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Why PVP is important to the game.


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Well, no that I have your attention, yes I do think that PVP and specifically combat PVP is important to DU. It is not vital but it is important, if not very important.

For Combat PVP to work it is required that the mechanics that drive it are stable, solid, balanced and well tested.

 

In that regard I think two things that I expect will happen and/or we know will happen are vital

 

1. Asteroids and Asteroid Mining

For this to be a good driver in combat PVP, it will need to first _actually work_ and in a live service game where there is hordes of bloodthirsty players who are craving their shot of pewpew, testing this mechanic outside of safe zones is a risk. Keeping the mechanic safe at least initially makes absolute sense even when it means  that the pewpew will need to wait.

 

Asteroid mining wil need to be lucrative, flawless and worth the risk for those that want to get the goods to venture in to PVP space. If the value of the mechanic is not established or if attempt to get to them is quickly bashed in by pewpew flotillas camping these sites they will die a quick death. I'm sorry you guys, but the pewpew will need to wait

 

2. TW in space

Could this be a ploy by NQ to tick the TW box and move planet side TW beyond release as they will do what they must to hit release end of the year and will push out what they can to get there? Of course that is possible and frankly not outside of the possible outcomes.

 

I think and hope it more likely NQ wants to be able to gather data and get experience wit the core mechanics in a more controlled environment which is PVP space. This intermediate stage would mean a better way to test and control ECM and shielding, an initial option to test base and tile defenses. Frankly, from a game design perspective it makes sense. 

 

 

Overall, NQ once more shows their lack of understanding the need to set clear expectations and drive understanding of their choices through clear communication. It's almost funny to see how some of the things they say they have understood and will need to do better going forward are already thrown out the window on the first opportunity they have to show they mean it, the third part of those blog posts.

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If they don't stick to their original promise here then many many players will be out.   Thats why there are safezones. That's why you shouldn't be in the ffa Zone if you arent prepared to l

Well, no that I have your attention, yes I do think that PVP and specifically combat PVP is important to DU. It is not vital but it is important, if not very important. For Combat PVP to work it

Like, how do we measure the fun level experienced by a gunner?  Task 1 press reload Task 2 press identify Task 3 press lock Task 4 press fire.  Task 5 watch the battle happen

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We get it you want PVP but what the hell is the point of PVP if there is nothing else leading to PVP? It seems you guys have spent too long drifting in space and all that radiation had shrunk your concept of basic game mechanics to drive PVP. There literally is no game to play to want to PVP in. How about you stop bitching about PVP and focus on the systems that could drive it then complain about how broken it is.

 

We don't need 500 more topics and posts from you blaze complaining about PVP that's all you talk about. It seems you have little to no knowledge of how a game should be developed from start to finish, you just want to jump right to the end game patches.

 

4k posts and about the last 300 are complaining about PVP.

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I do not care for PVP at all myself but while that is the case, I do see why PVP is important for a game like DU and needs to be done right. I also understand and accept that in my choice of playstyle in a game like DU I may encounter combat PVP and I'm fine with that. I also expect I wil need to take precautionary measures because of that and would expect NQ to provide me the means to do that without being forced to put guns on my ships. Mitigating the risk to a point where it is acceptable is all I ask..

 

This post is _actually_ supporting NQ's choices in this as a way to get these mechanics working and balanced _before_ they get implemented in their intended places in the game.

 

Your statement that "4k posts and about the last 300 are complaining about PVP." is also factually incorrect as I hardly, if ever, complain about PVP for the above reasons actually. What's interesting here @Snipey is that it appears you have not even read the post or at least completely missed the point.. That's OK though as I get there will always be some that just hit the reply button to bash what others write just because their name is on the OP. The only one complaining in this thread so far is you.

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4 hours ago, Snipey said:

We get it you want PVP but what the hell is the point of PVP if there is nothing else leading to PVP? It seems you guys have spent too long drifting in space and all that radiation had shrunk your concept of basic game mechanics to drive PVP. There literally is no game to play to want to PVP in. How about you stop bitching about PVP and focus on the systems that could drive it then complain about how broken it is.

