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DevBlog: Element Destruction - DUscussion thread


NQ-Naerais
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In the movies I have seen.. and want to relive, you can always repair things... unless the entire ship is destroyed somehow?? [Maybe 100% of elements damaged?] I was wondering, why not allow the repairs to keep being possible forever, but each repairs takes down 5% or more of the total spec of the element? until perhaps a base line of 25% minimum which pretty much means you have to replace them, but it might allow you to limp home?

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17 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

You are missing the point. Sometimes loot is gonna get destroyed. We deal with that on the daily in eve. Any hauler who does this is taking on severe risk, for almost 0 gain (some arbitrary last laugh). Yea so the hauler losses 50mil in loot but they are laughing....ok ya in what world does that even make sense? And If pvpers wanna use it great, more pvp action, I'll still get some loot, and ill roll on them. You are making up problems that dont exist.

Ok let me give you another scenario then. So you can fathom why it's bad, you are very closed minded my friend.

 

Say I want to move my base to a distant planet. I decide to use the 1 life container meta to get to across space. So even If get shot and die,  the other opposing player that used resources and ammo for that haul won't get anything? I don't think so pal. Let's just wait to see how NQ will react to this in the upcoming PvP RoundTable. We are just plebs.

 

Again you have no real counter-argument here. :)

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In PVP, fine on the damage/destruction, though i'm not anywhere near getting into PVP in this game yet.  However, for PVE, I would strongly suggest that the UI/UX is considerably improved from its current state before implementing permanent crash damage.

 

Currently, I am at a stage of flying a hauler ship around Alioth and have travelled in space to mine elsewhere.  I have a warp drive and just setup a factory to churn out a reasonable number of warp cells.  Not an early-backer, just subscribed a few weeks ago.  So, the issues that I have centre on having little to no idea of the capabilities of a ship as it is built.  The beta currently has a build guide to whether there is or is not a problem with atmospheric or space flight but there is very little guidance on, for example, how much cargo mass a ship can handle.  I have crashed the ship a number of times, usually when it the L container is full (eg 500-650t).  I have happily gone to nearby planets and moons and managed to take off due to steady atmospheric flight or low gravity and then plummeted through the surface of Alioth (as many of us would have done).

 

So, my current approach in this game (very different from Eve and other games) is to experiment with ship builds and to try to gather minerals and expand factories.  If PvE/crash damage is implemented without a better UI, it would heavily impact my gameplay and I would likely spend a lot more time elsewhere (Space Engineers and Eve) until there is a better balance that allows me to build things and be confident about their characteristics before taking off rather than once I am rushing back with scrap to repair each smoking wreckage.  Please consider improving the build info/experience before implementing PVE/crash damage.

 

That said, I really like DU and think it has a huge amount of potential to grow.

 

 

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9 hours ago, TheFlyingCat said:

Will the size restriction remain indefinetly? Dont get me wrong i think its a good change for now, but as soon as we have energy management restricting weapons by core size become obsolete as your energy output dictates how many weapons you can add to a craft. So if every size of ship can only use its own size there is no real variation in ship spezialisation. As you cant for instance build small glasscannons or smth like that-

 

9 hours ago, Samlow said:

Exactly my thought. So Im hoping its a stopgap.

These should stagger imho;

 

if you have an L ship with M sized elements, you have those elements working harder and burn out quicker.

if you have an M ship with L sized elements, the other connected elements wear out quicker.

Now if we only had fuel-line connectors, fuel tank to engine, then the above example would have engines being flooded with too much fuel and increases chance of explosion, burst fuel lines, etc. Then you would also have spluttering and not enough fuel feeding an engine resulting in loss of thrust.

"I cannot change the laws of physics, Captain! A've got to have thirty minutes."

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1 hour ago, ShibbyGuy said:

Ok let me give you another scenario then. So you can fathom why it's bad, you are very closed minded my friend.

