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DEVBLOG: THE FUTURE OF DU - Part 3 - Discussion Thread


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7 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

The game is nearly failing because of lack of fun.

Players are too bored and fustrated to play. 

Nq is talking about radical changes needed to revive the game. 

 

Do you feel that your "warp problem" has any relevant part to play? 

 

Im not saying that there aren't 100 game mechanic that need balancing or redoing.

But is this "warp problem" of any significance compared to the tortured players experience in grinding? 

Do you feel like you "warp problem" should be put in N1 priority of any development action? 

Do I feel that warp should be looked at while NQ are finally addressing the lack of PVP content? Damn right I do. The Get out of pvp free card needs to end and replaced with counter measures. Warp needs to be more dangerous to use, not a free pass. 

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And all of this to be completed by the end of the year? Why is NQ not coming clean and out by making it clear that release of the game will be pushed out   There is a lot in this blogpo

Discuss the final chapter of this series below!  What are you most looking forward to? 

If you make at least 50% what's written there in coming months, you saved your game.

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4 minutes ago, Physics said:

Do I feel that warp should be looked at while NQ are finally addressing the lack of PVP content? Damn right I do. The Get out of pvp free card needs to end and replaced with counter measures. Warp needs to be more dangerous to use, not a free pass. 

 

Defending those priorities you show how you place a minor detail of game play in the same level of redefining the pillars to make the game viable. 

 

In fact, you are so disconnected from reality that you dont even see that if the game fails, investment ends, servers close, you wont be able to kill those helpless and undefended freighters and noobs anymore. 

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59 minutes ago, Physics said:

 How does NQ intend to fix the warp problem?

 

There is a warp problem? I'm serious here, what is the problem with Warp?

 

If you mean that warp endpoints are currently in safezones which will be removed once Planet side PVP starts, how is that a problem? 

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On subject of warp, most space MMO's have warp interdiction, there needs to be a counter to every action. Should be easily implementable, then a few balance passes.

Player markets need to be a priority, taxed on planets, zero tax on space stations.

New player experience is difficult with all the trash around markets, if that was fixed we wouldn't wouldn't have to put pressure on changing screens. 

I hope NQ is listening to the Lua community, there are some exceptionally clever minds there with some sound solutions.

 

That said NQ do not have a huge team of programmers, they are quite a small outfit. There are only so many hours in a day and they all have families to go home to after working long hours. So they get my support.

 

Dual is a game like no other, I keep coming back to it as it has so much potential. Lets hope they can keep the community together and get the financial support they need. 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Snipey said:

This is a AAA MMO??? Last I checked they crowd funded the game on kickstarter before getting VC funding

The monthly sub price planned for the finished product is the same as for a AAA MMO.  Therefore ...

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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Anyone else wondering where the power management mechanic has disappeared to?

Considering the last time they did an AMA I asked about power in general and they said it was coming with territory warfare I dont have high hopes of seeing it soon. Unless they introduce it with their magical space territories. 

 

2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

There is a warp problem? I'm serious here, what is the problem with Warp?

 

If you mean that warp endpoints are currently in safezones which will be removed once Planet side PVP starts, how is that a problem? 

Because the problem is we're living in a world where planetary pvp is easily a year away. As long as people and orgs are allowed to keep their primary infrastructure in safezones one of the key pvp drivers is non existent. Not to mention wheres the fun or risk in just warping between planets to mine high tier ore and sell it into the void? 

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4 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

There is a warp problem? I'm serious here, what is the problem with Warp?

 

If you mean that warp endpoints are currently in safezones which will be removed once Planet side PVP starts, how is that a problem? 

This +1
Once they remove the planet side safety net, the PVP begins. There will be no safe zones. So Warp will not be an issue.

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I left the game upon the release of 0.23 and left the forum shortly after because I didn't see a point in arguing on a forum that didn't matter. NQ wasn't listening and as long as JC was in charge, that wouldn't change.  So I pop back in for a look as I have been doing and things have changed, Someone new is supposedly in charge and we have some new dev blogs. 

 

The first two meant little to me but the third gave me some hope that maybe someone has listened and maybe someone at NQ understands game design. 

 

We are going to scan for asteroids and if we find one, we get it to ourselves for a while before everyone else sees our flag, the energy signature, the magic mining dust or whatever gives us away. 

This is great as long as we are talking about a sufficient number of asteroids spawned at any given time - Otherwise a few big corps will dominate. Those of us scanning will have choices (good!) to grab what we can, tell our buddies and try to hold the asteroids by force or send along the coordinates and zip away in our speedy ships in search of more roids. 

 

I would add that it would be very cool to see asteroids of different sizes. The biggest being the easiest to scan but the fastest revealed to the world,  the smallest being hard to locate but yours for a good chunk of time. 

 

I did not see any indication that NQ understands just how badly the game has been handled to this point. I still think a server wipe (of resources at least) will be needed but I don't think that should happen until the game becomes a real beta and there are strong gameplay loops to retain players. Integrate the best builds into the new world and start the game right. 

