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Game Economy Will Crash From Taxes


J-Rod
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but after the taxes start, there will be much more money leaving the in game economy than entering it.

 

Right now the only way money enters the DU economy is through market missions and the 150k login bonus every day. There are no longer bots buying low tier ore.

 

Money leaves the economy through schematic sales and taxes. This will greatly outpace the money entering the system causing economic collapse.

 

I can't see how the economy will survive unless we all start doing missions to inject more money into the economy or bots start buying low tier ore again.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

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15 minutes ago, J-Rod said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but after the taxes start, there will be much more money leaving the in game economy than entering it.

 

Right now the only way money enters the DU economy is through market missions and the 150k login bonus every day. There are no longer bots buying low tier ore.

 

Money leaves the economy through schematic sales and taxes. This will greatly outpace the money entering the system causing economic collapse.

 

I can't see how the economy will survive unless we all start doing missions to inject more money into the economy or bots start buying low tier ore again.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

 

I think your concerns are right.

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The way I see it is this update kills atmo parts entirely since you only need agg with max container range and dont even really need wings, stabilizers, etc to do anything so in a sense they basically kill the whole parts tree off except for new players or anyone who does not have elevators, towers, etc.

 

Then on top of it the only thing that will really deflate will likely be T1 mats. You will likely have to sell off much of what you make per month to cover the taxes of mining which will have even less yields per month for those who arent sitting on trillions in quanta or mats. So T1 ore will likely be cheap unless mega orgs decide to siege the market and not sell ore/parts to stave out the competition in which they can then just wait them out and after the tiles default they can come and collect all your stuff.

 

Asteroid mining will be the only game in town and after the people with PvP scripts end up taking peoples ships outside the bubble trying to make up the ore difference dont want to do that anymore because they are losing hundreds of millions or its too laggy to mine in huge groups or that suddenly there are no asteroids inside the bubble after saterday people will be wasting huge sums of space gas which will tripple the cost.

 

Or doing missions which will further eat up the gas as orgs are now forced to do mass haulers to do mission runs just to pay taxes will also eat up huge amounts of space gas.

 

Seeing as you will likely need to do multiple 7 tile clusters to just make space gas in sufficient enough quantity at a rate much less than you are used to the market could hit a point where you can even make enough or buy enough at the rate its being burned off to actually do anything.

 

Throw in blockades for people trying to scoop up tiles on Jango or any of the other planets and blowing up ships left and right and the potential of mega orgs intentionally sieging the market and keeping parts and gas to themselves and you have a real recipe of disaster when many cant keep losing hundreds of millions and default on their taxes.

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19 minutes ago, J-Rod said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but after the taxes start, there will be much more money leaving the in game economy than entering it.

I think not.

I suspect that ~25 tiles is the optimal amount of tiles for a single account, that's 25M, you do 3-4 long range missions and you can cover that. Especially on the weekends you can do that semi afk for the most part. When you have a lot of corp mates and/or accounts, missioning scales up pretty darned good! Currently there is coming in way more then is getting out. As most folks doing that have already bought pretty much every blueprint they'll ever need.

 

Also keep in mind that folks doing a lot of missioning don't really need to also do the automining thing, they just buy all the ore they need. No automining, no real need for owning more tiles, no meganodes to secure, no tiles needed there either. So only tiles needed for bases, manufacturing, sales, and logistics. I also suspect that most folks not on the automining craze will just have their starter tile and maybe one 'base' tile. Their daily login will cover that. And chances are that the new meta will be space bases with elevators to flattened unclaimed tiles below. Folks in a corp sharing a single tile, etc.

 

I do think that it will slow down inflation (quite) a bit, but not cause a deflation, unless other game mechanics are changed as well.

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46 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

I think not.

I suspect that ~25 tiles is the optimal amount of tiles for a single account, that's 25M, you do 3-4 long range missions and you can cover that. Especially on the weekends you can do that semi afk for the most part.

Where is the fun? This sounds a lot like a repetitive and boring RL job that you have to do, or else..

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26 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

Where is the fun? This sounds a lot like a repetitive and boring RL job that you have to do, or else..

 

Yes

 

I have real life and real Job

I work hard.

After workday I'm usually very tired.

I don't need a second job in video-game.

I want to relax and chill.

DU has been that place where I can relax after a hard day. Without any stress or obligations.

That is my play-style

Why can't I have it here anymore?

 

- Call To Action – Say NO to territory taxes -

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, J-Rod said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but after the taxes start, there will be much more money leaving the in game economy than entering it.

 

Right now the only way money enters the DU economy is through market missions and the 150k login bonus every day. There are no longer bots buying low tier ore.

 

Money leaves the economy through schematic sales and taxes. This will greatly outpace the money entering the system causing economic collapse.

 

I can't see how the economy will survive unless we all start doing missions to inject more money into the economy or bots start buying low tier ore again.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

You are incorrect. There will still be an inflation because the alt runners can easily make a billion a day. However the wealth divide between players and play styles will widen far further than it even is now. This will not be sustainable and another section of the player base will join the pvpers in vanishing from the game slowly but surely. 

