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Spaceboys ask big wipe


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6 minutes ago, Drexxx said:

I fail to see the reason why care-bear scrubs who think they have the prettiest base in the game think a wipe will fix things. No, it will just re-enforce how they, still, will be scrubs after the top players in the game will consistently progress past them - what then, they will call for a wipe again, and again

btw, I think there should be a VERY small newbie zone and NO safe zones for endgame players, period - you want to progress past T1, venture in the danger, else there is no game

Quit wasting our time.

-- Drexxx

There are at least two types of players.

Those who like pvp and will engage in different stages of pvp and write stories.
Those who dont like pvp and want to build and create cities and read stories about those who are living outside safe zone.

We need them both for the game to be complete And bubble is needed. This wont be Rust or Ark 2 with no safe zones, etc.

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Firstly I'm going to just put this out there right now.
The only way that wipe will ever work is for NQ to allow the current players who are testing and playing the game to keep their trained talent points and have magic blueprints.

As JC said:
"You can play the game as if you're actually playing sort-of live"
The interpretation is that we're playing for keeps now.

If neither one of those are provided then the population of DU will drop to a few hundred players a week and low activity. Will it ever return? I don't know but I can confirm that BOO will effectively mass exodus the game and the true carebears will be able to flourish unchecked, and unchallenged. Carebears will be able to grow without any risk of traversing the starts and do Whatever they wish without fear of Pirates.

 

As it stands, in order to maintain some semblance of energy to play the game we had to diversify our focuses to other games and come back when the will to play is there.

If they wipe without:

- preserving talents
- activating magic blue prints

 

BOO and many other PVP groups will be leaving.

 

Now I do see the need for a wipe though.

Just not one that sets everyone back to zero because some who play the game think it's unfair advantage. 

The newer launch players will need a chance to grow and claim their territory.

However the main question here is:


Why the hell am I playing this beta now?

Why are thousands of those still playing the game putting in the time?

People already hate mining in this game, why should they have to mine all over again?

The voxel libraries that already take a long time to produce just to have to do it all over again after beta?

People who are paying for subscriptions right now just to have to do all that work all over again?

No

If this game wipes, those who've put in the time now just for the ability to carry their builds and designs and constructs into launch will leave permanently and the word of mouth generated from that alone will make this game die on a financial level.

Many of the streamers have already left the game because playing this game was hurting their viewer base... and thus their money.

 

Will the tech be seen as something that's viable?

Possibly, however, NQ said themselves that the benchtesting they can do doesn't hold a candle to the benchtesting data that comes from the massive armada battles that the community can create.

 

The further they push this game to an extremist case because of the carebears crying and screaming to change the game to their liking will mean that less people will be interested in the game because it only boasts the environment best suited to the smallest group in the game industry.

 

One more time:

If they wipe without:

 - Preserving talents

 - Activating magic blueprints

 

This game will die and it's return will be based entirely on how far they can stretch the money they have/get to how long can they afford to keep this game running.

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Anyone asking for a wipe is more naive than NQ deciding to deploy 0.23 what was effectively an Indy wipe. 
 

What is the problem with DU? Most people are bored of doing the same old thing to progress, dig holes and mine ores. So the idea here is to wipe? What would that accomplish? Oh wait.. more reason to dig holes and mine ores. That will keep people interested in playing the game I’m sure.

 

People have put in too much time in building their foundations with the promise from NQ not to wipe unless there is no other option, e.g Game killing bug that cannot be recovered without a wipe.

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A wipe right now is an absolutely horrible idea. For launch, possibly. Even still, it’s a catch 22.
 

By the time launch rolls around, you will have had people invest a lot more of their money into subscriptions, and this would definitely sour their feelings toward NQ by doing it later, rather than sooner. However, if you wipe before the pillars of the game are fully realized, the player base may not come close to reaching the needed development to actually test the game properly. You NEED people with the resources to build and manufacture at a large scale, especially with more PVP content on the way. A hard wipe without bots and ways to make money outside of mining is impossible. There’d be no money to even start the economy, let alone sustain it. And even then, you need MANY ways to generate quanta, otherwise it’s just mining 2.0. We’re  not even remotely close to that.

 

There was a time when I would have sided with a full wipe. I just returned to DU, having not played since early alpha, so this was a wipe for me, either way. I tend to lean towards not hard wiping - I see more cons than pros. There are too many bugs/optimization issues to even implement all the features (element destruction) properly, so I think there’s a LOT of work to be done before we even consider a wipe. I’m not sure what you gain by doing it, honestly.

 

In short, this is at best a discussion to have 6 months to a year out, and even that may not be enough time. If a wipe comes, it should only occur in preparation for launch, otherwise we may be having the same debate again before then. We need a feature full, highly functioning game, before we can even consider what a wipe should be and how it would work.

 

Wait for the final product, then we’ll see.
 

Regarding people paying subs, I think a fair compromise in the event of a wipe would be to offer them free post-launch game time and some of the other freebies promised to alpha backers (Pets/TUs/etc). That way, everyone who contributed pre-launch with subs didn’t feel like it was all for nothing, and their time and support was appreciated. 

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2 hours ago, Underhook said:

Sounds fair.  So, dont wipe now, wait til release?

If a wipe is required at all then most likely that would be a time to do it. Especially if they can do working magic blueprints. However it is not the ONLY time a wipe could be needed. There are of course other factors into what may require or prompt a wipe as a better idea then struggleing on.

 

For example i doubt anyone here with common sense would complain much if NQ came out and said for example "we figured out how to fix the code base and heavily optimise the game, however we need to wipe to impliment it due to several under the hood changes being imcompatable with the current save" That would be a situation where a wipe would make sense.

 

Another example of a wipe condition is to implment new features. For example they may tie in several new systems such as mining vehicles or player avatar gear. However said systems would break or be broken by current builds. That is also a wipe condition.

 

Lastly something may corrupt. This is supposidly an entirely new way of running a MMO i.e sharding. Its not at all unlikely they will go to do something eventually that works great in their private test world. But when deployed live makes the game go boom but only after enough time the backups are overwritten and said problem is unfixable.

 

That said i may be against a wipe NOW, but that is only because it makes no sense and serves no real purpose other then to "punish" a group of players who got ahead and in the grand scheme and does otherwise nothing good for the game and only harms it in the long run.