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The "warp problem" is that travel isn't dangerous, only expensive. But its not so expensive as to tempt anybody into cutting corners and going somewhere on foot rather than paying $ to warp. In fact the "safe" option is more convenient, getting you there in seconds. The cheap option involves a boring hours long trek across empty space that could easily turn into a terrible disaster. And because of the timelines involved, you may have gone to the john, or to go wack off, or take a walk, or cook dinner by time something actually happens. 

 

In a balanced game, the safe option would be more expensive, and less convenient than the dangerous option. That way you tempt people into cutting corners and generating content. And you reward people who can handle themselves in tough situations. 

 

The "warp problem" would be fixed if planetary pvp was implemented. In that case, taking a direct warp path to a pvp planet would be the most foolish, dangerous thing to do. But the problem with that is that planetary PVP is almost certainly pretty far down the development pipeline. That means travel into what should be PVP territory is just safe, and will be for the foreseeable future. 

 

That's the "warp problem" and its probably a lot easier for the devs to move the warp points out of the safe zone than to implement planetary pvp. Which means asking the devs for that kind of thing makes sense to do. And bringing it up is a reasonable ask. As opposed to say, demanding planetary PVP happen right now.

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10 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

A gameplay solution would be to:

  • Introduce a "one time access" option to RDMS, allowing an owner to grant access to a construct once and this right is removed automatically once the character doing the buffs leaves build mode.
  • The character doing the buffs enters build mode and removes elements  and then undoes this to have buffs applied, links will be preserved/restored when the removal is undone.
  • once complete the character doin the buffs exits build mode and as mentioned the access to build mode for the construct is automatically removed.

 

The Solution NQ decided on:

  • Right click > apply talents

 

As constant element upgrader of the ships (and static constructs too!) I am very happy with the solution provided by NQ, I mean RMB -> apply talents. It is very time consuming solution 1000% needed to be done from the start (as well as dismantle the whole construction in one click, for example).

 

Removing/undoing element tends to a lot of problems (like problems with undoing broken element, or element with properties; like problems if you'll just disconnect from the internet because of what ever reason; or just game client will randomly crash).

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Mining units:

 

I like the idea if mining units will generate ore income depending on available ore in the tile. The more ore tile has the more output would be produced by mining unit. This will reduce the need of ore mining at all and will make territory warfare meaningfully.

 

Another option would be taking into consideration the area of your linked territory (not the total amount of tiles you/your org owns), so the more tiles are connected between each other the more benefits it gives to mining units. This also will make territory ware even more meaningfully.

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I hope that the game develops in a balanced way. Players who don't like PVP should also be able to mine all ores, but these should be deeper and in larger areas than in the PVP zone. Otherwise it will quickly become boring.

 

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I can remember that once there was told "no automated Mining" Seems that changed and opened up a hole new area of abuse for those who gathered millions and millions and were never banned. if i was them i would already buy and build all TU I can find and plant them Anywhere. And then its just waiting for the units and done. All the more reason for the behavioural patern to just do nothing about exploids and some people who deliberately loop holes to be handeled correctly.

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4 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

What exploit was this? Did you report it? 

 

Two non

 

PvP grade ores being in PvE areas (expected)

 

Market prices were terribly balanced in the week of early access for kickstarter players.

 

———-

 

two allowed.

 

alt-f4 stopping ships mid air before crash.  This provides great support to allow faster gains than future/current players will have since people got to ignore landing physics.

 

using the maneuvering tool to raise ships as high as needed (antigravity levels).  This time allowing players to ignore take off physics.

 

———-

 

several reset worthy 

 

multiple item duplication bugs tied to industry.

 

several ways to maintain a container link beyond max range.   Most notable being linked to a container that’s anywhere in the universe, while market terminals would dump into them.

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1 hour ago, HangerHangar said:

 

several reset worthy 

 



Sure those things happened. As expected on a Beta(disguised Alpha) release.

But what im asking is about "were never banned". I Wanna know from Cain what bug exploit was worthy of getting a ban.

You can also give your opinion Ofc.


I'm just wondering if there are still ppl in this game thinking that mining and selling to NPCs on 1st week was a bannable exploit.

We were all informed about the rule set at that 1st week. No one knew more than any other player.
There was no bug involved. And no player triggered a bug mining.
The same had happened en previous resets and was so expected that players talked about ,on discord and forums, about what planets they would be moving in on the very 1st day.

So why should anyone be banned for following the rule set implemented by NQ and publicly available on that time?

 

If NQ remove the pvp-free zone on sanctuary moon, and ANNOUNCE that everyone can shoot who ever they find in the sanctuary moon.

Then one week later they go back on their rule set and reimplement the protection. Should everyone that killed someone that week be banned?

PPl played the game by the rules available on that time. With zero exploits. And anyone saying they did not can GFTS.

PS, I'm not saying it was fair, specially for non alpha players that arrived 1 week later. But it was the rule set defined by NQ.
PS2, I agree 100% with a full reset at release date.

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Sorry for the wall of text...

TL/DR: Consider the wider player base first (on both sides of the pvp line).

