Jump to content
NQ-Naerais

“Marketplace Heist” Response

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, iNFiDeL said:

This is ridiculous NQ, so when it happens to you bans are thrown to the accused but when it happens to us who cares right?

And on top of that, all these guys got was some honeycomb and assorted decorative items, not even any decent items - it's ridiculous!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Vifrevaert said:

And on top of that, all these guys got was some honeycomb and assorted decorative items, not even any decent items - it's ridiculous!

You wouldn't have even bothered probably - you get better loot from players eh....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@blazemonger Yes, I had eyes wide open when learning that orders have been deleted with the markets hubs, less with the RDMS issue. This should not happen, Aphelia is not a player like another, but we're not aware of how their system is made and there might be legitimate reasons behind this (I really hope so). This is still very concerning.
 

3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

NQ playing the victim here and trying their bad implementation and potential technical fallout on these guys is IMO extremely weak and uncalled for.

Saying this:

 

Spoiler

The destruction of the build isn’t a quick fix, and was clearly done knowing it shouldn't be.


Is really just trying very hard to justify your knee jerk reaction. Restoring the market _SHOULD_ be a quick fix. It should be a case of pasting back a market construct and restoring the links to the database in the backend. The removal of the construct should not have any impact on the player base and their possible buy/sell orders or items they had in the market containers (which seem to be entirely virtual anyway).

Trying to imply that he players deliberately destroyed the market knowing that NQ would have a tough time replacing it and for that very reason (which is what this quote basically says IMO) is at best unprofessional and shows a total lack of ownership by trying to make it all the player's fault. Sorry NQ, but you made a royal booboo here yourself as far as I see it.

I agree that NQ can't know what the players thought during the heist and this assumption is very ballzy. I don't know about how it happened in the players heads, we all saw the "pls no ban", did they realize it too late? At best, they did a big mistake, and got spanked hard by NQ. Was it too hard?

Appart from the time it took to replace the market, this issue could have been avoided and dev would have spend more time to fix other problems, the game has many problems right now that we're complaining daily and this heist just added more shit to the pile.
 

Spoiler

Maybe they are playing the current PoE league and they forgot which game they were playing 😂

 

Edited by Ater Omen
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read this thread from top to bottom now (ending at this point, whose to say what's happened in the time I've taken to write this), while my take is nothing special and has been said several times already, I'll offer it anyways:
 

2 hours ago, Ater Omen said:

While I find the heist inacceptable, I am shocked by the decision of permaban, a temporary ban (even long) would be better imo. Maybe this has been done to send a message to players for future abuses...

I'm inclined to agree with this statement particularly.

 

Was it in bad taste, I agree, it was. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that point.

 

The decision to leap straight to a permanent ban has me taken aback. I haven't seen anything personally, but I've heard plenty of reports about people's entire bases being stolen out from under them, even live right in front of them.

 

This blight went on for nary a time before NovaQuark finally gave us some guidance on the subject. People stealing your construct due to misconfigured RDMS is on the construct owner, and that such theft would not result in any action on behalf of NovaQuark.

 

Okay, I can understand pinning the blame on the player tester for misunderstanding the system or handing out permission willy nilly, or even setting perms to 'all', which now has a window advising players testers of the potential hazard. This, to me, is reasonable. The player tester needs to clean up their act and take it as a learning moment no matter how bitter the pill is to swallow.

 

I can even understand NovaQuarks position relating to interference with the game test. One of the marketplaces on Alioth was destroyed, and some player's testers orders were interrupted.

 

What I fail to understand here, is how NovaQuark can tell players testers who had their constructs "stolen" from them on account of faulty RDMS be given no action, only to turn around and permanently ban players testers for taking advantage of faulty RDMS on NovaQuarks own constructs.

 

It was also laid out a few days ago to that theft as a result of bad RDMS will not be actioned on by NovaQuark.

 

Did people's orders at the marketplace get interrupted, yes. 

Did a marketplace get destroyed by some players testers, yes. 

Did stuff get stolen and sold for profit, yes. 

Did some people get inconvenienced, yes.

 

Guess what:

Come atmospheric PVP and player-run markets, this kind of activity will be a daily fact of life which we'd all best get used to it.