 

Currently as i said before if we wipe now any "fairness" issues are only going to be 10 times worse and most of the players calling for it will be worse off then they were before and those who could care less if BOO flys around in giant L core golden toilets with guns and M aggs or whatever else goes on. The ones they want punished wont care and will take massive advantage of the current lack of content and avalible progression to lock down the game even more.

 

And for those rustys calling for no safe zones. No. There is a reason even your vaunted eve has them. You want pvp and a healthy game then you need the prey to have safe places to hide. If you want them to venture out then you need to have reasons for them to WANT to go out, forcing them to pvp for the sake of pvp just drives them off and puts another cut into the game so it leaks lifeblood faster. 

 

Right now those lures dont exist and with the game the way it is, a "no safe zone" game would fold up wither and die on the vine. This is because you would gate 95% of the content behind months of grind and mandate mega orgs while killing off a huge percentage of the games population as they throw in the hats and leave. Especially as new orgs would have zero chance against established ones who basicly blocade systems.

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I feel that many can't see the forest through the trees as it relates to a wipe even perhaps NQ. When I say wipe I mean the only thing that can be retained is skill points and empty blueprints (magic blue prints negates a big point to a wipe in the first place). Also a wipe MUST come with 0 bots active in the market save to sell schematics.

 

The question of to wipe or not has 0 to do with 'fairness'. Anyone can objectively see groups will have advantage in any system related to the scale of their operation. Solo players who crying foul is just a rehash of the casual vs hardcore gamer arguments found in EVERY MMO. To be blunt any such concerns of it being unfair that 100 players can achieve or access more content then 1 or 10 can simply be dismissed.

 

What NQ need to considers is what they want DU to be. Do they want to spend the next 12 months having to balance everything against the norm of everyone flying around in invincible M -> L core 'luxury' ships , tricked out with T5 everything? Do they want there to be any place in the universe for XS or S ships? When my org thinks to build a hauler they think in terms of how many KT they want to haul as a standard metric. Whats the point of XS, S , or even M weapon systems or ships in a universe filled with L core battle boats? 

 

I know I know, energy system will solve all that!! No they won't. It is common place for people to use M or L cores "just because I can". What happens when the population is threatened with the idea that "gasp" they might have to replace the elements after casually smashing into the ground because they never learned to fly because gold scrap was everywhere? They explode in outrage of course! Never did it occur to anyone that these over-engineered ships might actually someday cost something to maintain because it never dawned on them these are supposed to be capital ships.

 

Why NQ should wipe:

 

You want a wipe, then wipe for the right purpose, to overhaul the progression curve from SP sandbox to an actual MMO. The schematic prices in 0.23 were fine. If anything the non finished product schematic prices were to low, and the finished far to high. You want someone to specialize in screws, then you need to not setup the price structure that someone able to afford the end schematic would obviously be able to afford the sub parts. You could have also gone ahead and made the sub component part recopies not produce a gaggle at a time and have them take far longer to make. You want to break omni factories, then you have to break the efficiency found in setting one up in the first place. If I need 100 machines to produce the number of screws needed to make 1 large engine per day(extreme example), I'm going to seriously ask myself if it's not far more efficient and cost effective for me to buy the end assemblers to make 10 per day if I buy the screws from other players on the market. You do this by making the end assembly comparatively far cheaper to set up compared to actually supplying that industry time/cost wise with parts to keep it running. This spurs people to make the sub parts as a business and prevents even groups from being able to just outright out produce the little guy in end products. 

 

To extend this the little guys could then actually afford to setup end assemblers and make their stuff for themselves affordably. The industrialists would all be competing against each other on sub component parts. The crafty businessman would be making deals for bulk orders on sub parts to establish a profitable line of end products. Then there would be more people making end products then 'industrialists' holding mega factories just to produce enough screws etc to keep the market demand supplied. The little guy who just wants to start in industry then has a place because even though his screw factory line might only pump out 10 screws per day, their value is maintained. He doesn't have to feel like he has to make Tier 5 military engines to even find a profit margin.

 

If you want a DU where it's not everyone running around in M /L ships then you adjust the difficulty of making and maintaining those ships appropriately. You naturally start this paradigm with Medium ship parts and up of all tiers. Make it so the average player has easy access to XS / S ship parts, containers to M for example. All Medium ship parts require uncommon sub components, all large advanced etc. I know people will flat panic at the idea of not being able to cart around 10Kt of ore effortlessly. With 0 bots the ore prices would stabilize such that even mining in small ships would be profitable. The orgs trying to stay 'self sustaining' would find themselves fighting an uphill battle against the participation of many more actors of all sizes in the market forcing them to ask is it really worth the expense to make our own end goods when we simply can't find some major market edge because we can't produce screws or whatnot any cheaper then mass offered on the market from the general populous can. 

 

This entire concept ONLY works with 0 bots in the market. You need to frankly force people to sell their ore to other people. A game where people receive money every day for logging in NEVER has a cash flow problem. Quanta is a medium of exchange and it's value should be determined by the free market not some arbitrary idea that people have that you need XYZ 'faucets' for people to earn money. You can faze out the daily award as you add alternate ways for players to make the same given X effort per day. People have this bad habit of thinking the game has to provide $$ from heaven of the economy will fail. The 'value' of that money is not in it's generation but in how much the average player has and is thus willing to pay for things. That value can only be set by a free market where bots are not constantly perverting it's perceived value. .You only have to balance that daily cash against how fast you want schematics to be bought. You have the nanocrafter in the game to allow people to make XS ships anywhere without touching a market.

 

The only way DU will ever have a functional market is if people start to relate the time they spend mining to some value received. Why are goods sold at less then ore value now? Because you can mine at such a rate and haul so much so easily that no one perceives the value of that time spent. If most people were using the capacity of small ships , and medium or smaller containers to haul things around that time would have to weighed far more seriously because of the logistics of how long it would take to bring that 2Kt you just found worth of ore back to market 100t at a time and the time it will take for it to sell to other players given current demand / price.

 

Shift your thinking NQ from SP sandbox to MMO. L core ships should NOT be the norm. Even M ships should be purpose built major investments. If you do not shift your thinking on this I fear DU will forever be plagued by having to balance against everyone always having everything and XS/S even M ship parts being utterly worthless. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Xennial said:

You want someone to specialize in screws

Lol... imagine paying a sub fee for an MMO where you specialize in screws. Seriously? I know of no player that wants to specialize in screws. Frankly I know of no player that wants to specialize in any singular thing with exclusion of specialization in other areas.

