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DEVBLOG: THE FUTURE OF DU - Part 3 - Discussion Thread


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Energy systems are the only way to balance PVP. The damage output of weapons is meaningless if you can slap 50 large turrets and 25 XL engines on a block of solid gold. Energy has to be prioritized before we can even think about balance, because without it any attempt at balance can just be circumvented by adding more things to the ship.

 

Shields would be really nice to have, something I've been anticipating for a long time, but without energy systems they're just another thing you can stack on a ship to make it even more OP.

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And all of this to be completed by the end of the year? Why is NQ not coming clean and out by making it clear that release of the game will be pushed out   There is a lot in this blogpo

Discuss the final chapter of this series below!  What are you most looking forward to? 

If you make at least 50% what's written there in coming months, you saved your game.

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"Deploy a ground unit on your tile and it generates ore" sounds a lot more like the sort of income generation gameplay you'd expect from a mobile game like Clash of Clans (Gold mines, etc) than the sort of thing I'd expect on a AAA PC MMO.  I hope there's going to be more to it than just dumping down an item on a structure and the ore magically appearing in a container that has to be emptied by hand regularly ...

 

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For starters, Congrats NQ for trying to communicate and doing it.

Right now you(NQ) have got yourselves  some room to move. Most of us will wait for a while before falling hard on you again.

And, It is quite important that we see some problems of the game being pointed out as "problems" by you.

 

The main change yet to see in communication is: When S hits the fan next time, and it will (bug, patch, priority, ban, exploit), will you remain communicative as we see right now? Or will we see more of that silence that we know so much?

About this part 3, some ppl have said it already and i agree:
Reducing pain is part of the task, but its not worth much if there is no fun at all.

 

NQ, ask yourselves  as players, not as devs.

  • Where is the fun part of the game?
  • Is that "fun" durable or repeatable? Or restricted to the weeks 1 and 2? Or only for late game?
  • Is this "fun" available to everyone? Or just big org members? Or just pirates?
  • Is this "fun" enjoyable by most kinds of players? Or only grinders, builders or PVPes?
  • Is this "fun" paid with a heavy sadness from other players?

To me the game is not fun at this point. And I have all the quanta and resources I will ever need. 

 

Sure its fun to build a XS core. But above that, either I'm just joking around or it becomes complicated and not that fun.
This building fun will not keep me in a joy state for the next years to come.

 

Same as mining. 1st week of mining its actually not that bad. I found my self learning about how tools work and took pride of finding nodes faster than other ppl.

It was also a joy to receive my 1st paycheck from selling my ore. Knowing I could build something out of my earnings.

But can this joy fulfill me for years? Of course not.
How will automining increase my joy? 100% better than grinding all day, But by it self, brings no joy, just reduces pain.

 

How about the economy? Well, wining in the economy can bring some joy, sure. But at the expense of several others losing. While it brings diversity and an alternative way of playing the game. it is quite neutral in joy creation.
And with few big orgs doing most of the profit, joy is very limited...
Those big org members are working hard to be perfect. This is not that enjoyable. And competition is being squashed.

PVP is much like economy, quite neutral, or even negative for joy. For any winner there is a loser. For every loot gained, there is a huge frustration generated by loosing allot.

Again, cutting down on pain is Very Positive, and thank you.

But you still need to generate fun.

So here are some "easy" to implement suggestions for fun creation:

  1. PVP duels/arena. Some place where ppl can go and shoot each other, with (informed) consent and with little to no consequence.
    With both players being able to bring back their ships after the fight
     
  2. Directional voice chat. RP is very important for sustainable fun. Being able to say some words to the surrounding ppl, or to your ship, is quite important,
     
  3. NPCs and NPC loot is a must. No way around this. The only way to have a "positive joy balance" is to transport most of the sadness to NPCs.
    I know this is hard to program. But start with dummy stuff. With little or zero AI, Like:
    A Static station with just auto-firing turrets that will shoot at anyone in range. With a loot box inside.
    Or a Non Voxel ship, simply a custom-made 3d model that will have an HP bar and will shoot at ships. When it blows up, a container with loot is spawned.
    Or simply spawn loot boxes and clues to those around the map.
     