 

Say I want to move my base to a distant planet. I decide to use the 1 life container meta to get to across space. So even If get shot and die,  the other opposing player that used resources and ammo for that haul won't get anything? I don't think so pal. Let's just wait to see how NQ will react to this in the upcoming PvP RoundTable. We are just plebs.

 

Again you have no real counter-argument here. :)

Ya thats totally fine.  You aren't entitled to someones loot.  But you still give them a huge loss. Losses like what you described cant happen on some day to day basis.  So thats what we call an outlier.  You dont base gameplay on outliers.

 

Its also pretty obvious you haven't done any pvp either, to think that you need to destroy every element on a ship to kill and claim the ship.

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12 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

Naunet running by with a quick edit for clarity: Element Destruction will be applied to all damages sustained, both in and outside of PvP battles.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you haven't seen the news, you can do so here:  

 



Discuss below!

 

 

 

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.6daf0b97f6bce85f12aa36fe90026fcb.png

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I dont play PVP but suggesting linking cross section to radar time ... seems that you guys won't learn.People played cubes because they were the way to fill all the space restricted by an XS core , now the lowest cross section ship for a given volumen is a sphere that would probably turn into........ a cube for simplicity.Link radar times to functional element weight with some easy scoring system like weapons x2/x3 or whatever before you remake it into power scoring and forget core sizes and you will remove one source of cubbiness.

 

I like the rest of changes they are a start.

 

For the destruction on elements I would prefer reduced effectiveness any time  damage is taken based of the % damage they take. For containers increase their base weight or make part of the items to dissapear or get permanently damaged to be turned later into... scrap. There are a lot of better ways.

 

I like the addition of more industry based content, it's quite limited right now.

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5 hours ago, SpaceGamer said:

Sounds great...cant wait as elements should NEVER have lasted forever to begin with. I DO understand that it was to assist with testing purposes and had it's place for a time. Time for removal of the crutches, and a fix to the bug for fast AGG is overdue. People have come to depend on these things, just like getting TP to ships, Ships reset, ect for too long. Time to begin moving to the status that the game is intended to have at release. 

I agree with the general message however adding more boring chores like digging up to return to the ship add nothing to the gameplay just the most boring part of mining (like the rest is fun) that you can solve with a macro.

 

 

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i think instead of element become destroyed just being deleted why not make it into salvage instead. basically when you would have a  large atmo break beyond repair and you replace it with a new part or remove it ,it would give you a few salvage piles . you could have a few different types of piles and different tiers of piles. from their you can then place these piles in a recycler and convert them into base resources  like iron and carbon.  you could have talents that help with speed and how much you get from each pile. mind you would not get back 100% of the mats but something is better than nothing. this could have people who spec into this and basically become recyclers . they could sell the piles on the market if they do not want to spend the time or talent points on it. 

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Good start but the big one to me is total destruction of elements. While i agree we need an actual resource sink in the game i dont think the elements should be deleted. I think they should instead either give scrap parts that can be recycled for a percentage of the raw resources say 50% with talents or that they should be used to craft refurbished engines that have a RANDOM negitive over a new version. I.E less lifes requireing more repairs, higher fuel consumption ect. This will put say cheap T 0.75 engines on the market for those wanting to save a buck. But also give a reason for there to be scrappers and used parts markets opening up more game choices.

 

Additionally i would like to see replacment parts kits that allow you to add onto element life Maybe you get 3 lives normally and can boost or restore it 3 times after that with the parts kits while having talents boosting that more. It can still be a heavy resource sink, maybe more then even just replaceing the engines. Imo it opens up another market and people who properly maintain their ships should be rewarded over those who dont.

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Suggestion regarding additional resource sinks. Add “Babel Engines” - this is what creates the “Bubble” of pvp safe zone. The first one created from the Novark.

 

Allow players to feed parts to the Engine: Hydraulics, Quantum Cores, Frames, etc.. at certain points of resources “fed” the bubble expands outward. Once it reaches the border of another planet, a Babel Engine can be constructed upon it.