 

I do a whole bunch of everything and I prefer that. So do a lot of other players. Because sandbox. All of these limits will have a lot of ramifications, one of which would be: really shitty looking ships. They already are. Most people create flying cigars and that's it. Everyone is back in the mines looking for ore.

 

In an MMO, the way you engage players is... add more content. NQ's version of this idea is: uh.... we don't have new content, lets stretch out the old content by an obscene amount so people can play for the same content but 200-300 times slower. Yay, more content!

 

I suspect t4-t5 ores will be completely gone before asteroid mining becomes a thing, people are scanning over 200 tiles a day, a one man job. Some planets have already been mostly, if not completely scanned out. Let me guess, NQ will realize that this is a problem and limit players to 1 scan per day, or a scan fee in the millions. Yay, more content!
 

NQ could have increased industry into agriculture to provide more avenues for revenue sources... making fuels out of agricultural farming for example... making honeycomb... etc... No. No. This is not the way. The way is to gut industry to schematics, schematics that cannot be created nor copied nor used for multiple lines... I forgot this game is sci-fi... Yay, more content!

 

And on and on and on... If they waste their resources on a creative mode / pvp arena, I will demand a mining arena. Can't be any less stupid than whatever they're trying to help by adding in these modes.

 

And.. mmos are never fair. Never. People are delusional if they think a wipe will give everyone a level playing field. That's just not how the world works, especially not in games.

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I would avoid a wipe for now for the simple reason that the use of a wipe should be saved until after the upcoming PVP focused changes. Balancing PVP with the wealth/asset disparities we have may be very difficult and a wipe would be more useful then than it is now. Currently a wipe would set everyone back, but there's not much value in being 'ahead' with the current limited game play options.

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3 hours ago, Xennial said:

I feel that many can't see the forest through the trees as it relates to a wipe even perhaps NQ. When I say wipe I mean the only thing that can be retained is skill points and empty blueprints (magic blue prints negates a big point to a wipe in the first place). Also a wipe MUST come with 0 bots active in the market save to sell schematics.

  • This hardball approach to the game is the reason why people get up and walk away. If there's any one lesson that players and NQ should've realized by now is that when you lean to hard to one side or the other it creates this initial implementation of the game that costs us both carebears and PVPers... basically community members, and friends. On a larger scale it costs NQ subscriptions which means they get less money during beta.
3 hours ago, Xennial said:

The question of to wipe or not has 0 to do with 'fairness'. Anyone can objectively see groups will have advantage in any system related to the scale of their operation. Solo players who crying foul is just a rehash of the casual vs hardcore gamer arguments found in EVERY MMO. To be blunt any such concerns of it being unfair that 100 players can achieve or access more content then 1 or 10 can simply be dismissed.

  • I can agree with this 100%. There will ALWAYS be groups of people who will "no-life" an mmo and get further ahead faster than many others simply because they're in a position to do so.
3 hours ago, Xennial said:

What NQ need to considers is what they want DU to be. Do they want to spend the next 12 months having to balance everything against the norm of everyone flying around in invincible M -> L core 'luxury' ships , tricked out with T5 everything? Do they want there to be any place in the universe for XS or S ships? When my org thinks to build a hauler they think in terms of how many KT they want to haul as a standard metric. Whats the point of XS, S , or even M weapon systems or ships in a universe filled with L core battle boats?

  • The point of smaller sized ships comes with boons that L core ships do not possess:
    • L core ships accelerate slower (typically) and legitimate PVP l-core ships will not be seen in atmospheric areas.
    • XS,S and Medium core ships are easier to make atmo capable and the smaller sized ships are able to act as faster haulers vs the mediums (if properly designed)
    • When Energy mechanics come into the light I'm almost certain we'll see the field shift to ship designs take on a more thoughtful approach vs. the brick shits you see today.
    • For those who build the luxury ships means they put in the hundreds to thousands of game hours scanning, mining and refining and crafting the T5 everything to have that ship. As you mentioned earlier there's ALWAYS going to be people who will push for the absolute best of everything. The matter of balancing is a common denominator across all MMOs.
4 hours ago, Xennial said:

I know I know, energy system will solve all that!! No they won't. It is common place for people to use M or L cores "just because I can". What happens when the population is threatened with the idea that "gasp" they might have to replace the elements after casually smashing into the ground because they never learned to fly because gold scrap was everywhere? They explode in outrage of course! Never did it occur to anyone that these over-engineered ships might actually someday cost something to maintain because it never dawned on them these are supposed to be capital ships.

  • I actually agree with certain aspects of this point. Having an L-core means you possess the ability to take care of it from start to finish. You're able to field a crew to manage the power, handle fuel costs when travelling and deal with the PVP costs when in combat. Loss of elements should come at a price, one that makes PVP both enjoyable and have you stop briefly to consider how much of a risk you're taking by going "all-in" on this engagement. This balancing act is important for NQ to consider because while you want to ensure there's a risk you don't want the risk to be so overwhelming that people just say "Fuck this shit I'm out" at every opportunity to PVP or even travel outside the safezone. (Again, going back to being too extreme on anything leads to people not playing the game or subscribing and telling their friends, don't bother until they... NQ... gets their shit together).
4 hours ago, Xennial said:

You want a wipe, then wipe for the right purpose, to overhaul the progression curve from SP sandbox to an actual MMO. The schematic prices in 0.23 were fine. If anything the non finished product schematic prices were to low, and the finished far to high. You want someone to specialize in screws, then you need to not setup the price structure that someone able to afford the end schematic would obviously be able to afford the sub parts. You could have also gone ahead and made the sub component part recopies not produce a gaggle at a time and have them take far longer to make. You want to break omni factories, then you have to break the efficiency found in setting one up in the first place. If I need 100 machines to produce the number of screws needed to make 1 large engine per day(extreme example), I'm going to seriously ask myself if it's not far more efficient and cost effective for me to buy the end assemblers to make 10 per day if I buy the screws from other players on the market. You do this by making the end assembly comparatively far cheaper to set up compared to actually supplying that industry time/cost wise with parts to keep it running. This spurs people to make the sub parts as a business and prevents even groups from being able to just outright out produce the little guy in end products. 