 

Maybe for laughs, they even wrote out "Plz don't ban" in voxels when the crime was finally done. All right, perhaps it wasn't a new person that stumbled upon this but someone with experience that knew what they were doing, and the profit-seeking crime is premeditated. Instead of a seven-day ban, make it a thirty day one.

 

Sure, the beta experience got sullied, I agree. And while it was an NQ marketplace that got the wipe, it's not like it's the only marketplace on Alioth.

 

While I do agree the destruction was overboard, I think the response to this from NovaQuark was equally so. I believe NQ should take this as a learning experience, the players testers too, but more so NovaQuark. The players testers learned that no one is immune from bad RDMS, and NovaQuark probably learned a thing or two about marketplaces that should come in handy for the future feature of player-run marketplaces.

 

Dare I say we should celebrate this moment in Beta as "Hey remember that one time in Beta where a bunch of people tore apart a marketplace?" and we can all laugh around our campfire years after release...

 

Instead, what are we watching? A two-tiered justice system; rules for thee but not for me. I don't like it, not one bit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think something should be done in the end, but I think the justice served here outweighs the crime. Meanwhile, the justice other testers are seeking for the constructs that got stolen from them is being delayed if not denied entirely. If that was the case, we'd have a month-long backlog by now (to clarify, on that issue alone on top of everything we already have) sadly, NovaQuark is in no way treating equal actions with equal outcomes and consequences as far as this particular topic of theft goes. If we're being honest with ourselves, then scoopers, dupers, and exploiters would have already gotten the boot before this event even happened. No great Quanta reset, no publicly nerfing the ice cream scoops, just bans.

 

The fact that this scenario played out the way it did, it makes me question what is safe. If I'm questioning what is safe, that doesn't exactly make me want to test anything out of fear that I might end up in the same fate. Maybe the only winning move is not to play test?

 

In most circumstances, I can see and understand in NQ's favor on crime and punishment, but this is not one of those times. Sorry to say, but you do not have my support in this, and I've also been given some things to think about as a result of this. I don't think this topic has met its end, which is what I'm waiting for before I come to my definite conclusion. Know that I'm still just a user like anyone else commenting on this thread. I can't sway NQ's opinion in any manner, and that is not my intent with this post.

 

You have my thoughts and I'm curious to see what the future holds.

 

Oh, and I'm not joining anyone's protest or movement on any communication medium. I'm simply offering my opinion on the matter which is what these forums have allowed me to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, this is a shit show. You specifically set the rules;

"RDMS permissions and settings are the sole discretion of each player. We advise you take the time to get to know and understand the system and be cautious when making a construct or element usable by unknown players, including the use of your friends list. Not every player has your best interest at heart. We can not get involved with permission based theft, whether as an individual or an organization."

And then ban hammer because they followed them to the letter. Aphelia is an NPC. Even if you consider it NQ/Aphelia YOU LITERALLY SAY "We can not get involved with permission based theft, whether as an individual or an organization." It was done WITHOUT using an exploit! This is your FAILURE of a permission system swatting you in the face. You set the rules so everyone can get robbed blind if they make one little mistake in the perms. YOU COULDN'T EVEN COPY AND PASTE A MARKET WITHOUT MESSING UP THE PERMISSIONS! 

 

Your organization got RDMS raided. The PLAYER market got raided because of a REALLY bad design. As long as they did not use an exploit, they should not be banned. If the ban holds then refund every single RDMS raid. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Remove the entire ability for anyone to permission theft. If NQ cant set your own permission system correctly, its obviously a f'in floppy mess.

 

Maybe make a NEW rule its a perma ban for anyone in any way shape or form take market assets without buying/selling as intended. Along with no messing with NPC/Aphelia/NQ/SSPolice structures/assets.

Just like you did MANY other issues WHERE EXPLOITS WERE USED, learn and set rules, but let them go free.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, DarkHorizon said:

I've read this thread from top to bottom now (ending at this point, whose to say what's happened in the time I've taken to write this), while my take is nothing special and has been said several times already, I'll offer it anyways:
 

I'm inclined to agree with this statement particularly.

 

Was it in bad taste, I agree, it was. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that point.

 

The decision to leap straight to a permanent ban has me taken aback. I haven't seen anything personally, but I've heard plenty of reports about people's entire bases being stolen out from under them, even live right in front of them.