 

We don't need 500 more topics and posts from you blaze complaining about PVP that's all you talk about. It seems you have little to no knowledge of how a game should be developed from start to finish, you just want to jump right to the end game patches.

 

4k posts and about the last 300 are complaining about PVP.

Lol Snipey... 

 

It's like you woke up, put on a left sock, got an alarm that the Staff of Wisdom struck again, and just ranted some crazy nonsense no doubt connected to your dreams of Blazemonger terrorizing you witb chopsticks and voxel checkerboard... and then you went to have a smoke on the balcony and realized you were butt naked.

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8 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Could this be a ploy by NQ to tick the TW box and move planet side TW beyond release as they will do what they must to hit release end of the year and will push out what they can to get there?

 

Could be. They did use TW in conjunction with space to feel the ground so to speak (pun intended). Nonetheless TW is delayed, AvA is delayed (not even happening ever I expect). Did they just realize that building an mmo on cloud flare is expensive?)

 

 

In terms of PvP idk... it's so broken that adding more systems to it will only increase bugs. If your baseline combat system is not smooth and, most of all, fun, then adding stuff to it won't make it fun either, only more tedious imho. When a rifle is trash adding fancy scopes, lasers, and pink guerrilla camo skins to it may deceive the average newb but it won't improve the rifle.

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Personally I think (open world) PVP is bad for this game.  PVP brings along baggage that is incompatible with some games.

 

PVP games come with heavy game balancing requirements.

PVP comes with a strong need to squash 'exploits'.  

PVP comes with more strictly imposed limits.

 

Sure, these are true of all games to a degree, but the scope of them in PVP that is vastly different, as well as the impact (In single player/PVE you are not targeting players with exploits, just NPCs).  Ever look at the patch notes of a PVP MMO?  Constant miniscule tweaks years after launch to prevent a singular 'Meta'.  This is not an attack on PVP, it is just that PVP is inherently highly competitive in nature and it incentivizes many things that can quickly become a headache for developers.  Headaches that require specific types of changes to address, which would conflict with the current game design.

 

What makes this game less suited to PVP?  Freedom and flexibility. The less rigid a system is, the more prone to exploiting.  The more a player has access to, the more prone to exploiting.  So creativity and customization do not pair well with PVP.  Scripts?  Good luck keeping them from turning into an exploitive nightmare.  The Devs will likely end up with two choices, restricting the creative aspect, or leave the PVP players to fend for themselves, either way, someone will end up very unhappy.  

 

Creative (actual creation, not dress-up) just pairs better with PVE and Social gameplay.  In PVP, creative is actually optimization.  It is about finding and perfecting the Meta to exploit the game mechanics. Not bad, just very different. 

 

Now if they what to shift the focus away from creative, PVP (open world) could work.  The 'player economy' model works well with PVP and is similarly sensitive to balance and exploits.  Or they could keep PVP sandboxed, such as with arenas, which would allow for slightly different rules/restrictions for PVP such as limiting scripts and the like that wouldn't affect the entire player base.

 

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1 hour ago, Taziar said:

Personally I think (open world) PVP is bad for this game.  

 

Without avid PvP scene (despite all difficulties to establish it) this game is good as dead.

 

Because hardcore peaceful players (who can do their thing for years) are serious minority, more casual peaceful players have generaly "lifespan" of several months, they grind, do all what they wanted (or have patience to) and quit, often forever, because story is exausted for their short attention span.

 

So, its mostly up to more or less involved PvP players to pay big chunk of "keeping game alive" money, with draggin in buddies, alts, ocasional returns to "check new combat balance", etc.

