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INSIDE NOVAQUARK: DEMETER EDITION - Discussion Thread


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9 hours ago, kulkija said:

 

From miners perspective:

Let's picture out how all would start when Demeter – Territory taxes and auto miners hit the fan. 

 

Day one:

First Taxes are due. You need to have Quanta reserves to pay taxes of all tiles you own. Or else they will be instantly confiscated. 

Then you need to have Quanta reserves to buy Schemas to craft your first mining units. Or need to have Quanta reserves to buy mining units. For that you need to wait for first units to become available at markets. … tick tock tick tock, next date for due taxes is closing.. Prices will be astronomical, because if you are not able to craft your mining units yon NEED to buy them before your property is confiscated. 

Then you need to place our mining units. Before that you may have change to reactivate those tiles which are past due of tax payments. 

Then you just hope that market bots are not removed, and ore prices stay high enough that you can afford the new cost of ownership for tiles. 

So, if you have more than one or two tiles total in universe, do you have enough quanta reserves to keep them before you are able to recreate your mining gameplay? 

 

-- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes --

 

Did you even watch the video? Most of what you said is false.

 

Day one:

First nothing happens. Wallets are created to deposit quanta into for future rent. Players learn how much that rent is going to be, and have plenty of time to react as needed. Nothing is "instantly confiscated".

Day two: 

"next date for due taxes is closing" false.

"property is confiscated" also false.

Day three:

You buy some mining units, and you place your mining units. Congrats. They start generating ore. No reactivation of tiles is necessary, because you haven't gotten anywhere close to that timeframe yet.

Ore prices are predicted to go up, and the market bots haven't been relevant in a long, long time. Probably won't be now, either.

 

 

As for sanctuary, and everywhere else, surface mining is still completely valid. Get surface rocks, use them to make baby mining units, and deploy baby mining units. Profit!

 

Enough with the doom and gloom. 

 

Say YES to Mining Units!

 

Also say YES to Territory taxes, because they're finally going to evict all of the people that quit playing a year ago.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Tional said:

As for sanctuary, and everywhere else, surface mining is still completely valid. Get surface rocks, use them to make baby mining units, and deploy baby mining units. Profit!

 

Enough with the doom and gloom. 

 

Say YES to Mining Units!

 

Also say YES to Territory taxes, because they're finally going to evict all of the people that quit playing a year ago.

 

Underground mining was a massive part of this game and I can understand why they are removing it but still it is a major change.

 

As to the players who stopped playing a year ago. You mean the hundreds of thousands who helped fund this game.

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15 hours ago, Tional said:

Also say YES to Territory taxes, because they're finally going to evict all of the people that quit playing a year ago.

 

The game is going to be very empty after that.

 

There is also a potential RL money problem with NQ removing in-game assets made by the users having a subscription contract that was made before demeter.

 

Another elephant in the room, is what about all the quanta people spent buying territories?

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

 

The game is going to be very empty after that.

 

There is also a potential RL money problem with NQ removing in-game assets made by the users having a subscription contract that was made before demeter.

 

Another elephant in the room, is what about all the quanta people spent buying territories?

 

As you keep the territories that you have claimed I imagine that you lose nothing.

 

As you keep the territories that you have claimed I imagine that you lose nothing.

I think for the conservation of business:
- Anything on your sanctuary tile should almost be kept for life.
- Anything you have in paid territory should be keepable as long as there is sufficient quanta desssu. One of the first actions that should be done by a player who does not want to live on sanctuary is to put 1 or 2 years of payment up front.
- Let's not forget that you can also play within an organization. As long as this is active you can stop the game for a while and not lose any items.

 

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10 hours ago, FryingDoom said:

 

Underground mining was a massive part of this game and I can understand why they are removing it but still it is a major change.

 

As to the players who stopped playing a year ago. You mean the hundreds of thousands who helped fund this game.

 

Sure, and people fear change. I get that. I'm a fan of the changes, your mileage may vary.

 

As for the people who helped fund the game, I'm paying for my two subscriptions, so I'm helping to fund the game. And so many of my friends paid for theirs, so they helped fund the game. Then they all quit when 0.23 came out because it was an unmitigated disaster.