 

During the period of initial construction, players have to “feed” the engine to get it “online”. During the period there is no bubble, players can be attacked while “feeding”. Progress cannot be reversed, only prevented and slowed.

 

Once the resources are “fed”, the Engine goes Online and generates a PvP prevention field around the planet, and it can be fed to extend into space — and eventually it will push up on another planet and another engine can be built.

 

This adds:

 

1. A resource sink along with element destruction.

 

2. An analogue to Eve’s High/Low/Null Sec space, providing a dynamic balance between PvE and PvP, with a pure PvE resource sink/collective goal.

 

3. A natural system incentivizing PvP. The “Settler” (PvE) players claiming territory and pushing out the frontiers, creating safe places to build their cities and civilization.
 

To do so, however, they have to fly to Babel Engines on planets outside of the safe zone, like Smugglers, with ships loaded with valuable parts for PvP “Pirate Players” to descend on.

 

It adds a framework of rival goals that push players into conflict and create emergent gameplay (alliances of “Settlers” launching a massive fleet to feed the engine on Planet A while a small fleet baits the Pirates into thinking they are going to Planet B; PvP mercenaries based in the High Security Core launching raids on PvP Org bases while Settlers feed an unfinished engine; Pirate Orgs forming alliances and competing to take territory close to an unfinished Engine).

 

4. Since progress cannot be reversed, eventually the borders will expand, which it will have to as the “core civilized” territories become mined out and hexes bought up, creating an ever creeping, bountiful and lawless frontier where hardened pirate alliances can mine virgin resources,  it always live on their heels as civilization comes to more and more systems.

 

Allowing a simple system to create a constantly evolving universe/story that responds to player actions while driving conflict with incentives for both types of player, all while creating a natural story of colonization.

 

Allow totaled elements to be scrapped (talent tree) for some of their components to make it less brutal on PvE players crashing, allow PvP players to make some profits off of destroyed ships, and balance it out through the demand/sink to “feed the engines”.

 

Alternatively, instead of the Bubble, it could add NPC “Security Drones” that attack aggressors, which respond quicker and in greater force the closer they are to an Engine, again, much like Eve.

 

This could lead to a knowledge economy of what regions are highly developed in security (some planets might have strong engines and some weak, asymmetrically across the universe), a layer of “factional/gameplay preference” strategy and creation of trade corridors between the resource depleted core worlds and the dangerous frontiers.

 

Possibly even allow “raids” on “Drone Factories” (space stations) on the perimeters that could temporarily reduce or disable defenses, allowing a push to temporarily disable Engines and allow for raids on planets for a time — creating a risk/reward for being on the fringes of civilization vrs the deeper core.

 

 

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Kudos for fast fixing many bugs in game, cap down for dealing with exploits but... yes there is a but... alltho the upcoming changes are also a good from my perspective my dear devs you forgot 1 thing that is giving us hell and im not talking only about my issue then from every single person i know in this game and do believe me i know allot of people and we all share the same exact issue and that is RENDERING. Now some of us even in my group own computers that are close to freaking NASA and yet for some reason still mountains do not render, thos towers players built around markets do not render in time and so on and so on... now some of us are more active then other perhaps i play this game 16h per day like for months now without stopping - what can i say im addicted and DU is my drug, but just think of it how many times per day i smash into a mountain that is not there and how many towers i kiss per day coz they do not render until its too late. If you would consider working a bit on rendering that would be just peachy before you put this element destruction thing going, just a suggestion not a hate mail, keep up the good work :) Cya around.

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13 hours ago, Ater Omen said:

Will we have a lua function to know the restoration counter? I don't see people checking every elements one by one.

Could have the new “replace destroyed element” tool show the status by color code.

 
3: Green.

2: Yellow.

1: Orange.

Totaled: Red.

 

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Данная концепция с блоками уничтожет пиратсво. Не будет смысла атаковать корабли ради их деталей.

1. Предлагаю возможность разбирать блоки на ресурсы.

2. Ремонтной станции добавить возможность чинить блоки полностью с восстановлением счётчика поломок

3. Ремонтировать блоки используя детали для полного восстановления

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I like a lot the direction of those changes !