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There are tons of MMOs either without (OPEN WORLD) PVP or where it plays a small part.  Consensual PVP with very limited death penalties is pretty much the norm these days, most people don't want to go back to the early days of WOW where there was true open world PVP.  Turns out getting randomly one-shotted by high level players wasn't all that popular.  And Games like ESO have a fenced in PVP zone.  Fallout 76 had to quickly nerf their PVP even with small instanced servers.  Sure they can keep safe zones but if they have resources exclusive to PVP, non-pvp players won't be happy, and if they don't then it is harder to make (open world) PVP worthwhile.  

 

Really they just need to pick a direction.  The player base and game design for Second Life is vastly different than say Rust and trying to squash the two together in a single game is gonna end poorly.  Creative, Social, PVE, and PVP can all be fun but they don't always play together well. 

 

And to your point,  they need to decide on their marketing strategy.  Long term niche players works for some games, like DDO.  Some games benefit from attracting from a larger pool even if they don't stay for years.  Catering to one often has consequences for the other.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Taziar said:

There are tons of MMOs either without (OPEN WORLD) PVP or where it plays a small part.  Consensual PVP with very limited death penalties is pretty much the norm these days, most people don't want to go back to the early days of WOW where there was true open world PVP. 

 

Care to share say 12 of them? I doubt you can give me that many successful open world persistent single shard MMO titles that do not have PVP or where PVP plays a minor part.

 

PVP is the game loop closer, it brings everything back to the beginning. That doe snot mean it is the central mechanic around which everything does or should revolve but it play as much of a part in most MMO games as any other mechanic. It is also probably the hardest one to balance. I would never say or suggest there should not be combat PVP in DU. I do feel it is a mechanic that needs to come in last and be the mechanic that is balanced to impact but not disrupt other mechanics.

 

I also think that the current combat PVP contingent in DU player wise for a good portion has expectations and wants that can never be met by the game for the very reason that in DU combat serves a purpose and as I see it actually serves other mechanics and game balance. It brings balance but it's not _the_ balance.

 

In the end and IMO, NQ is trying to create EVE with a mine craft twist. And that will be extremely hard to get right. CCP managed to find a pretty good balance between PVP and PVE but it's a constant tight rope requiring a lot of work and adjustment on a consistent basis.

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"Care to share say 12 of them? I doubt you can give me that many successful open world persistent single shard MMO titles that do not have PVP or where PVP plays a minor part."

 

That is a lot of words to say Eve Online.

 

I couldn't name a dozen single shard open world MMOs, never mind successful ones, even without factoring in type or existence of PVP. Which is unsurprising because they are massively problematic (and not just on the technical side), but that is another discussion.

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Pvp are the fuel for mining and industry have sense, why with no destruction you can fast fill the economy demands. And this colapse the economy, MMO with no pvp works why have systems like expansions what literal wipe all your items , releasing better ones to adquire.

 

There are enought knloledge about how MMO and sand box works, to ignore it and try invent excuses, just copy the succes ones like EVE. And stop tink in utopic peaceful world, if you pretend a capitalism system works.

 

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Copying EVE is like trying to make a viral video.  A fools errand.

 

What is good/special about this game?

Voxels/Ship Building/Civilization Building -  Basically the Creative aspect

Industry  - which they destroyed, and intend to keep destroyed in the name of 'longevity'

 

So, they can either embrace its strength, the creative side, and develop gameplay loops around that, or they can focus on things this game does poorly (PVP, etc), redesign them and then build game around that. What they can't do is keep pretending they can do all of it without going bankrupt or having the game implode.

 

I don't particularly care which route they choose, successful launch or launchpad explosion, popcorn is salted either way.  But it seems that other people still see the game as it was pitched rather than what has actually been created.  I predict much disappointment in their future.

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OK, so mention me 12 of the "Tons of MMOs either without (OPEN WORLD) PVP or where it plays a small part." then.. I am pretty sure you will not even have a handful of titles you can provide..