 

This blight went on for nary a time before NovaQuark finally gave us some guidance on the subject. People stealing your construct due to misconfigured RDMS is on the construct owner, and that such theft would not result in any action on behalf of NovaQuark.

 

Okay, I can understand pinning the blame on the player tester for misunderstanding the system or handing out permission willy nilly, or even setting perms to 'all', which now has a window advising players testers of the potential hazard. This, to me, is reasonable. The player tester needs to clean up their act and take it as a learning moment no matter how bitter the pill is to swallow.

 

I can even understand NovaQuarks position relating to interference with the game test. One of the marketplaces on Alioth was destroyed, and some player's testers orders were interrupted.

 

What I fail to understand here, is how NovaQuark can tell players testers who had their constructs "stolen" from them on account of faulty RDMS be given no action, only to turn around and permanently ban players testers for taking advantage of faulty RDMS on NovaQuarks own constructs.

 

It was also laid out a few days ago to that theft as a result of bad RDMS will not be actioned on by NovaQuark.

 

Did people's orders at the marketplace get interrupted, yes. 

Did a marketplace get destroyed by some players testers, yes. 

Did stuff get stolen and sold for profit, yes. 

Did some people get inconvenienced, yes.

 

Guess what:

Come atmospheric PVP and player-run markets, this kind of activity will be a daily fact of life which we'd all best get used to it.

 

Maybe for laughs, they even wrote out "Plz don't ban" in voxels when the crime was finally done. All right, perhaps it wasn't a new person that stumbled upon this but someone with experience that knew what they were doing, and the profit-seeking crime is premeditated. Instead of a seven-day ban, make it a thirty day one.

 

Sure, the beta experience got sullied, I agree. And while it was an NQ marketplace that got the wipe, it's not like it's the only marketplace on Alioth.

 

While I do agree the destruction was overboard, I think the response to this from NovaQuark was equally so. I believe NQ should take this as a learning experience, the players testers too, but more so NovaQuark. The players testers learned that no one is immune from bad RDMS, and NovaQuark probably learned a thing or two about marketplaces that should come in handy for the future feature of player-run marketplaces.

 

Dare I say we should celebrate this moment in Beta as "Hey remember that one time in Beta where a bunch of people tore apart a marketplace?" and we can all laugh around our campfire years after release...

 

Instead, what are we watching? A two-tiered justice system; rules for thee but not for me. I don't like it, not one bit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think something should be done in the end, but I think the justice served here outweighs the crime. Meanwhile, the justice other testers are seeking for the constructs that got stolen from them is being delayed if not denied entirely. If that was the case, we'd have a month-long backlog by now (to clarify, on that issue alone on top of everything we already have) sadly, NovaQuark is in no way treating equal actions with equal outcomes and consequences as far as this particular topic of theft goes. If we're being honest with ourselves, then scoopers, dupers, and exploiters would have already gotten the boot before this event even happened. No great Quanta reset, no publicly nerfing the ice cream scoops, just bans.

 

The fact that this scenario played out the way it did, it makes me question what is safe. If I'm questioning what is safe, that doesn't exactly make me want to test anything out of fear that I might end up in the same fate. Maybe the only winning move is not to play test?

 

In most circumstances, I can see and understand in NQ's favor on crime and punishment, but this is not one of those times. Sorry to say, but you do not have my support in this, and I've also been given some things to think about as a result of this. I don't think this topic has met its end, which is what I'm waiting for before I come to my definite conclusion. Know that I'm still just a user like anyone else commenting on this thread. I can't sway NQ's opinion in any manner, and that is not my intent with this post.

 

You have my thoughts and I'm curious to see what the future holds.

 

Oh, and I'm not joining anyone's protest or movement on any communication medium. I'm simply offering my opinion on the matter which is what these forums have allowed me to do.

All those who talk about incorrectly configured rights, for some reason do not think that there is a method of hacking RDMS, for example, the rights were configured correctly and the attackers forged these rights, this can be? is this considered an exploit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

The players responsible for the destruction of the market have been permanently banned from Dual Universe, and all salvaged materials and assets gained will be removed without compensation.
 

Counterpoint: Pressing 'b' is not an exploit. Get over yourself and fix your own game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, DarkHorizon said:

 

 

What I fail to understand here, is how NovaQuark can tell players testers who had their constructs "stolen" from them on account of faulty RDMS be given no action, only to turn around and permanently ban players testers for taking advantage of faulty RDMS on NovaQuarks own constructs.