 

The game has gotten better since then, and continues to do so. They won't be back. So their territories should be freed up for others to use. It's really that simple. As for their constructs, and the contents inside them... NQ hasn't made clear how that part's going to work yet. We shall see.

 

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19 hours ago, Tional said:

 

 

 

The game has gotten better since then In my perspective, and continues to do so.

 

Fixed it for you.

For most veterans the game has not gotten any better, features are scrapped and continue to be scrapped. promises are broken and exploids ignored. Indeed there is also good stuff coming in and it depends on when you entered the stage of DU to actually see the game going up Or down. For those with billions from exploids that were never taken away this patch gives them only even more power over those who play it fair as they will never have to worry about taxes and can just wait for nice spots to come free

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I'd really like to be more optimistic about the final stretch to release which I am sure is being pushed, if not rushed, hard internally.

 

My biggest concern is that everything seems to be focussed on saving cost and not on creating the best game possible with what's available. The very limited access to what was "sold" as a massive opportunity for all to test and provide feedback during the latest vlog. Facts are that it's one weekend, announced a day in advance with a single potential further test weekend (mentioned as "if needed"). so much for making an effort to get as much feedback as possible.

 

Meanwhile, you can still sprint and get inside locked buildings/ships as you will get in before the frekkin door spawns in. over the past year not a single time has NQ given any sort of response to this rather major issue in game.

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6 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

 

For most veterans the game has not gotten any better, features are scrapped and continue to be scrapped. promises are broken and exploits ignored. Indeed there is also good stuff coming in and it depends on when you entered the stage of DU to actually see the game going up Or down. For those with billions from exploits that were never taken away this patch gives them only even more power over those who play it fair as they will never have to worry about taxes and can just wait for nice spots to come free

 

Fixed those for you.

 

Sure, I'm not speaking for so-called veterans. I'm speaking for myself, my org, my org-mates, and all of the former org-mates that quit when 0.23 dropped.

 

Since then, they 'fixed' the price of schematics from their horrifically flawed introductory price scheme, then broke them for 2 hours, then fixed them again. They added missions, which devalued currency to almost meaningless, while adding PvP content at the same time. They added asteroids, which provided PvP content for a portion of the server, and provided PvP victims for another portion. And now they're adding automated miners so we can finally stop playing dig-dug, except on asteroids with too-small nodes.

 

The game has gotten better since 0.23, but as I said, my friends won't be back. So I want their stuff. It's really that simple. And I'll be able to get it, if I'm there first.

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1. Current idea of absolute random ore pools and sniping good tiles and not allowing latecomers to get good tiles is just absolute trash. Who though its a good idea? I would like t have a chat with the person from NQ responsible for this stupid idea.
Is it that hard to give similar pools to everyone? Why don't you give for example 1000L of ore on every tile and only randomize the quantity of specific ores.

For example on Alioth every tile have 1000L/h ore and then, every tile have 700L/h of t1, 200L/h of t2 and 100L/h of t3.
And then randomise the quantity of specific ore, 300l bauxit, 200 quartz, 100 hematite, 100 coal ect
So every tile will have similar potential and only the balance of ore mixed.

This is just an example, but making people who already own a tiles to switch for sniped tiles is stupid idea, you can do better than this.
You also shouldn't discriminate newcomers who will be left with leftovers for the rest of theyr life just because you made some stupid ideas.

2. Taxes idea is stupid. Why does every tile need separate wallet? It's just a mini game i don't wanna play. Can't they drain from my main wallet automatically? 
Also amount of tax is ridiculous. You force on players selling stuff or ore just to pay for tile.
Every developer decision that force something on any player is fundamentally a bad decision.
We came here to have fun and not to be forced to play the game in order to pay some stupid taxes.

3. If you plan to change the way air brakes works, you have to boost them a lot.
Every ship i own which was designed by other voxelmancer, does not have a place for additional airbrake outside.
If this game is about voxels and attracting new players with nice looking ships, how the hell stacking 500 bad looking elements is going to help us building nice ship? There is already tooooooooooo many stupid elements that have to be outside and we end up making 1000 holes on outer layer of ship to make elements work.
Retro brakes/air brakes/wings or any air lift elements should work despite being covered with voxels if you don't want to limit our creativity.
It would be ok if you would allow us to modify dimensions and shape of elements so we can make an actual good looking elements on ship instead of ugly acne on ships.
Why there are always such a bad decisions coming from Nq?