 

Combat PVP is an inherent part of basic MMO gameplay and for good reason. Could an MMO exist without it? I would say yes, but the appeal and endurance of gameplay options would be limited. While I certainly agree that while playing a MMO a player should have the option to avoid PVP and choose a different path but it can't and should never be possible to eliminate PVP from the game entirely without serious consequences to your options and ability to progress. It's basic risk and reward.

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If they don't stick to their original promise here then many many players will be out.

 

Thats why there are safezones. That's why you shouldn't be in the ffa Zone if you arent prepared to lose stuff. Dont really see how this doesn't work. With the right mechanics and a good and well prepared devteam.....oh, I see the problem now 

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9 hours ago, Taziar said:

Personally I think (open world) PVP is bad for this game.  PVP brings along baggage that is incompatible with some games.

 

PVP games come with heavy game balancing requirements.

PVP comes with a strong need to squash 'exploits'.  

PVP comes with more strictly imposed limits.

 

Sure, these are true of all games to a degree, but the scope of them in PVP that is vastly different, as well as the impact (In single player/PVE you are not targeting players with exploits, just NPCs).  Ever look at the patch notes of a PVP MMO?  Constant miniscule tweaks years after launch to prevent a singular 'Meta'.  This is not an attack on PVP, it is just that PVP is inherently highly competitive in nature and it incentivizes many things that can quickly become a headache for developers.  Headaches that require specific types of changes to address, which would conflict with the current game design.

 

What makes this game less suited to PVP?  Freedom and flexibility. The less rigid a system is, the more prone to exploiting.  The more a player has access to, the more prone to exploiting.  So creativity and customization do not pair well with PVP.  Scripts?  Good luck keeping them from turning into an exploitive nightmare.  The Devs will likely end up with two choices, restricting the creative aspect, or leave the PVP players to fend for themselves, either way, someone will end up very unhappy.  

 

Creative (actual creation, not dress-up) just pairs better with PVE and Social gameplay.  In PVP, creative is actually optimization.  It is about finding and perfecting the Meta to exploit the game mechanics. Not bad, just very different. 

 

Now if they what to shift the focus away from creative, PVP (open world) could work.  The 'player economy' model works well with PVP and is similarly sensitive to balance and exploits.  Or they could keep PVP sandboxed, such as with arenas, which would allow for slightly different rules/restrictions for PVP such as limiting scripts and the like that wouldn't affect the entire player base.

 

I think a sandbox MMO without PvP is an oxymoron.  Open world sandboxes are all about players coming together to create a world where they can have adventures and create good stories for people to tell.  A lot of that good stuff is going to be driven by conflict and for conflict you need to have PvP.

 

I'm not saying there has to be PvP all the time everywhere.  In fact I think that it should be possible for people to play the game in a largely PvP free way just by sticking to the safe areas (although I don't think anyone should ever be able to consider themselves 100% safe unless parked on their own sanctuary tile).  But the PvP has to be there and it has to be front and centre otherwise the whole DU world is just going to be a big theme park showcase of the clever things users have built.

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7 hours ago, Taziar said:

There are tons of MMOs either without (OPEN WORLD) PVP or where it plays a small part.  Consensual PVP with very limited death penalties is pretty much the norm these days, most people don't want to go back to the early days of WOW where there was true open world PVP.  Turns out getting randomly one-shotted by high level players wasn't all that popular.  And Games like ESO have a fenced in PVP zone.  Fallout 76 had to quickly nerf their PVP even with small instanced servers.  Sure they can keep safe zones but if they have resources exclusive to PVP, non-pvp players won't be happy, and if they don't then it is harder to make (open world) PVP worthwhile.  

 

Really they just need to pick a direction.  The player base and game design for Second Life is vastly different than say Rust and trying to squash the two together in a single game is gonna end poorly.  Creative, Social, PVE, and PVP can all be fun but they don't always play together well. 

 

And to your point,  they need to decide on their marketing strategy.  Long term niche players works for some games, like DDO.  Some games benefit from attracting from a larger pool even if they don't stay for years.  Catering to one often has consequences for the other.