 

It was also laid out a few days ago to that theft as a result of bad RDMS will not be actioned on by NovaQuark.

 

Did people's orders at the marketplace get interrupted, yes. 

Did a marketplace get destroyed by some players testers, yes. 

Did stuff get stolen and sold for profit, yes. 

Did some people get inconvenienced, yes.

 

 

THIS. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

An important aspect we are considering in all cases and investigations is intention. The intention behind this destruction is very clear to us. The players involved did not report this bug to us, but instead simply filled their pockets. Had this stopped with a single voxel removed it would be a different story.  This is, at its core, a violation of the EULA and against the intentions of beta. We have been as understanding as we can until this point, but there must be a line.

All is there, there is no ban because someone just press B


They also come with many cargo ship, and stole as many voxel as they can.

At least this unlucky experience also show that community realy change since alpha, and now a part of the community think that bug exploit is OK, and they will try to justify themself with realy poor argument

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"An important aspect we are considering in all cases and investigations is intention. The intention behind this destruction is very clear to us."

 

Yeah, that line also bothered me. Because all I see here is an assumption. And you know the old saying about when you "assume" something.

All this line tells me is that their "investigation" was limited to seeing what happened and straight up casting their verdict. That line pretty much says that they never even bothered getting their side of the story at all. A perma-ban sent out on nothing but preliminairy observations. There was nothing done to get a "clear idea on their intentions". So I'm calling BS on that entire line. Try again NQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

The players involved did not report this bug to us, but instead simply filled their pockets

This doesn't sound like a supposition but like a fact
I mean, if (for exemple) they came with cargo, put the voxel/elements inside, and come back to there base, and repeat 20 times the operations... it's far far away from, they get ban because they have press B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair, the original complaints never proved that the players in question had no RDMS. There were screenshots of players but no way to prove what they were really doing or whether they had permissions. On the other hand... at the market there was no doubt the players were out of line as at no time would they have been given the authority to do what they did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will there be any input from Novaquark team here? I understand, that during unpopular decision "manufacturer" should not get into "argument" with "customer" to avoid further complications, but this moment can be one of those moments that will turn history of Dual Universe into complete *sheep* if you know what I mean. This also can have a bad effect on the testers who would not want to expose themselves to the the possibility of being banned from the game by testing game mechanics. Which will result into either delaying of the game release, or repeating the story with Last Oasis which was very promising during Alpha, somehow promising during Beta and complete shit show after release. As a result - the game is dead. 

 

With respect for now, 

~Vintersen 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Orangeferret said:

Counterpoint: Pressing 'b' is not an exploit. Get over yourself and fix your own game.

Counterpoint: Dismantling an NPC Market hub most definitely is an exploit and at no point during the heist should these players have thought this was anything but a bug that they were exploiting. Any claim otherwise is just guilty children using the ignorance excuse to gain sympathy so that their parents won't punish them. The permaban is unfortunate but necessary to prevent this kind of behavior in the future. The offenders may even get the chance to play again after Beta if they are lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NQ messed up and allowed people to be able to take apart the market place. Its sad to see NQ have such a heavy handed and emotional reaction considering how many people have lost things due to RDMS problems and or not knowing how it worked/forgetting it was set. We need the community to continue growing this is not the way to bring new players in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, NQ-Naerais said:

An important aspect we are considering in all cases and investigations is intention. The intention behind this destruction is very clear to us. The players involved did not report this bug to us, but instead simply filled their pockets. Had this stopped with a single voxel removed it would be a different story.  This is, at its core, a violation of the EULA and against the intentions of beta. We have been as understanding as we can until this point, but there must be a line.

 

This right here bothers me a lot. Specially the bolded line. Countless ships and bases have been completely stolen from under people’s feet, some while the players are right there unable to stop it, and nothing is done but when it’s this case, the ban hammer drops.......

And again, it’s that line alone that did it for me. If they don’t ban everyone that have been abusing exploits, bugs etc, they can’t ban this one guy. Hypocrisy at it best because in all other cases they didn’t stop at a few voxels either, they took everything. 
I guess the dumpster fire just got a hell of a lot bigger.