  4. Make it easier for ppl to move around. A good amount of joy comes from social interaction and team gameplay. But its quite hard to have team gameplay when someone needs 3 hours of millions of quanta in warp cells to come joy the team.
    Fast travel is needed. In a way that it can only be used for avatars and never for cargo.
    One idea is to UnNerf the surrogate.



You said:
"There’s a delicate balance to strike between staying as true as we can to the original vision, making smart design and production choices, taking players’ feedback into consideration, and creating more opportunities for community engagement. The game needs to be challenging but, most of all, fun. It can be a tall order sometimes, but not an impossible goal"

I say: Screw the original vision.

Most has been proven to be a sad failure:

  • Players don't give a damn about building any kind of civilization, they just want to fulfill their joy or close DU and run another game.
  • Player exclusive economy is making every little guy being squashed by big orgs.
  • Player made content made players quit because of lack of content.

Instead, do what you must to make this work. To make us feel joy.

Good luck.

 

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5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

The actual value of these posts is minimal at best. It's fluff and filler. While I get that currently the company has other things to get sorted, why not communicate that more clearly and create time for yourself to make that happen. This just feels like it's mostly ignoring the reality of what NQ is going through which unfortunately is more of the same.

Seriously, why are you still here?  You ask for more communication, and you get it, but it's not good enough for you?  There is some truly exciting news about the game in those three posts and you don't have one single good thing to say?  They give you some concrete intentions and plans and you say it's just fluff and filler?  Are you a paid troll? Move on with your life if nothing NQ says or does make you happy.  Can you be more miserable?

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Thank you NQ for the posts recently.  There are several items in there that I am looking forward to.

 

Mining: So I am not a miner in this game, I am a builder.  I didn't really mind the way mining works in this game, but after you get your talents up, that's it, it is still mining.  I have always liked Minecraft's progression with mining (in certain mods) where you dig to get resources, build faster and more efficient tools to dig, then automate mining so you can concentrate on building your empire.  That process always felt good to me, so I look forward to see how the mining units work.  My hope is that they stay balanced and don't get to an end-game level of resources too quick.  Also, searching for asteroids in empty space seems like a good expansion for folks who scan hexes, although they have to be somewhat quick about securing it/mining it if it becomes public knowledge after a bit.

 

Missions: I have been looking forward to missions so players can create jobs, but hearing that there may be some NQ missions is even more exciting.  I am curious as to what kind of specialized missions we can expect.

 

Territory Control: I am a little concerned about how the territory control in space is going to work. I hope that when it gets implemented that, the "pipes" between planets don't instantly get clogged with territory control.  Maybe that is intended, but I hope there is a balance there.

 

Adding some "fun" into the game is definitely desired, but also performance enhancements is what is most needed.  I hope the new screen adjustments do that for everyone.

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25 minutes ago, Dr Rhubarb said:

 You ask for more communication, and you get it, but it's not good enough for you?

It's the kind of person he is. And not in the bad way.

Some ppl, like blaze will focus on what's the "problem". The "solved part" is not worth pointing out because it is solved,

This is not evil, miserable or even 100% wrong. It's just his way of trying to be efficient on his comments.
I'm kind of like him.

But players, devs and management are humans. And when humans do a positive thing, it is quite efficient to give them a "carrot" instead of the "stick". Sometimes he seams to forget that.

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Why, exactly, will you be broadcasting asteroids that players spend time, quanta and resources to find themselves out to all the pirates so they can come take it? Wouldn't it be only fair to require pirates to spend some time, quanta and resources to find US?

 

Please reconsider this decision.

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20 minutes ago, Dhara said:

Why, exactly, will you be broadcasting asteroids that players spend time, quanta and resources to find themselves out to all the pirates so they can come take it?

 

It sounds to me like NQ will mostly treat asteroids like events such as the ships that have been spawned in with clues left to find them. It's not actually an organic part of the game. 

 

NQ really needs to go back to the drawing board on a number of these mechanics as they feel bolted on and not actually part of the game design. I'd love to see something in the vein of how EVE handles signatures that need to be scanned down to get access to. The way it is done now it's set up so that the explorer does all the work to find the asteroids and once they do, the pew pew brigade just gets the news that an asteroid is found, where it is and so they can just get out there and catch whoever is there. I'm not sure how that will be either rewarding for the person getting caught or interesting for the player looking to catch him/her.