 

 

Generally, though, the games where there is fenced in PvP are not true open world games are they?  Second life, for example, wasn't an open world game in the sense that there were people playing a game and creating a story?  It was just a theme park for people to create/consume things and interact wasn't it?

 

IMO the direction of DU has already been set by the features which have already been implemented, particularly territory ownership.  If you have a true open world game where people can claim territory and build things, how can you have territory claiming without some sort of way for people to contest a territory they want?  Over time won't that just end up with miles and miles of territory owned by people who aren't playing and all the active players all spread out so far apart they can't really interact well or have fun?

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A good game doesn't have to have PvP as its main content, it is perfectly sufficient to have PvP as a side content to keep this PvP minority happy. You see World of Warcraft and the arena or battlefields there, these are instanced - the free world itself is hardly used there to experience PvP, but rather ignored by the masses.

In Dual Universe I see a lot of solo players who want to build their ships or houses, city facilities, very many don't want to experience active PvP, try it out, yes - but as a duty, no.

Building the world, letting creativity go free is the ultimate goal of this game, everything else is allowed to come after that, always careful not to restrict the player's freedom when it comes to creativity. As far as the industrialists are concerned, they don't want to be actively involved in PvP either, but rather to use PvP to sell their goods so that they don't have to collect ores all the time.
But it shouldn't make sense to impose something on other players so that a few industrial players are satisfied.

I agree that you can bring PvP into play, but would limit it to the fact that there is a special solar system that acts as a complete PvP zone. The ruffians can piss each other off and the industrialists are sure to be happy too. But the main concern should be peaceful solar systems.

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PvP needs to be fenced in if you want a large enough player base - even EVE has its PvP fenced in, or to be more accurate maybe its non-PvP fenced in. If you are looking at a persistent world then the PvP spaces are the out of the way places. The mechanics don't make sense otherwise. The game also has to enforce the safe zones appropriately - there will never be a player run police force that is successful for most players as this is still a game not your life and no one wants to always be 'on'.

 

But, yes, successful PvP is good for builders as long as there is an easy way to sell your goods - including finished items. I need to be able to sell finished ships on the markets (or ship bundles) for example. This ability would also get rid of some of the clutter around said markets too hopefully.

 

I also get the whole 'building stories' part of things but in reality that is such a small part of reality for most players. You just don't end up in that many epic battles and I just can't imagine DU at this point having the epic battle ability at this point. It will be hard with the customized ships as they are and destructible parts. The data requirements will be insane!

 

So yes, but frankly I would say missions, some mining automation - or at least the ability to build semi-automated miners - and a better way of selling what you build are all more important. Also if the lag doesn't get fixed PvP at any scale will be a joke - so lag first!

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3 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

... It was just a theme park for people to create/consume things and interact wasn't it?

 

... how can you have territory claiming without some sort of way for people to contest a territory they want?  Over time won't that just end up with miles and miles of territory owned by people who aren't playing and all the active players all spread out so far apart they can't really interact well or have fun?

 

Someone built a small city (including monorail) in this game, it is not as different from Second Life as one would imagine.  It just has a bit more focus on actual gameplay (which feels odd to say considering the state of this game).

 

You are right about the territory claiming, we just disagree about the solution.  There are Safe Zones in this game, so all that will happen regardless.  Safe Zones will sprawl or have no vacancies for new players.  (This is often addressed with instancing or additional servers but... single shard).  The solution in this game should be Rent/Taxes with progressive rates based on how much you own. 

 

Your method requires a full loot type of PVP.  If someone can lose their land and everything they built on it, nobody would  build anything beyond a mine and walls of turrets. Excepting a few large orgs, perhaps.  Everything else would be built in safe zones.  They could eliminate safe zones, but that would basically kill the game.

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24 minutes ago, Taziar said:

 

Someone built a small city (including monorail) in this game, it is not as different from Second Life as one would imagine.  It just has a bit more focus on actual gameplay (which feels odd to say considering the state of this game).