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10 minutes ago, Physics said:

You are incorrect. There will still be an inflation because the alt runners can easily make a billion a day. However the wealth divide between players and play styles will widen far further than it even is now. This will not be sustainable and another section of the player base will join the pvpers in vanishing from the game slowly but surely. 

The number of people mission running with alt accounts will still never provide enough money coming into the game economy to compensate for the money going out from taxes.

 

The amount of money being brought into the economy by a small number of mission runners will always be much smaller than the amount of money going out of the economy from taxing almost every person in the game millions per month.

 

The majority of people I know that play the game refuse to run missions as do I. We either all have to start mission running to save economy or something else has to happen.

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30 minutes ago, J-Rod said:

The number of people mission running with alt accounts will still never provide enough money coming into the game economy to compensate for the money going out from taxes.

 

The amount of money being brought into the economy by a small number of mission runners will always be much smaller than the amount of money going out of the economy from taxing almost every person in the game millions per month.

 

The majority of people I know that play the game refuse to run missions as do I. We either all have to start mission running to save economy or something else has to happen.

Again, if people don’t want too run missions they will not. People will cut back on territories to lower costs, persevere through to continue doing what they enjoy or get fed up and disappear. Others will just let them run down to abandonment.
 

You make it sound like 1 mil per week will collapse the economy when people have been spending cash on schematics over the last year costing 100’s millions per shopping trip.
 

As many mega factories have most schematics needed now there is lots of spare change so people who focus on industry and markets etc this will not hurt at all. 
 

The player base who has had no desire to make big money or play the economy and just wanted to mine for themselves to build what they wanted along with the casual players are the ones in danger here. The patch runs a big risk for them to join the pvp community in the DU history books. 

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12 hours ago, J-Rod said:

Right now the only way money enters the DU economy is through market missions and the 150k login bonus every day.

The creation of wealth without producing wealth is stealing! You are stealing from people that produced! In real-life, we call that rent-seeking! The central bank eases by loaning the money or by purchasing securities. It's not equitable to print money and just hand it out to selected people, only for them to spend it on people that actually produced. If this is real-life, this mission system and daily login reward are pure rent-seeking!  

 

The system is just inequitable and corrupt!

 

They are going to release this game without wiping it out. Talent points is persistent, grants is persistent, even resource accumulation is persistent as they do not decay. Do you think the status quo will ever change? It's an oligarchic game! The developer is rich so what do you expect? He probably believes in this saying:

 

Bill-Gates-NOW.png

 

Bull sh*t! Use your common-sense! How are they ever going to catch up on a game that is persistent? (and persistently rent-seeking?) Do you know how real-life works as well? Real-life is dynamic but they rent-seek to stay in power! This saying is an excuse to convince the poor not to demand their government to do something about the inequality when they are the constituents!

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The mission system is rent-seeking as well because you didn't introduced any value to the market but generated cash for you to spend on the market (where you offered nothing to)! That is stealing!

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On 11/1/2021 at 1:16 AM, J-Rod said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but after the taxes start, there will be much more money leaving the in game economy than entering it.

 

Right now the only way money enters the DU economy is through market missions and the 150k login bonus every day. There are no longer bots buying low tier ore.

 

Money leaves the economy through schematic sales and taxes. This will greatly outpace the money entering the system causing economic collapse.

 

I can't see how the economy will survive unless we all start doing missions to inject more money into the economy or bots start buying low tier ore again.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

Have you tried PTS? Have you tried calculating mining income on a tile? Which even in t1 ore is already + -20 million quanta per day, with a tile price of 4 million per month, what kind of collapse of the economy are you talking about?
 

Knowing the restrictions on autominers, you will have on average 10-20 tiles, for which you will have to pay 20 * 4 = 80 million per month, and the income, provided that you extract the cheapest ore t1, will be 20kk * 30 = 600,000,000 at a cost in 80,000,000 .. The numbers are rounded and depend on many cell factors, but the very fact of what kind of collapse of the economy you are trying to convey here, before you do something - check it yourself and test it. So, this is only ore and only t1. There are many sources of income in the game if you include your head, so what kind of collapse are you trying to talk about here? And to feed this to those like you who did not bother to check and count corny, and causing them the same massive panic. Before affirming or declaring something like that, lay out the calculated version, at least from your point of view, what would be where to look, otherwise these are empty premises not based on nothing.

And don't forget, people who carry missions. they carry missions of other players, who also receive 50% .. which is very often equal to 3-5 million in 5 minutes, a simple visit to VR - which makes it possible for a player to pay for 1 tile for a month in advance for 1 transportation. If you have 4-5 carriers and you even have 1 character, and carriers carry missions at least 2 times a week, you will receive about 50 million per week only on missions alone (not transporting them), which will already allow you to pay for 10+ tiles without doing almost anything.

