibility of wiping current customer's progress, for the purpose of providing a "fresh start" for perspective new customers?

 

The last clear statement that we were given was that you would do your best not to wipe our progress.  And I've been playing the game with that statement in mind, since then.

 

Saying that you are having a discussion, without clarifying which of those discussions you are having, is just throwing more gasoline on the fire.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

You caught onto the word “wipe” that was in the announcement.

 

It's a multitude of factors and not as straightforward as you make it out here.

 

Late last year, Sesch actually announced that more detail ona wipe woudl be shared in January. That never happened and any ask for clarification met with silence.

 

I'll be honest with you, knowing you must keep your CM hat on at all times, but I find it very hard to believe that NQ has not yet made the call on whether to wipe or not. at this stage that question really should hav ebeen answered internally.

Those of us who have been around for many, many years now have a pretty good handle on the NQ-isms and how to translate what is being said. You, as CM will always have to publically say that it's just speculation sure, I get that. But I am pretty sure you know more/better and I am not far off the mark.

 

For me it seems very obvious that NQ will "release" this year, I've said many times that my expectation is that will happen end of the year. If Athena is the last Major update and there may be a few smaller ones after it then that timeframe still is very viable IMO.

 

I also could actually see a massive incentive for NQ to wipe prior to that release as it cleears out all the stuff that belongs to beta accounts which will go inactiev at release. It also offers a big opportunity to monetize a headstart option which would be a good incentive for those beta accounts to actually sub and so they will be asked to do so for a period of 6 or 12 months in exchange for the same early start as backers will have. Lastly, while I believe that to be incorrect, a lot of potential new player will not like comeing into a two year old world and the "no way to catch up" arguiment will be hard often. Again, do not agree with that idea, but it will be there and I'm sure NQ knows it.

So, as all that makes perfect sense from a business perspective for NQ, I believe a wipe is inevitable.

 

That said, going on the expectation that the yes/no question for a wipe was ansswered internally, staying quiet on "we will not wipe and let players deal with abandoned constructs as well as have chosen to let the game absorb the damage done by exploits and other instances as we expect it will even out over time"  would simply not make sense as making that call now would end the debate and mostly be accepted just fine. 

To be honest as far as a wipe I'd be fine either way but think that a wipe is the better option and based on the above expect that NQ shares that opinion.

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I've spoken to a few players about a wipe, and the majority of those players (myself included) will quit Dual Universe on a wipe and won't come back.

Many players have invested a lot of time and are not willing to do it again. The problem with the market is simply that there are not enough players at the moment to have a normal supply and demand relationship.
Even a wipe will only change that for a very short time.

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29 minutes ago, Stormis said:

I've spoken to a few players about a wipe, and the majority of those players (myself included) will quit Dual Universe on a wipe and won't come back.

Many players have invested a lot of time and are not willing to do it again. The problem with the market is simply that there are not enough players at the moment to have a normal supply and demand relationship.
Even a wipe will only change that for a very short time.

the question is not how many players you lose through a wipe, but how many new players NQ can gain through a wipe.

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Can someone help me understand what it is a new player is excluded from when they join the existing game?  What content does the existing game world prohibit a new player from doing?   I hear this talk about letting people get a fresh start and a new release so everyone has an equal advantage or whatever... but I haven't heard what it is these new players wouldn't be able to do?   How does one "win" DU and if there is no "winning" then how can there be an advantage?  

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Thank you very much for the clarifications.

Here is my opinion:

I cannot say a wipe should or should not happen thought I personally would prefer that there won't be a wipe.

But if there is a wipe, then I suggest this:
- the tiles keep their ore types and amounts and excavations cavities
- tile ownership remains for the players
- all constructs will be wipe-blueprinted automatically or manually, those wipe-BPs also contain the exact location and angles so they restore the constructs as they were before, once the player has accumulated again all honeycombs and elements needed

The big question is: what is the purpose of a wipe. To have all players, old and new ones, starting the resource gathering from the same economical position? In this case, I would say, after the game has been launched, there will always be new gamers coming in that will start at zero, while other players have already accumulated resources. So, this would not be any reason, in my view.

I think, if new players enter a Dual Universe that is already full of wonderful, creative ships, this is the best motivation I could think of. Yet a reason NOT to wipe.

The WIPE discussion should mention, what a WIPE is meant to achieve, only then his discussion would be more qualified, at least from the side of us players.

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17 minutes ago, Hirnsausen said:

But if there is a wipe, then I suggest this:

 

So you are not really for or against, you'd prefer to not see a wipe but if ther is one you'd like t see it basically not impactamuch of what you now have, if anything.

Did I understand that correctly? As if I did, I'd say you are actally against a wipe.