 

Prime example right here, where are the bans and the compensation for this player?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are talking "stuff" to dev who need more than 2 months to
-"we need to think about low framerate market cause people making their own market in each market" 
instead of a simple : "players market on markets are not allowed and will be punished/destroyed/moved out"

Remember devs refused official AD sign on markets,  and allow players making personnal market thats take a third of the parking to divide framerate by 10 on market, i guess its fun.

 

now people like me can't use market since a week because of network thing, but its ok, "they are on it" like personnal player market on market i guess, cya in 2 months.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Scoob!

 

All I'm seeing here is  bunch of cry babies who got banned for cheating and being down right trolls. 

 


You claim you wanted to make a point??? Then why not build a massive structure onto the existing market? Maybe your own market.. You know make your organization have a all time grasp on that location. 

 

I can almost guarantee you if you had left the NQ stuff alone... (You know like proper adults would.)  and maybe had built something that benefited other players gaming experience instead of ruining it. ( Market orders )

 

You COULD have shown NQ that this player base has their back. You OCULD have shown them that you're here to help them test this dream project of theirs, make it better. You COULD have shown them that they can trust you more experienced "testers" with the game and its future bugs and issues. That you're there to help with these bugs and issues.. Not make them worse. Exploit them. 

 

 

 So entitled you guys are to think that you were done wrong by wronging someone first. I don't give two craps about how you feel or don't feel about this perma ban. it was well deserved. If this was my baby... My life dream project. Id kick that negativity to the curb as well! Who the hell wants to work with ANYONE who doesn't have your back!?? Ask your self that scooby. 

 

 

Could you have built onto the market and made it better? Maybe you know... built yourself a cool building or market of your own next to the NQ stuff? Maybe the devs would have seen that you added to the game in a positive way and left it. As a relic to a bug worth fixing? Maybe just maybe this could have been a awesome positive point in DU history. With your organizations legacy for ever written in stone. 

 

But nope.. Ya didnt... 

 

You decided to be a bunch of spoilt brats, trolls, kids, what ever you want to call it.... You decided you wanted to cause hell and now they've paid the price for the hell they've caused. 

 

We all have choices in life. Sometimes ask yourself... is this a good choice? Would this make me happy if I was the on the other side?  Am I being a A**-hole? Am willing to pay the price if this goes wrong? 

 

I have no sympathy for trolls that get hammered. Especially those who know better.

 

The word "Intention"

 

You could have had the right intentions... But you didn't. That's why you got banned. 

 

"Disappointing" 

 

Case closed. See ya! Won't miss ya.

 

*****************************************************************************************************

And I bet if it wasn't for those damn pesky kids you'd have all gotten away with it too eh'? @Scooby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

relying on common sense (" It doesn’t take a rocket scientist (though we know there are a few of you out there) to understand that the markets are not a community construction") really is NOT the way to go here. I mean heck, it's the internet. And to be fair: if it really was not an exploit and only using...common mechanics... including RDMS fails on NQs part then this whole "use your common sense" thing falls apart. That's just how ppl are - if it's possible, they'll do it.

There's a reason laws have hundreds of pages (here the law for regulating traffic has 540 pages). You have to write everything down which is or is not allowed.

 

I say this for years now but obviously that's not enough. NQs head seems to be thicker than stone so things like this have to happen in order for them to understand

 

How about writing a consistent, useful, easy to understand EULA/TOS?

 

So imho:

- without a well written EULA this ban is unjustified

- with it, there wouldn't be ANY reason to talk about this because it would be crystal clear that it was a bannable offence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lethys said:

How about writing a consistent, useful, easy to understand EULA/TOS?

And people who "by common sense" must be like banned-quartered-then-banned-again, are walking completly free with full pockets and probably having a great fun reading this tread.

 

Thing is, noboby care about those guys in particular too much, but what irretated masses is obvious NQ inconsistency. They super soft when almost begged to do some justice and examplary harsh when its not that nessesary.

 

Its like medieval history disaster recipy with bad laws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

And people who "by common sense" must be like banned-quartered-then-banned-again, are walking completly free with full pockets and probably having a great fun reading this tread.

and that's exactly the point tho - it wasn't clear up until they did give out those new rules. from that point on it's bannable.

 

likewise here: they did the stoopid (which was inevitable). NQ should've rewritten the rules and from that point on bann anyone who did it again

 

So again:

 

Maybe we can get a good EULA now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...