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Also, you can bet that next up is the removal of bots buying T1 ore as IF those calculations are correct, the bots woudl pretty much eat all the ore and people building will just farm with autominers outsid eof the market entirely. So yes, the game economy will crash regardless. 

 

Not that markets are al lthat functional to begin with.. most who are stil lin game just keep everything in house and havetheir own in org economy, they do not need to use markets even but to maybe dump their surplus.

Also, maintinaing efficiency on a 20 tile farm wil be a dayjob, something amny here do not hae time or desire for. This is a game, not a job, or at least it should be.

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55 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

Also, maintinaing efficiency on a 20 tile farm wil be a dayjob, something amny here do not hae time or desire for. This is a game, not a job, or at least it should be.

This so much. NQ has never been able to give us something that makes it possible to "find the fun" in DU.

Their solutions be it the old mining system, flying missions etc. and presumably the new auto mining all end up feeling more like doing chores then playing a game.

 

The only fun thing left (after they killed industry) in this game for non PVP'ers is building, and for some reason NQ keeps coming up with new plans to prevent us from doing that also.

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3 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

This so much. NQ has never been able to give us something that makes it possible to "find the fun" in DU.

Their solutions be it the old mining system, flying missions etc. and presumably the new auto mining all end up feeling more like doing chores then playing a game.

 

The only fun thing left (after they killed industry) in this game for non PVP'ers is building, and for some reason NQ keeps coming up with new plans to prevent us from doing that also.

I don't think they really killed industry did they?  It was set up from day one on a path which would lead it to being owned by a small number of megafactories, schematics just got it there faster by putting barriers-to-entry in the way of the smaller industrialists which megafactory owners could overcome more easily.  But even the pre-0.23 game would also have ended up with an overstocked market priced so you need all-5 talents to make a small profit.

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2 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

But even the pre-0.23 game would also have ended up with an overstocked market priced so you need all-5 talents to make a small profit.

But it was at least possible to build and run large factories just for fun - to optimize it for maximum efficiency, speed or flexibility and than to see everything running as planned. NQ killed that kind of gameplay because it doesn't fit to a vision of their game that will never become reality.

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47 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

But it was at least possible to build and run large factories just for fun - to optimize it for maximum efficiency, speed or flexibility and than to see everything running as planned. NQ killed that kind of gameplay because it doesn't fit to a vision of their game that will never become reality.

 

Really an important point. Building factories was fun. They could have balanced the mechanic without making the engaging aspects so tedious, but they never listened to their players telling them "hey, this is fun, please don't nerf this entirely". Instead of adding depth to create balance, they removed depth. 

 

Personally, I also liked the exploration required to seek out nodes -- even though I wasn't a fan of the mining mechanic itself (they didn't have to bury ore so deep...no one forced them to do that).

 

It wasn't the best sense of adventure and discovery, but it gave me something to use my ship for...since I find combat in DU really dull, clunky, and poorly balanced. If I want a real PvP experience I play a competitive PvP game built by people with a much better sense of game design. DU isn't that, not yet. 

 

With Demeter, my ship is a train to move shit to and from a market. Is there any real need to leave my tile? To mine asteroids and that's pretty much it? 

 

Also, trickle down economics isn't really a thing.

 

Someone can pull billions of quanta out of the game and most of it will sit in their wallets forever or get dumped into schematics. It doesn't always circulate. 

 

So...if NQ balances the game for the wealthy, established players it has now, it creates a feedback loop where it becomes harder and harder for new players to get established...that old wealth doesn't go anywhere, it rots in wallets and evaporates as accounts unsub or through taxes. 

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10 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

They need to balance for launch, not now, we are just guinea pigs.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but NQ has been dropping hints about a release by the end of this year.

And at the pace of development we have come to expect from NQ, that means Demeter going live will be the launch release..

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8 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but NQ has been dropping hints about a release by the end of this year.

And at the pace of development we have come to expect from NQ, that means Demeter going live will be the launch release..

 

Or a "semi-launch" really .... I think they are counting on new players to join when it "launches", who as we know would have something to do (play) for at least a couple of months, which should give NQ the much needed money and the time to implement more features to the game.

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9 hours ago, sHuRuLuNi said:

 

Or a "semi-launch" really .... I think they are counting on new players to join when it "launches", who as we know would have something to do (play) for at least a couple of months, which should give NQ the much needed money and the time to implement more features to the game.

But that would be the second (third depending how you look at it with pre-releases)  time they try this. There was already a beta soft-release (which is reality was an alpha by any normal definition), and they got no where other then dropping players like flies and burning bridges.

 

So what has changed this time? Judging by how they are handling Demeter, nothing has really changed and NQ is still the same NQ as always. Meaning that the "release" will only be a repeat of the "beta" soft-release.

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On 11/5/2021 at 8:52 PM, CptLoRes said:

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but NQ has been dropping hints about a release by the end of this year.

And at the pace of development we have come to expect from NQ, that means Demeter going live will be the launch release..

Really?  Must have missed those 'hints', arent we already at the end of the year?  Fancy a bet?  I dont think there is any chance that Demeter is the launch release.

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