 

1). I like the idea of parts wearing out. It is much needed and will boost the economy. 

 -  I hope this will apply not only to PvP

 - I'm afraid that splitting amount of repair into 2 - 5 repairs no matter how much damage has the part may result in people flying with smoking parts trying to delay the repair moment. maybe some durability system would work better. With each crash part loses some durability points and the amount of lost points is results form the amount of damage. Part that has 100 HP has 300 Durability points and when the durability points hits 0 it can not pe repaitred anymore.

 

2). I like the fact That s / xs  cores will no longer be the only sensible option in PvP. 

 - Now I wonder what would be the point to use any other than L/M cores in PvP. Will s/xs have any adventages over the bigger cores?

 

3). I'm very happy that I no longer will be forced to build Cube shaped Combat ships as the only resonable option.

 

4). I feel that Medium and even small radars may finally be useful when using with lo range weapons.

 

Question 1:

If the ship size matters now and players will still be able to build small ships with Large weapons (they will simply have to do it on bigger cores). Will XS - M Weapons have any reason? Are they better in anything. I Mean - at the moment L size weapon with Defence Ammo and lvl 3 Agility handling skill hits XS cores in the move with no trouble.

 

Question 2:

 

Lasers and cannons has bug that causes the honeycomb is not destroyed by them as well as it should according to damage (which means it stays almos intouched) and they are used only to destroy enemies weapons. Do you know about this bug? Do you plan to fix it?

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I agree with others, we need renewable resources before a resource sink comes into play. Resources going out without new resources coming in is a terrible recipe and will make the game unattractive at this time. I'd probably cancel my sub and go play something else until renewables are implemented.

 

Aside from that, the roadmap is starting to look more and more like Eve. If I wanted to play Eve, I'd be playing it.

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34 minutes ago, NoRezervationz said:

I agree with others, we need renewable resources before a resource sink comes into play. Resources going out without new resources coming in is a terrible recipe and will make the game unattractive at this time. I'd probably cancel my sub and go play something else until renewables are implemented.

You totaly blowing it out of scale. This sink from element destruction will be barely noticeble at this point. Most of elements are very cheap in comparison to assets people already hoarded. Generaly, its even good thing, if NQ keep some reasonable gap between this and imprementation of per example asteroid mining (renewables), so at least fraction of exessive stuff will be drained out of economy.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

You totaly blowing it out of scale. This sink from element destruction will be barely noticeble at this point. Most of elements are very cheap in comparison to assets people already hoarded. Generaly, its even good thing, if NQ keep some reasonable gap between this and imprementation of per example asteroid mining (renewables), so at least fraction of exessive stuff will be drained out of economy.

No I'm not blowing it out of proportion. Learning to fly, people crash, or at least I did several times. If this were implemented, my stuff would've been destroyed and would've been forced to buy new stuff with extremely limited money. This will hurt new players coming into the game since destruction happens from a simple crash. It's going to discourage new players and they won't stick around.

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2 minutes ago, NoRezervationz said:

No I'm not blowing it out of proportion. Learning to fly, people crash, or at least I did several times. If this were implemented, my stuff would've been destroyed and would've been forced to buy new stuff with extremely limited money. This will hurt new players coming into the game since destruction happens from a simple crash. It's going to discourage new players and they won't stick around.

1) You need to crush your stuff several times before its totaly "die".

2) Most of learning happens (for most reasonable people) on pretty basic, cheap ships.

3) You have your everyday 100 k of social security just for this.

4) If you need more -- earn it by in-game activities. Or craft new stuff yourself. What the problem?

5) You already have all renewables newbies may need for bare basics -- rocks on ground.

6) And I fail do undestand logic of your argument -- how some distant (and pvp-ridden) renewable asteroids will help newbie who, by your concept, cant fly without constant crushing? 

 

So, generaly you totaly blowing it out of proportion and stretching problem. I doubt it will be even minor issue for most new players.

 

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