 

In regards to the issues of:

-How stuff played in backer week / when "X" bug existed:

It was imperfect, it needed fixes, and for the most part they were implemented. Wanting to wipe the world because some folks got lucky and played an easy meta for a bit without breaking the rules is like wanting a wipe because you aren't the greatest after joining a persistent world late.

 

Wiping the world to deal with the guys that abused an actual bug somewhere to get absurdly wealthy must be weighed against the loss that would be suffered by all those that didn't break the rules. Yes it is possible for portions of the gains of such problems to survive anything short of a wipe, but is completion-ist "the fruit of this bug was totally removed" worth burning everything everyone else has when some more targeted responses against just those abusers can be used to deal with the majority of the gains? Barring some extremely good reasons a lot of players would probably just quit if they had to lose all their stuff they spent all this time collecting (and worry about losing it again) because some other guy abused a bug and got an L-core cargo-block's worth of fuel/voxel/ect...

 

-Automated Mining:

This is a mixed bag. Mining is tedious, but more or less required for most of us to actually be able to afford to do things. The game needs a reduction in mining tedium in a bad way, and automating mining will help with that, but as with every change people that are better prepared to make use of it will have an advantage over those that are less prepared.


-"The Warp Problem":

Much as it annoys pvp'rs, the care-bears need somewhere to play, and the Alioth system is supposed to be DU's equivalent of EVE high-sec. Additional systems are supposed to be free of safe-zones, and interdiction will let you tag people that get careless with warp. It's on their to-do list, just got to wait for it.

 

-NPC stuff:

Part of where the game suffers right now is a simple lack of stuff to do. There are no missions, nothing to gain from exploration other than sight-seeing, no points of value for pvp players to fight over, ect... Players can make content, but until they do NQ has to pick up the slack to keep the player-base interested.

 

-PvE combat specifically:

There is no simple way to work this. NQ doesn't want one guy flying an ISD armored with script/AI-controlled guns (and, I do mean armored with guns, if you've played SE and seen someone coating every flat exterior surface of a death-brick with turrets you know what I'm talking about), or worse one guy commanding a fleet of drone ISD. They can work around it, but it wont be a short few lines of code if they want to keep a player-ship/station's crew requirement. 

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind some manner of pve combat if they added it in (properly, killing static targets by out-ranging them or abusing respawn gets boring really fast, and tricking reckless L core NPCs in to killing themselves with a ram would both get old quick and break the economy again). It would give care-bears that combat-lite many of them enjoy long-term, and it would generally be another thing for the wider content-starved player base to do.

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On 4/16/2021 at 6:10 PM, Noddles said:

You do know artists and modelers can't game balance or create new systems right? Those are very different skill sets. 

I agree with him that the work on texture and tree model is a bit wasted. Artists are needed to add new content; Those mining units, asteroids, cloud gas and singularities will need some work too. Beside that, something they could be doing pretty much on their own is to add cosmetic models and multiple models for existing ship parts (there is already a skin menu waiting to be filled).

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On 4/18/2021 at 8:16 AM, Aaron Cain said:

I can remember that once there was told "no automated Mining" Seems that changed and opened up a hole new area of abuse for those who gathered millions and millions and were never banned. if i was them i would already buy and build all TU I can find and plant them Anywhere. And then its just waiting for the units and done. All the more reason for the behavioral pattern to just do nothing about exploits and some people who deliberately loop holes to be handled correctly.

Automated Mining has been the plan since the start of Beta at least, and maybe even before. I think I remember something about automated mining during Alpha.

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On 4/16/2021 at 6:09 PM, Redlight said:

So I'm not too sure why there continues to be a push to increase the graphics in game.  First of all, they are beautiful.  Top notch.  Second of all, has anyone ever said, "Man, DU has so much to do, and I really love it, but this texture mapping has me wanting to quit." Or, "Man, DU seems like a lot of fun, at a really good price, but until they improve the 3D models, I'm not buying it"?  Every hour spent by an employee working on increasing the graphics instead of adding additional content is an absolute waste, and will do nothing to improve the player experience, or player numbers.

Surprisingly, i see one complain about "quit because graphic" no more late than yesterday, im not remember on discord or forum. Lmao

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So here's the thing.  I quit and I don't plan on coming back because I don't trust your big vision is fun.  I think you're going to try to copy eve online and make it so that the solo/small group is just food to be chewed up and spit out by the big group; the join a big group or don't play at all mentality.  Yeah, no thanks.

I would have kept going for a while regardless, except the fun:suck ratio just wasn't there on the small scale either... the tipping point was losing my main testbed ship to a disconnect, despite an AGG.  That's not fun.  Going through the effort of repairing it did not sound even remotely fun.  It's been a while since I unsubbed (I still follow the discord to get an idea of where things might be going) so my list of what was and was not fun is hazy by this point, but the only real fun thing was building and flying stuff, and even that was borderline because the tools for both just were not great at all (the suck on ship design should be creative challenges, not the tools themselves.)

Promising it'll be easier for us to get jobs in a game where people say the problem is it feels like a job?  I, uh, I don't get that at all.

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