  • To this nugget, no, the schematic prices were insanely high... again they leaned TOO FAR to one extreme rather than starting low and then slowly turning up the heat over time. This has been a constant thing every time they've implemented something new in DU where they've gone too far to one side or the other and the game just sucked horribly. ATV would even tell them, "Don' t do this, and don't do that" but the Devs wouldn't listen and push out the bullshit anyway. As a result the community would go into an uproar. They did it several times during alpha 1,2 and 3 and here we are during beta experiencing the same thing again. Each time they've done it the activity in the community dropped dramatically shortly after seeing the changes they put in were done so leaning too far to one extreme or the other.
  • As far as the implementation of schematics? There have been mixed views on it. I do feel there could've been a much more fun an immersive way to implement it, that wouldn't have been this overwhelmingly complicated thing that caused an already hurting community to lose so many people.
  • As far as omni factories go, people will always go for aiming to produce everything the most efficient way possible in a move to swallow up everyone else. Similar to the PVP front where you'll always have someone going for T5 everything.
  • As forth the entirety of this piece goes, it leans WAAAAY TOO FAR to one side and makes the game more grindy than it already is. Overall I think DU has hit a pivotal point in grindiness to actual gameplay and I'm sorry but schools of thought like this, while well meaning, only serve to drive more of the community away.
    • Examples that drove away the community during Alpha (and yes I understand it's alpha):
      • Implementing Industry for the first time with high costs
      • Implementing PVP with excessive bugs
      • Fixing bugs after nearly half a year of the community dealing with the most game breaking ones for both Industry and PVP
      • Locking every single element behind talents, thus preventing players from being able to test the game out at all
      • Implementing Talent system with excessive bugs that ATV attempted to point out.
      • NQ taking well over 3 months to drop the price of AMMO when both ATV and the growing pvp community told NQ within the first 2 weeks of PVP industry that the cost was far too high.
4 hours ago, Xennial said:

If you want a DU where it's not everyone running around in M /L ships then you adjust the difficulty of making and maintaining those ships appropriately. You naturally start this paradigm with Medium ship parts and up of all tiers. Make it so the average player has easy access to XS / S ship parts, containers to M for example. All Medium ship parts require uncommon sub components, all large advanced etc.

  • There's some merit here I feel but again... adjusting the difficulty is leaning far to deep into the extreme side. People who think adjusting the difficulty are missing the mark on making the game fun vs. more tedious. There needs to be more fun ways for people to engage in a difficult mechanic to entice them to venture down the road to begin with. If something isn't fun people will grind themselves into not wanting to play the game and as a result will unsubscribe.
  • Again... people are calling for the game to be more difficult will only find themselves playing this game alone. Eventually their own friends will walk away and will begin to see NQ close up shop because they went the route of making a "NOT FUN" subscription based game thinking everyone wants to sign up for a grind that yields very little FUN.
4 hours ago, Xennial said:

This entire concept ONLY works with 0 bots in the market. You need to frankly force people to sell their ore to other people. A game where people receive money every day for logging in NEVER has a cash flow problem. Quanta is a medium of exchange and it's value should be determined by the free market not some arbitrary idea that people have that you need XYZ 'faucets' for people to earn money. You can faze out the daily award as you add alternate ways for players to make the same given X effort per day. People have this bad habit of thinking the game has to provide $$ from heaven of the economy will fail. The 'value' of that money is not in it's generation but in how much the average player has and is thus willing to pay for things. That value can only be set by a free market where bots are not constantly perverting it's perceived value. .You only have to balance that daily cash against how fast you want schematics to be bought. You have the nanocrafter in the game to allow people to make XS ships anywhere without touching a market.

  • Let's identify the ways you're able to make money in the game if there were NO OTHER PLAYERS AROUND:
    • Daily rewards
    • Selling ores to bots
  • Because these 2 faucets are the only sources of income in the game, then when there ARE players around what will the sources be then? Other players? No, because there will be many greedy individuals looking to gobble up every known piece of quanta in the game and everyone will be too poor to buy anything. This will force people to once again go back to mining and making their own stuff.
  • AGAIN, leaning TOO FAR to one extreme or another here.
4 hours ago, Xennial said:

The only way DU will ever have a functional market is if people start to relate the time they spend mining to some value received. Why are goods sold at less then ore value now? Because you can mine at such a rate and haul so much so easily that no one perceives the value of that time spent. If most people were using the capacity of small ships , and medium or smaller containers to haul things around that time would have to weighed far more seriously because of the logistics of how long it would take to bring that 2Kt you just found worth of ore back to market 100t at a time and the time it will take for it to sell to other players given current demand / price.

  • Now THIS has some solid merit. If NQ implemented a suggested cost/value to the cargo onboard a ship that you aimed to sell on the markets that would help people identify a relative price they should sell their goods at on the markets. Not everyone is an economist and has degrees in the area. However, when people receive a suggestion from "On-high" they tend to go with what's suggested and place based on it. "Word of mouth" by way of NQ suggested prices based on calculated time spent flying/mining tends to go a long way potentially creating a legitimate economy.
4 hours ago, Xennial said:

Shift your thinking NQ from SP sandbox to MMO. L core ships should NOT be the norm. Even M ships should be purpose built major investments. If you do not shift your thinking on this I fear DU will forever be plagued by having to balance against everyone always having everything and XS/S even M ship parts being utterly worthless.

  • Similar to EVE... (A game that's been going 15+ years) and virtually every MMO out there, everyone in various aspects of the game will "Follow the meta". Balancing is a constant thing that occurs in every game with every new feature. So telling NQ to do X,Y,Z to prevent balancing is just going to fall on deaf ears.
  • As mentioned before, XS,S,M ships will prove to be far more viable come atmo pvp. As the weight of Ammo currently takes a toll on ships and their storage capability ships designed for atmo combat have to be designed with some serious considerations. Even with full T5 cargo talents the weight and volume of ammo in it's current state takes up vast portions of storage room and with both core locked weapons and surface area chance to hit, forces pvpers to design ships that are actual ships and not blocks of bullshit with tons of weapons all over.
  • Once energy mechanics come in, you're going to see a difference in how ships are built and how long they take to be finished.
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0.23 was the feature that made the game excessively difficult for many but not all. My personal view is that NQ needs to be focusing on adding features to the game that make it fun and enjoyable for the community to even have the energy to get involved in.