Are you guys doing such a bad decisions on purpose so the player-base focus on those issues instead of slow progress of development?

I'm very grateful that you finally decided to add auto-miners, but considering the trust you lost on player base, the main reason behind miners is infrastructure cost and not the players opinion or respect of our time.
 

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I am not happy with taxes, but can live with paying it BUT it must be a fairly low rate.  1 million is Way too much.  If the goal is to remove unplayed tiles from game then it does not have to be outrageously expensive tax to accomplish this.  The tax should be set at a rate that by just logging into game regularly will give you the money to pay for a couple tiles.   High tax rates are just going to piss off more players, because now you are not letting them play the part of the game they enjoy but now MUST do things they do not enjoy to try and fund the tax.  It is at this point the game starts becoming a job and not fun.  

I agree with Draqlolus in that making people move their bases to new locations to get ore is a bit crazy.  I will only be able to afford maybe one tile so what happens if the tile my base is currently located on has low ore or poor quality ore,  

Is sanctuary going to be tax free?  If so i will just move everything back to my tile there so i can continue playing the game in the manner that i enjoy instead of feeling i am taking on a second job.

 

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7 hours ago, kulkija said:

Are you sure that tiles which become free is any loot?

 

- Call To Action – Say NO to territory taxes - 

 

When you claim tiles on PTS that have constructs owned by -others-, it starts a 2 week timer. At the end of which you can 'reclaim' those constructs as your own.

 

Tested and confirmed, but as 2 weeks haven't passed we can't confirm that part.

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12 hours ago, Tional said:

 

Fixed those for you.

 

Sure, I'm not speaking for so-called veterans. I'm speaking for myself, my org, my org-mates, and all of the former org-mates that quit when 0.23 dropped.

 

Since then, they 'fixed' the price of schematics from their horrifically flawed introductory price scheme, then broke them for 2 hours, then fixed them again. They added missions, which devalued currency to almost meaningless, while adding PvP content at the same time. They added asteroids, which provided PvP content for a portion of the server, and provided PvP victims for another portion. And now they're adding automated miners so we can finally stop playing dig-dug, except on asteroids with too-small nodes.

 

The game has gotten better since 0.23, but as I said, my friends won't be back. So I want their stuff. It's really that simple. And I'll be able to get it, if I'm there first.

Thanks for the fix ;) yeah those we have lost probably wont come back but sadly we loose more every update

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4 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

Thanks for the fix ;) yeah those we have lost probably wont come back but sadly we loose more every update

True.

I live next tile at Market 15. Before r0.23 it had life. Ships coming and going 24/7 and players in the near tiles doing their things regularly.

After that killer patch, area is empty and I see ship or two in a week.

We had a small corporation/community of 10+ players. Now there is 3 of us left.

After Demeter, will DU survive. Probably not

- Call To Action – Say NO to territory taxes -

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13 hours ago, Tional said:

The game has gotten better since 0.23, but as I said, my friends won't be back. So I want their stuff. It's really that simple. And I'll be able to get it, if I'm there first.

Congratulations, that's how vultures think.
If their "friends" had stopped coming back and wanted them to have everything, it would be easy for real friends to hand these things over to them.
Many players understandably stop here in alpha/beta and just wait to see if the game will develop for the better, then maybe come back. So they have no right to these areas or the things on them!

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Hey there, here's my humble opinion on the upcoming Demeter patch.

 

I'm a fan of constructive feedback, and I don't say the following lightly. While I really respect each and every staff member of NQ, and their efforts of bearing the brunt on a daily base, and while there are also things I am really looking forward with the upcoming patch (and while some in here will even disagree with my personal opinion) ... I am not in principle against changes (on the contrary). But I am, like many others, very concerned for the future of DU - and that even before the official release. To say this as respectful as possible in regards to all your hard work at NQ: the upcoming changes are a sign of destruction, and DU may disappear into oblivion in early 2022.