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6 hours ago, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

Please understand that if Athena is the last major update before Official Release, it doesn’t mean it’s the last update before Official Release, we may have one or more smaller updates before official release, having less content, but content that could really improve the game and/or the user experience a lot.

Either the game is considered main feature complete and you release because of it, which many, me included, are afraid of, as it means the game will not get any of the many things it still needs.

Or you release the game despite not being finished, which means you are running out of money and try to get a last round of funds in a sink or swim move.

So which one is it?

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23 minutes ago, FerroSC said:

Can someone help me understand what it is a new player is excluded from when they join the existing game?  What content does the existing game world prohibit a new player from doing?   I hear this talk about letting people get a fresh start and a new release so everyone has an equal advantage or whatever... but I haven't heard what it is these new players wouldn't be able to do?   How does one "win" DU and if there is no "winning" then how can there be an advantage?  

sure here are some things where new players have disadvantages:

- new players can not craft things to make profit from them, because they lack the skills and the prices are partly below production prices anyway (oversupply of items and ores)

- new players find it difficult to get good ore tiles

- new players have a harder time to get Quanta

- new players can only look for their home away from the markets

 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

-
 

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Have not seen a good reason to wipe yet.

Every reason I seen will exist 12 months post release wipe or not.
 

I want to hear from the Pro Wipe folks! 
 

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For me it would be really very interesting why NQ would even consider a wipe. Only when we know this reason can a serious and meaningful discussion take place. Without a reason it is just hot air that is produced without having any benefit.

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17 minutes ago, Endstar said:

Have not seen a good reason to wipe yet.

Every reason I seen will exist 12 months post release wipe or not.
 

I want to hear from the Pro Wipe folks! 
 

you have to ask NQ. Their resaon in my opininion is to get more ppl to the Game then loosing with a new start.

 

The only valid reasons I've heard from pro-people is that players have unlawfully enriched themselves through exploits and bugs.

Personally, I don't care.

Another reason often given is mismanagement. The would be in my eyes but again after a short time there. No matter whether there are now a few less free betaaccaunts or not. Missions are flown and thus there will always be too much money in the game.
Ore will again be in oversupply there (unless 10K new players come) But as long as no consumption there, the 10k Player will eventually be supplied.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Edited by PotatoMart
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However, the current game content, even with the upcoming update, will not be able to attract masses of players or even keep them in the game for a long time. Those who might be interested in the game are here or have been here playing. 

I can't really think of any reason why players should invest over a year in the game, there is simply no game content that is worth it (long-term game content). 

I think (can also be wrong...) you should do everything to make the current players happy and stay in the game, also you should win back lost players with great, new content, then new players come out of interest, if there are fair catch-up mechanics or integration mechanics. (These have been posted several times as ideas here, including by me).

 

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4 hours ago, blundertwink said:

The concern is that the game won't be polished enough on release to continue development and get to that magical post-release cycle where you have enough players to be stable.

 

This.. very much and it seems this is another point NQ just refuses to acknowledge and seems to continuously try and spin into something else.

What many of us expect NQ to deliver at release is a game at least in the general area of what was pitched during kickstarter and pre-alpha. That clearly is not the case and as it stands a good portion of vital features in that pitch have now either been swept off the table or are being pushed to well beyond "release".

What seems to be going to release is hardly worthy of a "beta" label. We're still, and from what the latest announcmeent shows will remain, knee deep in Aplha territory, if not pre-alpha. There really is no "game", and what DU is right now is pretty much a collection of game mechanics without much, if any, glue to bring it all together.

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A society always builds on the ashes of a previous society. It evolves, by changing rules in the environment. Anything abrupt such as a wipe will not only make everyone start anew, it will disrupt all societies already formed within DU to a cataclysmic extent.

The effect of that will not be pretty. People still playing the game today have invested a lot of time, will likely get demotivated, but more importantly will loose trust: there simply cannot be a technical reason for a wipe, if there was we would understand if told (and it would have been told), hence previous statements in that regards were reassuring. Such people you cannot simply replace by new blood. I'm talking about content creators, programmers, industrialists, group leaders, etc., etc. They are the game. You may think you can recreate their/that content, but most of it was motivated by a history that cannot be recreated ...

In society, you come into the world and that world has a legacy. There are always people that think that is unfair. But in the end there are also always people that just cope with it, and get to the top. I have seen this in all MMOs. People come and go, some whine, some others play, some reach heights, some others keep whining. WoW was like that, Eve was like that ..

You know what? to balance unfair advantages, whether or not from legacy, that is what continues development is about in games like this: through adding new features and mechanics for accumulating wealth, to adjusting rules, and through inflation so that savings deteriorate.