"There's no where to go but up from here"

I'm going to make this claim:
If NQ doesn't push to make this game fun, to offset the difficulties they've created it will not survive long after launch.

Many people don't like coming home from work to do more work. It's what won't make money for NQ's DU to survive as a game. The only thing left to do would be to sell the technology and close up shop and move on to the next project.

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12 minutes ago, Demlock said:

0.23 was the feature that made the game excessively difficult for many but not all. My personal view is that NQ needs to be focusing on adding features to the game that make it fun and enjoyable for the community to even have the energy to get involved in.

"There's no where to go but up from here"

I'm going to make this claim:
If NQ doesn't push to make this game fun, to offset the difficulties they've created it will not survive long after launch.

Many people don't like coming home from work to do more work. It's what won't make money for NQ's DU to survive as a game. The only thing left to do would be to sell the technology and close up shop and move on to the next project.

This is a really good point. Several planned features that have been mentioned involve more overhead and cost to what we're doing now (energy management, the quality of tiles in territory warfare). I think it will be important in future releases to provide a better balance of new content to enjoy vs. additional overhead and limitations on current functionality.

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6 hours ago, Xennial said:

I feel that many can't see the forest through the trees as it relates to a wipe even perhaps NQ. When I say wipe I mean the only thing that can be retained is skill points and empty blueprints (magic blue prints negates a big point to a wipe in the first place). Also a wipe MUST come with 0 bots active in the market save to sell schematics.

 

The question of to wipe or not has 0 to do with 'fairness'. Anyone can objectively see groups will have advantage in any system related to the scale of their operation. Solo players who crying foul is just a rehash of the casual vs hardcore gamer arguments found in EVERY MMO. To be blunt any such concerns of it being unfair that 100 players can achieve or access more content then 1 or 10 can simply be dismissed.

 

What NQ need to considers is what they want DU to be. Do they want to spend the next 12 months having to balance everything against the norm of everyone flying around in invincible M -> L core 'luxury' ships , tricked out with T5 everything? Do they want there to be any place in the universe for XS or S ships? When my org thinks to build a hauler they think in terms of how many KT they want to haul as a standard metric. Whats the point of XS, S , or even M weapon systems or ships in a universe filled with L core battle boats? 

 

I know I know, energy system will solve all that!! No they won't. It is common place for people to use M or L cores "just because I can". What happens when the population is threatened with the idea that "gasp" they might have to replace the elements after casually smashing into the ground because they never learned to fly because gold scrap was everywhere? They explode in outrage of course! Never did it occur to anyone that these over-engineered ships might actually someday cost something to maintain because it never dawned on them these are supposed to be capital ships.

 

Why NQ should wipe:

 

You want a wipe, then wipe for the right purpose, to overhaul the progression curve from SP sandbox to an actual MMO. The schematic prices in 0.23 were fine. If anything the non finished product schematic prices were to low, and the finished far to high. You want someone to specialize in screws, then you need to not setup the price structure that someone able to afford the end schematic would obviously be able to afford the sub parts. You could have also gone ahead and made the sub component part recopies not produce a gaggle at a time and have them take far longer to make. You want to break omni factories, then you have to break the efficiency found in setting one up in the first place. If I need 100 machines to produce the number of screws needed to make 1 large engine per day(extreme example), I'm going to seriously ask myself if it's not far more efficient and cost effective for me to buy the end assemblers to make 10 per day if I buy the screws from other players on the market. You do this by making the end assembly comparatively far cheaper to set up compared to actually supplying that industry time/cost wise with parts to keep it running. This spurs people to make the sub parts as a business and prevents even groups from being able to just outright out produce the little guy in end products. 

 

To extend this the little guys could then actually afford to setup end assemblers and make their stuff for themselves affordably. The industrialists would all be competing against each other on sub component parts. The crafty businessman would be making deals for bulk orders on sub parts to establish a profitable line of end products. Then there would be more people making end products then 'industrialists' holding mega factories just to produce enough screws etc to keep the market demand supplied. The little guy who just wants to start in industry then has a place because even though his screw factory line might only pump out 10 screws per day, their value is maintained. He doesn't have to feel like he has to make Tier 5 military engines to even find a profit margin.

 

If you want a DU where it's not everyone running around in M /L ships then you adjust the difficulty of making and maintaining those ships appropriately. You naturally start this paradigm with Medium ship parts and up of all tiers. Make it so the average player has easy access to XS / S ship parts, containers to M for example. All Medium ship parts require uncommon sub components, all large advanced etc. I know people will flat panic at the idea of not being able to cart around 10Kt of ore effortlessly. With 0 bots the ore prices would stabilize such that even mining in small ships would be profitable. The orgs trying to stay 'self sustaining' would find themselves fighting an uphill battle against the participation of many more actors of all sizes in the market forcing them to ask is it really worth the expense to make our own end goods when we simply can't find some major market edge because we can't produce screws or whatnot any cheaper then mass offered on the market from the general populous can. 

 

This entire concept ONLY works with 0 bots in the market. You need to frankly force people to sell their ore to other people. A game where people receive money every day for logging in NEVER has a cash flow problem. Quanta is a medium of exchange and it's value should be determined by the free market not some arbitrary idea that people have that you need XYZ 'faucets' for people to earn money. You can faze out the daily award as you add alternate ways for players to make the same given X effort per day. People have this bad habit of thinking the game has to provide $$ from heaven of the economy will fail. The 'value' of that money is not in it's generation but in how much the average player has and is thus willing to pay for things. That value can only be set by a free market where bots are not constantly perverting it's perceived value. .You only have to balance that daily cash against how fast you want schematics to be bought. You have the nanocrafter in the game to allow people to make XS ships anywhere without touching a market.

 

The only way DU will ever have a functional market is if people start to relate the time they spend mining to some value received. Why are goods sold at less then ore value now? Because you can mine at such a rate and haul so much so easily that no one perceives the value of that time spent. If most people were using the capacity of small ships , and medium or smaller containers to haul things around that time would have to weighed far more seriously because of the logistics of how long it would take to bring that 2Kt you just found worth of ore back to market 100t at a time and the time it will take for it to sell to other players given current demand / price.

 

Shift your thinking NQ from SP sandbox to MMO. L core ships should NOT be the norm. Even M ships should be purpose built major investments. If you do not shift your thinking on this I fear DU will forever be plagued by having to balance against everyone always having everything and XS/S even M ship parts being utterly worthless. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with everything you suggested. My stance on this whole subject is very straight forward. Wipe and Lock outs are game killing. NQ did not listen at first and look at the backlash 0.23 caused. 
 