 

(1) The terrain reset is necessary, yes. And I assume the majority of the player base is absolutely okay with that, considering the issues we've experienced since Beta start. Nobody cares, if they have to dig out their stuff again - it might be a great opportunity to redo some stuff around bases, that people were not really happy about in the first place. Same with those changes on how brakes work. Personally, I like the way they work on PTS now.

 

(2) The voxel changes are fine too. Technology is changing and evolving, so does the voxel tech. What I'm concerned of are the complexity limitations. While technical issues need to be prevented in the first place, I fear many detailed designs will no longer feasible in near future. DU will no longer be the game where everything is possible, and the own creativity is the limit - instead it will be the game where everything is possible within those complexity limitations. Please, don't cut the rope too short there.

 

(3) And now, let me point out my concerns for mining changes, scan results, and territory taxation: This could kill many huge community projects within the first one or two months. And while projects like the Alioth Spaceport by Infinity Corporation, Shamsie's Bazaar, and Obsidian Racing may be safe for now, many others will just disappear. Smaller groups or ambitious solo content creators won't be able to grind for millions and millions of quanta without spending the time of a full-time job each day, seven days a week, just to earn enough money from missions to pay their taxes on tiles they need for their project.

 

And if that's not enough, you would split the community even more by keeping existing scan results valuable. Both new and casual players won't be able to acquire enough resources by mining, and huge organisations with fully scanned planetary bodies are going to take each and every valuable tile for mining without any efforts and/or competition (within days, or even hours), because they already have containers full of planet-wide scan results.

 

I like the idea of having two different kinds of territory units, some people have already mentioned in other threads (e.g. in Hagbard's feedback thread): those, we already got - to just build and terraform. And mining territory units, with tax rates of those you plan to implement in Demeter. Plus, I'd prefer a full reset of all scan results - and I may not be alone with that wish.

 

Conclusion

The way you are going to implement all those changes +  territory taxation, many players will leave before Christmas (déjá vu), and many projects (race tracks, community projects, and other ambitious projects) will just disappear before the game has even been released. The players' base will shrink, and even PvP will suffer from those changes. To be precise, you break the neck of many content creators, that create amazing stuff for you and for all (existing + future) players. And when that happens, Dual Universe as we know and love it - a game that I, like many others, have waited for a long time, that I've followed since the first Facebook ad that NQ-Nomad has dropped, and that many of us value for the freedom of creativity and the great community within - will vanish.

 

Please, NQ, I ask you from the bottom of my heart, and even as an early backer of Dual Universe: overthink those changes you are planning to implement with the upcoming Demeter patch. I don't want our all concerns become a nightmare before Christmas (no pun intended!). We don't want a "Eve Online" 2.0 economic simulation - we want to play Dual Universe, a "continuous single-shard sandbox MMORPG taking place in a vast fully editable Sci-Fi universe".

 

Do not let those changes be Hades, do not let DU become Persephone ...

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EvE Online started this path after koreans bought it, slowly making new players road more harder and harder. Now that game is forcing everyone to join largest alliances to be able to do anything except free to play alpha clone stuff (which started after ownership chance too).

This is the same thing and this is happening before game is even released.

And with these updates DU will be soon free to play game too selling in-game purchases.

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On 10/29/2021 at 11:08 PM, Tional said:

The game has gotten better since 0.23, but as I said, my friends won't be back. So I want their stuff. It's really that simple. And I'll be able to get it, if I'm there first.

 

So my friends gave me their right to their property when they quit and wanted to see if the gameplay improved. I take care of it if they come back unless they tell me explicitly that I can take their stuff, that's what friends do.

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5 hours ago, DontPanic said:

 

So my friends gave me their right to their property when they quit and wanted to see if the gameplay improved. I take care of it if they come back unless they tell me explicitly that I can take their stuff, that's what friends do.

 

Yes, that's a different scenario. They explicitly gave you rights to their property. 

 

My friends just quit. Didn't pass on rights, didn't ask me to take care of their stuff, they just quit. A couple of them gave weak excuses, the rest didn't even do that.

 

So we took most of their stuff that we could at the time, that we had access to, and when their territory rights expire, we'll take the rest.

 

I'm glad that we can finally clean up all of these old hexes. Along with tearing down as many of those F'in space needles as possible. There will be a party on Alioth for sure when those come down.

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