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7 hours ago, Zarcata said:

Just add a second solar system for new players, there they can start from 0 and build their own society.

At a later time, you can then build huge space gates through large community projects to connect these solar systems. Win-win for all.

A system like this is a win win for everyone. 

 

New players get to have that New player experience.  Old players that want that new player experience can go have that new player experience. (NQ gets another sub from the old player).  Old players get to keep their stuff.  It creates an event in the game. 

 

With the way it would work is Heleo's our current solar system, would get a schematic to build a stargateA. The new solar system would also get a schematic to build a stargateA.  Obviously these stargate schematics would cost allot of money. And take a long time to build (giving these new players alonger new player experience). And they would need to be built in PVP space, (so they can be destroyed, and players are each side can decide, na we dont want those players to join our system), They would also need to be fueled to maintain power. 

 

An added NQ advantage to this setup is if at any time the new solar system ever becomes not financially viable, They can always create a supernova event where everyone needs to vacate that solar system And it gets destroyed and lost forever. 

 

Basically it solves allot of problems for everyone, its a win win for everyone.  

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  • Stasis weapons are used to reduce the maximum velocity of targeted ships, a measure towards bringing better balance to PvP. Big armored ships with powerful space engines will no longer have the advantage that allowed them to easily escape more agile smaller designs.

I appreciate you listening to the community on this, it will help bring some much needed complexity to pvp.

  • We are also altering the behavior around a construct’s maximum speed. Constructs’ mass will now impact their speed; the heavier the ship, the less its maximum speed will be. Thus, smaller ships will be able to catch up bigger ones despite the latter having bigger engines than the former.

Barring a truly absurd speed-mass line (like stopping 1kt or heavier ships from exceeding 20kkph) this seems near pointless. Most of the M and L cores I've seen for pvp were effectively fly-weight given the sizes of their cores. The ships it sounded like this was meant to nerf have this bad habit of functionally being 4-10 engines with a fuel tank, a shield, guns, and a control chair, so they tend to be lighter than they stuff they are out-accelerating anyways.

 

Sure, it will help pirates catch haulers out in deep space without needing those haulers to be in a warp-pipe, but it wasn't exactly something they needed help in or that will improve their returns by much. Not being spotted has always been a far more effective way to avoid pirates than hitting top speed.

 

You'd probably solve the issue more effectively (and in a way that brakes science-immersion less) by capping top speed to shield-size.

 

 

On 3/22/2022 at 2:31 AM, Koffye said:

...The benefit of a M-core is a smaller cross-section...

Unfortunately, no, M core constructs do not have a smaller cross-section. There is no minimum size mechanic for cores, hence why people keep seeing M or L cores on their radar when they get attacked, but if they get a good look at their attackers they realize most of 'em would fit on an S core and only have M or L to get at the weapons. Capping shields to core size (without other changes) will just result in M weapons and an L shield on an L core that would fit in to an S space. They probably need to add in a power/heat mechanic if they want to try an bump up cross-sections, using it to get people to put big solar-panels/radiators on a ship's exterior as would be appropriate to handle their giant engines/shields/weapons.

 

 

On 3/21/2022 at 10:30 PM, RugesV said:

But there is max thrust. IE if our engines only exhaust at 30k,  once your going 30k your not going to go any faster...

Amusingly enough, the maximum speed of a thruster's exhaust in real life does not determine that thruster's top speed, only the speed at which it can accelerate. The explosion propelling the thruster is not a fixed point in space, but rather a physical thing with mass that is itself moving while it pushes the associated thruster forward. Its essentially like the "throwing a ball while standing an the bed of a moving truck" thing, except your thrusters are (hopefully) accelerating for longer than just the second it takes someone to throw a ball.

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3 hours ago, PotatoMart said:

- new players can not craft things to make profit from them, because they lack the skills and the prices are partly below production prices anyway (oversupply of items and ores)

This will be true for any new player with no skills regardless of a wipe or not.   There is always a learning curve and barrier to entry into industry in an economy based mmo.  Supply issues are fixes with materials depletion/element degradation and other burn mechanics and quanta sinks, not wiping the entire economy.  

 

3 hours ago, PotatoMart said:

- new players find it difficult to get good ore tiles

- new players have a harder time to get Quanta

- new players can only look for their home away from the markets

 

"Can't get ore tiles."  Sure they can, join my org we got all the tiles they want.  

-ore tiles are already limited and will be continually sought out.  A wipe does nothing to help with this.  I promise if they wipe and start over, my org would end up with better tiles and new players would likely have even less to choose from being that we have had nearly a year to learn these systems and develop strategy.

 

"Harder time earning quanta"?  Nope. 