Want a market? Make it so everyone can make the basics but if you want to be able to make better exotic space engines than the other guys selling on the markets then that’s where the grind and work comes in. Many many system ideas to make craft quality happen. Only thing I would agree to have removed from the game to accommodate this is put down talents.

 

Edit: While on the subject of wipes, lock outs and 0.23 my message to NQ is this. “Only fools make the same mistake twice”

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It erks me to no end that the ATV people outright TOLD NQ the problems of the patch. Said what needed to get addressed and NQ didn't listen, and went ahead with their plans anyway.

 

Then AFTER the community said "Fuck this shit" and started mass exodus the game

NQ back peddled on the stuff ATV said to back down on. Like NQ:

 

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU LISTEN THE FIRST DAMN TIME?!?!?!?

 

Then pushed out a statement saying "We heard you".... no they did not.

NQ only listened when people started to unsubscribe and NQ started to lose money.

 

The sequence of events unfolding couldn't be more "Bass Ackwards"...

 

Like seriously NQ is only listening to the things they want to hear.

Catering to a niche carebear crowds when the larger portion of the community stays silent because they don't feel like writing full length articles on what sucks and why.

Thinking the game needs to be made harder and BARELY HAVE A GRASP ON HOW TO MAKE MONEY BY MAKING A GAME FUN.

If you wanted a true simulator then put that into your description in the game so that you draw in the crowd that buys into a simulator.

 

The PvPers... the THOUSANDS OF PVPers who want to spend money on a game that offers fun and challenge (NOT TEDIOUSNESS) will go to games that are WORTH spending their money on.

 

OTHERWISE, save your game by adding shit that will draw in the crowd and make them want to play the game.

  1. T4 - T5 mega nodes in Asteroid belts PVP space only
  2. AVA - STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM LOCK AND FIRE, you will lose sooooo much interest if you do it that way
    1. There's barely much PVP going on now, applying AVA by way of lock and fire when the server is barely getting stressed out from ANY PVP in space today is just a cop out. Quit trying to take the most challenging path for NQ to develop for AVA and do it the same way it's always been done. A physical projectile being shot from one location and landing at another with AvA. All this calculation based AvA may seem nice on the beginning but by making the game less enjoyable/fun there will be less and less of it happening over all.
      Or
      If this is TOO much of a complication then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE find a better alternative to lock-n-fire shit. As it stands so many people are turned off by the way PVP is now. Having lock-n-fire first person shooter is just only going to add to one more reason to NOT play this game.
  3. Tractor beams and Harpoons and Interdiction for Warping ships
  4. Space anomalies to encourage exploration
  5. More wrecks rather than the crumbs we have today
  6. Ability for people to develop their own schematics to sell on the markets ( A FUN WAY TO MAKE THEM, instead of some overwhelmingly complex implementation that is AIDS to even bother getting into)
  7. 2 - 3 NEW SOLAR SYSTEMS

If NQ does this, then it will be the defibrillator NQ needs to bring the crowd back to the game and more money to be generated. HANDS DOWN.

Because there's nothing to do, people see no need to subscribe. It's causing less cashflow to get into the game and more people to walk away because they're pushing shit that makes the game worse and less fun.

 

Instead make shit that energizes people to play the game not want to gag on a baseball bat at the thought of having to mine to craft to indi to build to fly to .... ugh... fuckin hell ... to just do anything at all.

 

If there was 2 or 3 new solar systems in the game with exotic planets to check out, I'd happily command my people to gather the fleet for a "Great migration" to the new system. Fight anyone for the new elements and happily mine and craft and all the crap just because Flying for days and weeks just to explore somethign new is a LEGIT reason to stay in DU.

 

With PvP? I'd love to board someone else's ship at 5-10,000km/hr with harpoons and tractor beams. Pulling someone out of warp to kill the crew and take their stuff.

 

With exploration? IF WE HAD deep space probing abilities and better notifications about random celestial events to give us a better heading of where shit is so we can explore it then yeah. I'd gather a crew to go explore the new thing.

 

With T4-T5 mega nodes on Asteroids? OMG would you see some heavy activity in the community.

but with what they've done? there's literally ZERO reason to play... ZERO reason to fight... ZERO reason to even bother doing anything in the game.

 

Those 7 points above = CONTENT that the community is unable to and unwilling to try and create themselves. NQ needs to do it or people will trickle out the door more and more.

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People asking for a wipe now are nothing but selfishly motivated. Majority of cases is to give them an advantage over what they have now.

 

The people asking for no wipe are not doing so because they are rich and powerful, they are asking for no wipe because they have spent hundreds of hours and every possible quanta they own on building beautiful things.

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57 minutes ago, Demlock said:

With T4-T5 mega nodes on Asteroids? OMG would you see some heavy activity in the community.

Ahhahaha. Maybe. More realistically, the super orgs would make a non aggression pact to share them and all the smaller fry who tried to get some would get ganged up on by the supers.

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Quote
  • The point of smaller sized ships comes with boons that L core ships do not possess:
    • L core ships accelerate slower (typically) and legitimate PVP l-core ships will not be seen in atmospheric areas.
    • XS,S and Medium core ships are easier to make atmo capable and the smaller sized ships are able to act as faster haulers vs the mediums (if properly designed)
    • When Energy mechanics come into the light I'm almost certain we'll see the field shift to ship designs take on a more thoughtful approach vs. the brick shits you see today.
    • For those who build the luxury ships means they put in the hundreds to thousands of game hours scanning, mining and refining and crafting the T5 everything to have that ship. As you mentioned earlier there's ALWAYS going to be people who will push for the absolute best of everything. The matter of balancing is a common denominator across all MMOs.  