 

You are right about the territory claiming, we just disagree about the solution.  There are Safe Zones in this game, so all that will happen regardless.  Safe Zones will sprawl or have no vacancies for new players.  (This is often addressed with instancing or additional servers but... single shard).  The solution in this game should be Rent/Taxes with progressive rates based on how much you own. 

 

Your method requires a full loot type of PVP.  If someone can lose their land and everything they built on it, nobody would  build anything beyond a mine and walls of turrets. Excepting a few large orgs, perhaps.  Everything else would be built in safe zones.  They could eliminate safe zones, but that would basically kill the game.

 

This +1


Finally, someone who understands the real problem here. And to add to this, the reason people come and go, is because of the old timers who are not saying anything constructive to help the devs, they are basically being toxic players that run off the new players. I have seen a lot of new players come and go, and their reason ? Toxic Players. It has become a vicious circle.

We need constructive criticism to work with the devs. IF those with an agenda hate the game, I quote what I saw a few other players say  " move on ".

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The most important aspect of this or any MMO's PVP is that it is (at least mostly) consensual.  Players choose to fight over a thing or place or choose to risk having to fight to get to a thing or place. 

 

The asteroids are a step in the right direction but the OP brings up some things that will need to be addressed: There will need to be such an abundance of asteroid spawn locations that there is no use in bookmarking or trying to predict them - because you know people will try.  

 

They will need to be spread around the planets and safe areas evenly so there are no travel corridors from safe areas to asteroid spawns that can be camped. 

 

There will need to be enough asteroids spawned at one time that there is enough payoff in ore to be worth the time spend traveling to them, scanning for them and risking death for them. 

 

The biggest trouble with launching TW right now is that there are no territories worth fighting over. The planets were mined out when I quit playing months ago.  I think PVP and TW are  necessary for the creation of a real economy but I cant see the value that makes territory worth fighting over right now.  A storage point on a moon might be good for asteroid hunting I suppose. 

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I own 120 city tiles connected together on Alioth  (i have seen there are bigger areas than me).My dream is to build a big city . I have spent a lot of millions for that .I also spent a lot of time for that . I dont want Alioth to be a condested pvp area .  I am here to build on a persistent world not test my farming skills . And you wanna know what ?

I will definetely join a battle with a pvp org after i feel i want to pew pew but not risking my entire city for a guy who just subbed for the weekend . So Alioth madis thades circle safe zone needs to be that way . Make your pvp game far beyond to places that offer pvp material and good stuff BUT not my building progress cause if i knew that i wouldnt built it in first place ! YOU will not enjoy it also if that happens ... Persistent is the key !

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

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21 hours ago, Taziar said:

 

You are right about the territory claiming, we just disagree about the solution.  There are Safe Zones in this game, so all that will happen regardless.  Safe Zones will sprawl or have no vacancies for new players.  (This is often addressed with instancing or additional servers but... single shard).  The solution in this game should be Rent/Taxes with progressive rates based on how much you own. 

 

I agree with this, and I actually said somewhere above that I think there should be safezones where PvP can be avoided.  Those can host all sorts of things from theme park-like cities to ship showrooms and even pirate bases like Tortuga because yes, nobody likes to spend months building something to have people blow it up once a week , ransom it, try to force them into an org to protect it, etc.  I also agree with rent/taxes as a good mechanism for returning unused tiles (perhaps with the ability for someone else to bid up the rent on the tile if they want it).

 

But I think there still needs to be some sense of danger wherever you are so the game stays fun.  Perhaps someone could push you off a building when you're too close to the edge and loot your inventory at the bottom (getting chased by robot police or whatever).  Perhaps collision damage into buildings could be a thing and buildings can have shields to protect against it?  Also I think allowing people to scam, steal things which aren't nailed down (and fly them into the PvP zone and kill them) etc would also make it more fun and challenging.  At the end of the day DU was always supposed to be a game and not just a showcase of cool stuff.