 

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5 hours ago, Lethys said:

So.....the overall picture is painted now.

On to the details with many  more blogs and explaining how you envision certain mechanics in detail 

 

you forgot the /s here ;)

 

 

I think you are well aware that what is posted now is not even close to getting implemented yet and while NQ may try and get the mission system out before summer for real this time, everything else will not show up until september or later.

 

I'd really like to hear form NQ that hey are pushing out the planned release date from end of 2021 by at least a year and actually plan for and dedicate time on fixing the core problems the game and the server tech have.. You know the thing that some of us have been asking them for about two years now to do. IF NQ continues to force feed a release of the game by end of 2021.. it wil not end well.

 

I have a suspicion this marketing/PR push was planned already and no one thought to hold off until the current CEO has actually been able to establish whether the company will be viable enough to get a new lease on existence with fresh investment money. It just feels like some inside NQ are oblivious to the situation the company is in and just push on with their plans.

 

I hope NQ find enough to justify further investment and I hope that in the process he will cut the fat and get rid of some of the ballast that is weighing the company down. I'd expect we'll get more clarity in a week or two but for now.. what happens next is entirely unsure, no matter how hard some in NQ seem to want to try and make it appear everything is fine..

 

 

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2 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

"Deploy a ground unit on your tile and it generates ore" sounds a lot more like the sort of income generation gameplay you'd expect from a mobile game like Clash of Clans (Gold mines, etc) than the sort of thing I'd expect on a AAA PC MMO.  I hope there's going to be more to it than just dumping down an item on a structure and the ore magically appearing in a container that has to be emptied by hand regularly ...

 

This is a AAA MMO??? Last I checked they crowd funded the game on kickstarter before getting VC funding

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Well, mining and territory.

Currently it is max boring to get your stuff by hand mining.
I do not talk about getting your first xs core but running a industry.

There is no meaning of terrytory unint exept blocking the tile.

Suggestion to change this a little.

Make Mining units with something like this behavior:

1. Can only used in claimed territory. (hand diging says as is)

2. the amount of ores mined/day is depending on ores in the mined tile, no depletion, or very low (0,1% 1% ...)

3. the amount of ore mined is depending of maschine lvl

4. the amount of ore mined is depending on skills of the tile owner and the setting one

5. there is a wide playfield for autominer variations. one for all, one for all of the ame tier, one for each single ore. Amount of ore that can be stored locally.


cost/miner ore amount what you get and skill requirement can be used to make the difference.

 

This leads to multiple side effects.
1. Untuched tiles have more value

2. Territory warfare and intel have a meaning

3. strip mining of tiles is not more the best way for industry runnning on the long term

4. having various haulers becomes more meaningfull. (You have to plan your round trips)


Now get startet, rip it apart or make improvements based on this idea.
Keep in mind that it is not meant for the first xs core , but for the LOOOOOOONG turn. Like building cities.

 

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I like most of these ideas but i still don't think it will be enough to keep people playing

 

In my opinion NPCs need to be implemented in the game, along with stations/outposts in space and on planets. Maybe implement some factions and give them X amount of tiles that people can challenge for. This will fill the void and give everyone a crack at combat and more people will then start getting interested in PVP as well (imo). Giving them some tiles would be difficult so this would require a wipe or maybe the creation of a new extremely territorial planet perhaps

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That's a good plan and overview. I like that you are sticking to PvP interaction and not introducing any imaginary PvE play, like shooting NPC ships, etc. I am excited and curious to see how the DU will develop with only human players and no NPC. Once you implement all planned features, I hope NPCs will not be missed by the players who are demanding for it now.

 

  • Schematics: I feel current schematics are fine. I am speaking as core producer, with 100+ assemblers churning out elements. May be some the very expensive schematic price can be pared down. Other than that schematics has to stay. If not, there won't be any role for those who want to manufacture and sell.
  • Mining units : I am slightly concerned about the ore glut that may happen because of automated mining. I agree, current mining mechanism is tedious. Unless there is large enough sink for ores there should be some sort effort involved mining. You, DU, also need to consider the economics of tokens. Mining will probably one of the main revenue generator for those who make Quanta to buy tokens. What can help mining easier is to make it semi AFK game play like other persistent game like Eve Online or Perpetuum. This will let people mine, while multi tasking like watching movie, etc.
  • Graphics : I am fine with the graphics as it is now. I would prefer any further development on graphics, to be of lower priority, unless it is for performance reasons. I would like to economics develop faster i.e. more ways to make and spend money. Looking forward to Mission systems.