There are no boons smaller ships provide over M/L ships. Name me a game mechanic where that is the case that is actually in the game. You are hanging your hat on the idea that the energy system is going to overcome this. The only way I see any energy mechanic making smaller core ships viable is if larger ships are literally forced to be engineered large by requiring them to X number of heavy generators , thus forcing their engineering up scale. This could be accomplished today by making the core itself absurdly heavy for a M or L core. You would have to engineer a L core differently if it weighed 10Kt by itself. Any combat system where L core outranges / single shots smaller ships makes smaller ships unviable in combat situations. Most games take a more naval warfare approach to this. A Battleship in WoWS for instance is very slow with big guns that turn slowly. The battleship actually fears the small destroyer because that small destroyer has a weapon system that can sink the battleship and maneuver advantages that make it very hard to hit. This typical scale representation in a wargame is non existent in DU. I can effectively take that battleship main gun , strap some engines to it on a L core, make it highly maneuverable and gain all the advantages small ships are supposed to have with the advantages afford the large weapons.   

 

I didn't say people shouldn't be able to have luxury ships, I said at the rate things are going those will be common place not something achieved by all the effort you describe here. There is no 'balancing' if everyone skips small ships. There is nothing currently that prevents an L core being engineered to go into atmo. I can't even imagine with the client/server setup they are using how atmo combat would be anything other then L cores raining death to anything while floating around with AGG. 

 

Quote
  • Let's identify the ways you're able to make money in the game if there were NO OTHER PLAYERS AROUND:
    • Daily rewards
    • Selling ores to bots
  • Because these 2 faucets are the only sources of income in the game, then when there ARE players around what will the sources be then? Other players? No, because there will be many greedy individuals looking to gobble up every known piece of quanta in the game and everyone will be too poor to buy anything. This will force people to once again go back to mining and making their own stuff.
  • AGAIN, leaning TOO FAR to one extreme or another here.

 

This right here is where the disconnect on the economy comes from. People seem to think $$ must rain from the sky in some form or another while we walk around the game world. You don't need 'faucets'. Daily rewards inject the cash, the free market would then decided the value of said cash. If everyone only had the daily injection then the prices would be based off that standard if there was no bot interference. People would price their time spent in game based on this and thus the only thing that would fluctuate over time is how much that 100k or whatever per day would buy you. People say "add more ways to make money". Thats not the problem of the economy. Different ways to 'grind' more money is just a different way to get a daily award that happens to require you to do a task first.

 

Selling ore to bots is not even a faucet as it takes something out of the game in exchange for the quanta it poofs into reality. I would argue every single time someone sells to a bot , that is gameplay being sold out of the game. That is ore that did not go to another player to make something with. That is money that other player didn't have to 'spend' in the market to acquire said ore. I won't even argue the whole finite resource being thrown out the window because we all know they will make infinite resources with asteroids / automated mining. What is really being sold however is gameplay and free market forces.

 

Of course people view the game as a grind. The bots are perpetually shoveling quanta with no value into the game. The player base is perpetually chasing a goal post that is forever moving. The more effort people put into the grind, the more sums of money become worthless. You have runaway inflation built on the back of mining that every scoop you take and sell to a bot actually makes your grind worse. The devs will have to constantly think of more and more expensive ways to try and exit quanta from the game. Why was a warp beacon schem priced at 11 BILLION quant? Because people actually HAVE that much money. 

 

That being said, I do agree that schematic price walling industry was certainly not the best approach. Running costs to industry and adjusting the time/quantity of sub components produced would have likely been superior ways of going about "nudging" people away from omni factories.

 

Quote

Lol... imagine paying a sub fee for an MMO where you specialize in screws. Seriously? I know of no player that wants to specialize in screws. Frankly I know of no player that wants to specialize in any singular thing with exclusion of specialization in other areas.

Here is a not seeing the forest through the trees example. Basically EVERY MMO out there forces you to specialize via some 'class' system. You missed the entire reason I used screws as an example. Engaging in industry at scale is about making industrial gameplay more rewarding to the player and the player base as a whole. It's not about "I want to make everything all in one building , by myself". If people were setting up industry with the mindset first that it's another way to make money in game and engage with the player economy then it doesn't matter what they are mass producing. The fact that people only think in terms of industry means I make 200 different finished products so we never have to buy anything, rather then I engage in industry to interface with the market is the root problem they tried to address in 0.23.

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Xennial said:

That being said, I do agree that schematic price walling industry was certainly not the best approach. Running costs to industry and adjusting the time/quantity of sub components produced would have likely been superior ways of going about "nudging" people away from omni factories.

This round 2 of nudging ahead in form of energy. Also, eventualy -- [relative] ore scarcity, that will make it harder from smaller actors, who not having decent in-house mining ops.


Serious quantities of SZ T1s is now burned to bots, while its still a lot of it, it will be noticeble with time.

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The following is strictly my opinion. I hold absolutely no weight inside NQ nor do I believe I have any influence over their decision making. I also do not claim to know about what goes on behind the scenes as far as decisions are made. Alpha Team Vanguard is the furthest extent of my knowledge that could be considered outside the public eye.

 

TLDR at the bottom.

 

 

No wipe until after beta and before release or unless there is something seriously holding the game back from further development. Those are the only scenarios where I see it acceptable to perform a full wipe and planet reset.

 

I also maintain my position that a subscription beta was a terrible idea and that whomever put it forward may have put Dual Universe and by extension NovaQuark in jeopardy. I don't say it to be dramatic, but if we were still in an alpha like state where people simply bought into the testing phase and with BIG LETTERS told to expect things like bugs, glitches, incomplete content, and the occasional wipe, I feel it would have better set expectations and people would be way more tempered in their opinions.

 

We should be beta TESTING, a 'soft launch' should have never, ever been in the cards regardless of the financial situation. When I heard NQ stating that we'd be 'soft launching', I immediately questioned what happened to NQ's interoperation of the alpha and beta phases being proper test phases and not things like steam early access where the game was basically 'released' while not actually in its release (v1.0) state.

 

How NQ handles its ATV team is regrettable. I don't feel like an advance tester with an opinion that will be considered along with fellow ATV testers. Suggestions for how these test s should be handled in various instances have gone unanswered for months or are given some half solution that doesn't do much in the way of assisting with the testing process, hence my involvement in said testing is minimal.

 

If I was not leading my own organization.

If I was not a lifetime subscription holder.

If I was not ATV.

If I was not a moderator of the official discord.

 

I don't think I'd be here right now. Yeah, weird flex on basically the entire community I know, don't tell me.