 

 

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Sense of danger is good, though I prefer it to come from PVE, not PvP as that generally devolves to griefing.

 

Getting randomly murdered or robbed is not really a fun game mechanic.  In order for it to be PvP and not just griefing, there would have to be risks/rewards on both sides and that is never the case.  Sure, I could catch and kill a thief (if avatar combat was in the game) then loot their corpse, but you and I both know they would have nothing on them when they go on a griefing spree.  Now, if you add in a prison system where if I catch a criminal/scammer then they get locked out of the game for a week (increases based on times caught), sure, I am down with that. I mean, you said there needs to be danger, that should apply to the criminals as well, no? I know they would just sign into an alt and continue playing, but at least their griefing account would be locked for awhile and that would bring me joy.  I think it is perfectly fair.  If there are going to be game mechanics to be a criminal, non-criminals should have mechanics to punish said criminals. and not just death where they respawn 15 seconds later, but something that causes as much annoyance and frustration as their victim would have experienced had the thief gotten away with the loot/ship.  

 

But since that is unlikely to happen, I hope they add in PVE, because I agree, there needs to be risk as well as more gameplay elements.  

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1 hour ago, Taziar said:

Sense of danger is good, though I prefer it to come from PVE, not PvP as that generally devolves to griefing.

 

Getting randomly murdered or robbed is not really a fun game mechanic.  In order for it to be PvP and not just griefing, there would have to be risks/rewards on both sides and that is never the case.  Sure, I could catch and kill a thief (if avatar combat was in the game) then loot their corpse, but you and I both know they would have nothing on them when they go on a griefing spree.  Now, if you add in a prison system where if I catch a criminal/scammer then they get locked out of the game for a week (increases based on times caught), sure, I am down with that. I mean, you said there needs to be danger, that should apply to the criminals as well, no? I know they would just sign into an alt and continue playing, but at least their griefing account would be locked for awhile and that would bring me joy.  I think it is perfectly fair.  If there are going to be game mechanics to be a criminal, non-criminals should have mechanics to punish said criminals. and not just death where they respawn 15 seconds later, but something that causes as much annoyance and frustration as their victim would have experienced had the thief gotten away with the loot/ship.  

 

But since that is unlikely to happen, I hope they add in PVE, because I agree, there needs to be risk as well as more gameplay elements.  

Well everyone has their own playstyles and I suppose it's all a question of degree and balance.  I don't really like PvE types of risks because they tend to be quite predictable.  Personally I enjoy the possibility of being randomly robbed and murdered so long as it's very small and possible to plan around.  Eve's suicide ganks are a great example of this, I got ganked about 9 months into that game and lost half of what I'd made up until that point, but it made me more interested in the game not less.  It gave me a whole bunch of new things to think about like how to set up my ships to counter it (i.e. stay alive long enough), plan how not to look like a target, pick better routes, etc and without that sort of thing I would probably have got bored with the game before I ever got into the best parts of it.

 

For me it's all about the stories.  Getting robbed is a good story, see, I just told it!  Also I quite like robbing people and stealing their stuff from time to time, mostly for the lols and the stories.  And I also quite like trying to rob the thieves from time to time as well, because good stories again.  If you're playing a game for years and don't have good stories to tell you're probably bored or doing it wrong.  And if you're playing in total safety then you won't have many good stories IMO.  'I got killed by a rat' is a funny story sometimes (I've got some like that in fact), but I'm hoping for more.

 

But yes, there needs to be counter play so you can grief the griefers back!  I quite like the idea of bounties if properly implemented.  Or robot police drones that show up and chase the person around for a while if you report the crime.  Perhaps you could have the player sent to an actual prison if the robots catch them and then they have to manually mine a certain amount of ore to get free again?  It would be even cooler if your friends could do a prison break by assaulting the prison in a territory warfare battle ...

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