So far you have been doing good as far as game development goes. You have been quite steady sticking to the original vision. It is understandable that one of the kind game mechanics is keeping your engaged in fine tuning it. Next thing is well planned faucet and sink for Quanta. Get a strong economics person into the team, if you don't have one already. Economics will play very important role in balancing this kind of game in the long run. Eve online is the best example here. They keep the data analytics excited with monthly report on various metrics. I hope you will also do that eventually once full game is out. 

 

Thanks and all the best to the DU team. You are making history making first fully editable persistent single shard world!

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Good Job NQ ! 

I read your post on game launcher and i find these things you are about to do excellent !

Hope this game will be complete so that we can enjoy it more.

Keep up the good work !  

We are with you ...

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

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11 hours ago, Dhara said:

Why, exactly, will you be broadcasting asteroids that players spend time, quanta and resources to find themselves out to all the pirates so they can come take it? Wouldn't it be only fair to require pirates to spend some time, quanta and resources to find US?

 

Please reconsider this decision.

 

I knew they would fuck up Asteroids.  They don't have enough development sense to make a fun and engaging longer range radar scanning system, to actually go out and explore the depths of space to find asteroids.  Putting the ground work on a scanning system would then lead to also scanning for possible NPC wrecks, other player ships, anomolies, etc etc that could make space exploration actually fun, exciting, and dangerous.  Things I would want in a space video game. 
 

No no no, lets just "broadcast it for everyone" so they can check off a box and make it probably a small event then be done with it.

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59 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

They don't have enough development sense to make a fun and engaging longer range radar scanning system,

 

This is very true, I think a big issue with DU in general is that there is too much "endpoint" content being considered while the game has a very limited choice of underlying mechanics to feed into those. And even then, NQ mostly has a "programmer's" mindset with regards to solving in game problems and does not think creatively or consider actually gameplay solutions.

 

A good example is the change to applying talents to constructs or elements. The problem was that someone needed to get build rights, then remove elements and put them back to apply buffs but his breaks links and is a potential security risk if the owner forgets to remove the rights for the person doing the buffs.

 

A gameplay solution would be to:

  • Introduce a "one time access" option to RDMS, allowing an owner to grant access to a construct once and this right is removed automatically once the character doing the buffs leaves build mode.
  • The character doing the buffs enters build mode and removes elements  and then undoes this to have buffs applied, links will be preserved/restored when the removal is undone.
  • once complete the character doin the buffs exits build mode and as mentioned the access to build mode for the construct is automatically removed.

 

The Solution NQ decided on:

  • Right click > apply talents

 

NQ intents to use the existing "event mechanic" for asteroids as it is available and in their thought pattern is good enough to use here. This system is not autonomous so all sorts of side steps wil be needed to make this an unattended process unless NQ goes the easy way there as well and just has someone do a manual spawn of these asteroids every now and then.

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14 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Anyone else wondering where the power management mechanic has disappeared to?

 

I suspect because they afraid too bother "amazing creations" and they lobbying amazing creators. So they not need to be re-build (in case of ships) or become irrelevant (like space stations that unable to sustain huge industry).

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23 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

Discuss the final chapter of this series below!  What are you most looking forward to? 

One thing missing from your part 3 that is one of the biggest issues in the game IMO, How does NQ intend to fix the warp problem?

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

A gameplay solution would be to:

A game play solution would be a right click option saying "apply my talents to this element" 

And a RDMS permission saying "apply talents" 

 

This is like 10 to 50 lines of code. 

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1 minute ago, Physics said:

Then reconnect me and explain what made you write the personal comment against me.

The game is nearly failing because of lack of fun.

Players are too bored and fustrated to play. 

Nq is talking about radical changes needed to revive the game. 

 

Do you feel that your "warp problem" has any relevant part to play? 

 

Im not saying that there aren't 100 game mechanic that need balancing or redoing.

But is this "warp problem" of any significance compared to the tortured players experience in grinding? 

Do you feel like you "warp problem" should be put in N1 priority of any development action? 

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