-large orgs provide better earnings opportunities than a server full of freshly wiped accounts.   Industry creates jobs, which is where new players get paid, so this point is also wrong.

 

 

"New players can't get the best real estate".  This isn't limited to new players, it's part of the game.  

-new players can look for homes wherever they want and tiles become available everyday.   In any game where there is limited real estate, you have to work your way up to end game content of having the best real estate.  Nobody is rolling 20 deep into a full loot PvP zone on day one expecting a W.  End game content takes time. Primo location is end game content, not a given for every player.  If every player deserved a plot next to a market, we would need a thousand markets, wouldn't we? 

 

So as you can see, you have yet to provide one single thing where a new player is excluded from content because of the existence of more advanced players.   If anything, you've proven how beneficial the established orgs are and given plenty of reasons why new players need established orgs just as much as the orgs need new players.  

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If mission income is finally fixed, then the game needs wiped. I'm sure from NQs internal metrics they can see it is the most lucrative activity in the game by a few orders of magnitude. It's created a section of the player base with tens of billions each and the ability to buy out a whole moon solo. To not wipe would essentially create a part of the player base who can completely control the economic side of the game, with no feasible way for others to ever catch up.

 

Even the people who like to pretend they made all their money without missions will "forget" to tell you they often times got investments from friends who got that money from missions.

 

If mission income is not fixed, a wipe is pointless. It all hinges on that.

Edited by Nayropux
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1 hour ago, FerroSC said:

This will be true for any new player with no skills regardless of a wipe or not.   There is always a learning curve and barrier to entry into industry in an economy based mmo.  Supply issues are fixes with materials depletion/element degradation and other burn mechanics and quanta sinks, not wiping the entire economy.  

if You  have  no skills, and the new player has no skills its not regardless.....

 

1 hour ago, FerroSC said:

 

 

"Can't get ore tiles."  Sure they can, join my org we got all the tiles they want.  

-ore tiles are already limited and will be continually sought out.  A wipe does nothing to help with this.  I promise if they wipe and start over, my org would end up with better tiles and new players would likely have even less to choose from being that we have had nearly a year to learn these systems and develop strategy.

how gently from you.

 

your org  has to craft the sanners first, but yes new player are perhaps not so fast, but they can scan too.

1 hour ago, FerroSC said:

 

"Harder time earning quanta"?  Nope. 

-large orgs provide better earnings opportunities than a server full of freshly wiped accounts.   Industry creates jobs, which is where new players get paid, so this point is also wrong.

shure there are some friendly orgs.

1 hour ago, FerroSC said:

 

 

"New players can't get the best real estate".  This isn't limited to new players, it's part of the game.  

-new players can look for homes wherever they want and tiles become available everyday.   In any game where there is limited real estate, you have to work your way up to end game content of having the best real estate.  Nobody is rolling 20 deep into a full loot PvP zone on day one expecting a W.  End game content takes time. Primo location is end game content, not a given for every player.  If every player deserved a plot next to a market, we would need a thousand markets, wouldn't we? 

shure but new player has the chance to  get a market tile if wipe.....

1 hour ago, FerroSC said:

 

So as you can see, you have yet to provide one single thing where a new player is excluded from content because of the existence of more advanced players. 

 

hmm, no sorry :)

 

 

1 hour ago, FerroSC said:

 If anything, you've proven how beneficial the established orgs are and given plenty of reasons why new players need established orgs just as much as the orgs need new players.  

This is  a thing that comes from itselfs, but  normally you want to learn the game for a few days or weeks and then join a guild you prefer.

 

Edited by PotatoMart
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I wouldn't dismiss the issue of tile proximity to a market so simply -- the game will face a permanent wipe if this release doesn't go well, and release won't go well if new players give up!

 

Last time (public beta launch), a lot of people gave up and couldn't even escape the "speeder phase". That was obvious based on market clutter. You can tell them that being near a market is an "end game privilege", but that means DU's FTUE will never be good enough to retain a huge slice of new players. 

 

Their new player experience will be vacuuming rocks, long speeder trips back and forth to the market as they figure out the game, and waiting around for mining units to spit out ore.

 

Yes, some people thrive in a sandbox with little or no direction...but this isn't a niche indie space game, it's an MMO that needs 10s of thousands of subscriptions to remain online. It will not work if new players can't get engaged. 

 

People are focusing on the wipe as if that's the most important thing for this game's health, but I don't see why it's so important (except that existing players obviously don't want to lose their work when they expected to keep it which is fair). 

 

FTUE is the most important thing for this game's health and people have little to say about it.

 

FTUE is what will make or break this game, so I'm very curious to see exactly how this will change with Athena. 

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