 

All of that (somehow) fell into my lap because I was here for the kickstarter, and every time I log in, I wonder 'why me'? All I saw was a great game that I really wanted to be a part of. You beta testers that just plopped $20 down probably see those four things as a lot to loose and to some, maybe it is. Now flip that view and see things from my perspective, for all you beta testers with only $20 on the line and nothing to loose except enough for dinner for one, a few months time, and even some hopes and dreams, I'm surprised more of you haven't left already. If I was a new tester and was VR'ing around and looking at all the amazing stuff people have already created, forget the economics of it all. If all that was subject to a wipe from players that felt like they were behind the curve, I wouldn't bother subscribing until after release.

 

Ever since beta launched, we've been bumbling and stumbling around like drunks after last call.

 

I am forgiving of all the bugs we're experiencing. Alpha has sharpened me on that. Beta has not turned out how I thought it would. To be fair, alpha didn't either, but we're beyond that now... aren't we?

 

Am I dissapointed, yes. Am I still here though, yeah, I am. Do I have my complaints and grievances, I do. Will I air them, sure, if NovaQuark wants to hear them, most definitely. Do I think they'll listen, to me or anyone else, no.

 

Hope yall enjoyed my word vomit, that's all it probably is anyways. Cheers.

 

 

TLDR:

I think I'm a sepshul person in the community? (atv, discord mod, lifetime sub...... somehow)

Beta is a catastrophe

I'm unhappy with NQ and ATV

Things would be different if we were still testing and not a paid beta

NQ said alpha and beta would be proper testing phases and not early access

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The below is part of the reason why some people are asking for a wipe: the unfair advantages accrued in the first week of Beta that only Alpha players could access.

Quote

NQ didn’t listen when people told them to remove the bot orders from the get go, they left them on soft beta release. This in conjunction with leaked information on the location of wrecks (very unbalanced and unfair) and leaked information to a selected few on other matters, including but not limited to ore locations and prices, lead to an unprecedented rush that made a few people extremely wealthy by day 2 of soft release. Now, NQ claimed that some of us where exaggerating the amount of wealth and made a vague statement claiming it wasn’t much and everyone was going to be reset to 50 million. What NQ didn’t say was that they only accounted for the Quantas and not the assets (and that I can prove, as my assets weren’t touch), couple with, yet again, more leaked information to a selected few, made some stack up on billions of hard assets by day 4-5. So they took the money sure.....they didn’t touch the assets, meaning some had enough factories, equipment and everything you can think off to play the rest of their lives without a care. Add that money was also moved prior to the cap to alts and players (50 million a piece), and some people having 6-10 alts, well, you do the math.

Also

Quote

You know how some corps own 50- tiles on various planets? All done on week 1 before the flood gates open to the public, with the dirty money before it was capped, and that didn’t get remove either. People knew the money was going to be remove a day before it happened...... Admitting to that would really bury them as it it make it clear that only a selected few get the info before hand, on everything....they will never do it.

 

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I have to ask a question to all who say "no wipe now but a wipe after beta". What is the point of playing then? Why should we pay 21/3 months until then, to see it all gone? You have to keep in mind that at this stage - we can mine - and mine more - and slowly develop our bases, ships, from recent patch - schematics library,  our plans, etc. Yes, we can "test" features which are coming, but after today's video by JC, we can "test" new graphics, possibly 1-2 pvp features, hopefully good ones, but that is a test which requires minutes or hours, not everyday gaming thing. Asteroids seem quite good. Missions too - initially. Asking for a wipe after beta leads to people losing the will to play now, and it means the will PAY now. 

 

Missions - after today's post they seem awesome, but they will after a week or so become obvious "fly from A to B", which we can do without missions even now. I havent seen/heard ANY indication of PVE which is damn vital for the health of this game. Give us options how we spend time in Your product, people will be in game 24/7. Narrow it to traveling and mining with ship building only to do traveling and mining and people will get bored. Missions do add money to the flow, yes, so they help remedy the schematics wall.

 

Asteroids - someone mentioned they should be only locations with t5 megas - that would be a copy/paste of a "Curse of Ark/Atlas": you are in a mega corp or you dont exist.  If done in that form/shape, that would be a hard limit on any attempt to solo play or small group play the game. Remember, small groups can make exactly the same ship like megas can - it just requires more time/effort, but they cant replace them ANYWHERE near as fast.  And that is not to mention the difference in numbers, which is not NQ's problem. No one can/or should force NQ to limit the number of ships near asteroids in order to give a chance to solo players/small groups. But as much as I am against "catering players" to stay in game no matter what, "solo" players and "small groups" are vital for subs and for health of the game - not everyone is willing to play in a mega. At the moment, solo players can get to distant planets in pvp zone, get some small amounts of t5 and get out. The small amounts they get gives them a sense of "progress" and "achievement" while, regarding economy, that small amount changes nothing compared to what megas can. It would become another wall for them if you introduce such "limits" to asteroids.

 

We need security and we need stability. We need to be allowed to play the game we love without a looming threat that tomorrow everything will be gone, as, again, this game is not an early access beta where you pay a sum of X Euro once and get to "test" the game to achieve an advantage in knowledge over others. This is a game where we pay monthly and we should keep things after release, as "beta" was, by all means - a release. There should be a formal statement coming from NQ which will let us know if the beta will end up with a wipe or not, as soon as possible, and before we renew our subscriptions.

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7 hours ago, Emptiness said:

Ahhahaha. Maybe. More realistically, the super orgs would make a non aggression pact to share them and all the smaller fry who tried to get some would get ganged up on by the supers.

Do you really think we all sit in one discord server and plan how to make life a living hell for smaller groups? 

 

DSI and NG generally hate Empire so they wont group. We at BOO just want someone to actually fight us so why should we group?

 

It really is the most bullshit excuse that the big orgs are all trying to form a blue doughnut no fun cartel. 

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3 minutes ago, Noddles said:

Do you really think we all sit in one discord server and plan how to make life a living hell for smaller groups? 

 

DSI and NG generally hate Empire so they wont group. We at BOO just want someone to actually fight us so why should we group?

 

It really is the most bullshit excuse that the big orgs are all trying to form a blue doughnut no fun cartel. 

You are jumping the gun with your conclusions. Your company craves PVP now and I respect it. After 2-3 months, and after enough losses, one side will seek alliance. After getting enough allies, they might become a threat, and you will counter that diplomacy by making your alliances, its only logical. Result, for a solo bystander is exactly what the man who you replied to said. One big blob to which you are KOS, or other big blob to which you are KOS.

 

EvE was an excellent teacher to human behaviour - in space:)

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