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Why PVP is important to the game.


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On 4/18/2021 at 2:26 AM, Habitant said:

I own 120 city tiles connected together on Alioth  (i have seen there are bigger areas than me).My dream is to build a big city . I have spent a lot of millions for that .I also spent a lot of time for that . I dont want Alioth to be a condested pvp area .  I am here to build on a persistent world not test my farming skills . And you wanna know what ?

I will definetely join a battle with a pvp org after i feel i want to pew pew but not risking my entire city for a guy who just subbed for the weekend . So Alioth madis thades circle safe zone needs to be that way . Make your pvp game far beyond to places that offer pvp material and good stuff BUT not my building progress cause if i knew that i wouldnt built it in first place ! YOU will not enjoy it also if that happens ... Persistent is the key !

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

And this is why I really hope for upkeep costs soon.  No offense but this level of grand planning should be the efforts of multiple people not a single person.  

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3 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:

 

I fail to see why permadeath (character death) is brought up in DU context though, it doesn't exist in DU. I'm also not sure what this argument means "they (presumably pvpers) are fine with destroying the creations of others.... but not their own creations (the character itself)"... ?? Character? I don't get it. If someone pvps they are risking their own creations (in DU context, it is their ship / ammo / guns / whatever is on board). Not sure what "their character" has anything to do with it?

 

In my opinion it is all about time invested - the builder invests significant time on their creations whereas to be good at PvP you (at least partially) have to invest significant time in your character stats. Losing a ship is kind of 'so what'. My other point is folks keep bringing up 'realism' and 'evolution' - well in the real world when you lose in a fight to the death you are done - and from an evolutionary perspective when you lose in a fight to the death you are also at a dead end (excluding progeny of course - which would be a whole other discussion).

 

3 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:

I also fail to see what's going on here... I was merely saying that the whole premise of the game was civilization building. And that the game has nothing to show for it in terms of that particular vision. It's just another mmo tech demo with voxels. As for evolution of the game, sure I'm all for it. And if they are going a different direction they should say so. Until they do the "vision" remains the same and the game makes no sense. Not sure where you see the irony of me failing to recognize possibility of game developing into something else. Currently it isn't developing in any direction whatsoever. We'll see with the upcoming patches though. With new management the game might take a different route. At any rate NQ has a massive recuperation mountain to climb.... more than 20 million dollars later.

All I'm saying is that the source is meh - marketing and visions rarely survive without significant alteration once they hit the burning light of day. And, let's be honest, in the world of building MMOs 20 million is not a lot (sadly). I do agree with you, though, if their direction is changing then they absolutely should say so and preferably why.

 

I guess also I tend to see PvP proponents counting only in one direction - but maybe we all do that.

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Big Arse shields and better ways to protect elements. 

 

Make it if a skilled pirate with a good ship runs into a well built hauler who has invested in lots and lots of armour, and has invested in some high grade shields; the there is just as much chance he will hold out for an hour heading for a safe harbour as there is that the pirate will get him.

 

Make it so there is actually time to call in friends or an Org to assist, either the attacker who thinks he has found a good whale, or the defender who who puts out a SOS to a rescue service.

 

You say there needs to be risk and reward. True, but migrating risk is part of that. You should be able to carry an extra 10KT of armour and have it help, rather than just have your elements destroyed. You should be able to spend big coin and have a big shield which takes up a lot of your cargo space if you want.

 

Having it that if you are in a hauler and you get spotted means you are dead is stupid. Just like the combatant is able to do things to make their ship a murdering killer machine, the haulers should be able to make their ships the nightmare of targets.

 

Thats not even going into stuff like having the option to jettison containers and the like so the pirates have to make a decision of chase the easy loot, or keep chasing the primary, but you won’t get both.

 

Plus is it really PvP if a fully skilled pirate in a fully decked out combat ship comes apron anything but the like currently?

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42 minutes ago, CoyoteNZ said:

Big Arse shields and better ways to protect elements. 

 

Make it if a skilled pirate with a good ship runs into a well built hauler who has invested in lots and lots of armour, and has invested in some high grade shields; the there is just as much chance he will hold out for an hour heading for a safe harbour as there is that the pirate will get him.

 

Make it so there is actually time to call in friends or an Org to assist, either the attacker who thinks he has found a good whale, or the defender who who puts out a SOS to a rescue service.

 

You say there needs to be risk and reward. True, but migrating risk is part of that. You should be able to carry an extra 10KT of armour and have it help, rather than just have your elements destroyed. You should be able to spend big coin and have a big shield which takes up a lot of your cargo space if you want.

 

Having it that if you are in a hauler and you get spotted means you are dead is stupid. Just like the combatant is able to do things to make their ship a murdering killer machine, the haulers should be able to make their ships the nightmare of targets.

 

Thats not even going into stuff like having the option to jettison containers and the like so the pirates have to make a decision of chase the easy loot, or keep chasing the primary, but you won’t get both.

 

Plus is it really PvP if a fully skilled pirate in a fully decked out combat ship comes apron anything but the like currently?

 

 

I am not a proponent of the current pvp model whatsoever. However, if someone fails to understand basic DU ship and pvp mechanics it's on them.

 

1) never fly in the pipe. Using this sekret anime technique you will encounter pirates 0.000001% of the time.

2) Do not build naked haulers if you want to fly in the pipe. Yes that is more expensive. So are meta pvp ships. But if you get killed by someone in 10 minutes that's your fault, you made a crappy hauler, you failed to research how one would build a meta hauler, you failed by flying in the pipe.

 

This does not mean I like #2. There needs to be a way to retaliate. Shields. Guns, etc. I for one do not like the rule that you can't use L guns on s or m cores. I also do not like that you have to use gunner seats in order to use big weapons. There's a host of barriers to entry for a good pvp ship or a hauler and these limitations do not help the situation but rather exasperate it. If you were hauling and you had the ability to have 3-4 L rails on your ship without a gunner seat, anyone would think twice before attacking.

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2 hours ago, Cheith said:

the builder invests significant time on their creations whereas to be good at PvP you (at least partially) have to invest significant time in your character stats. Losing a ship is kind of 'so what'.

 

I see what you mean. That depends of course...

 

  1. if we're talking pvp meta ships, no, this statement is not true. Those things are really expensive to build. And they are expensive to repair. I'm not sure people comprehend how much mining and man hours it takes to build one of the golden ships from Boo's Gold Armada. I'm not sure people understand how much it takes to repair them after a "battle". No one wants to lose one of those, so pvp battles tend to be more about whoever gets pushed out into the safezone first, battle of attrition. Additionally, if we talk about piracy as an easy win card, it's not like piracy is profitable, it mostly does not exist and the "piracy" you can do is very aids if you ask me, you'll spend more on fuel and waste more time and quanta pirating than if you were digging holes in the ground and selling to bots.
  2. I don't think it makes much sense to divide people into pvpers and builders... pvpers are also builders, whereas you're probably talking about a subset of players that are purely builders I'm assuming. PvP builders are just more specifically focused on indy buildings, ship building for pvp, and station building rather than purely builders who want to avoid pvp. Have you looked at the Foundry for example? That is a station built by a pvp group. There are also others, some really fancy.
  3. Talents don't matter too much in meta pvp, again it's mostly about ship stamina rather than who can shoot further. Repair talents help though, repair engineers are really important in fights. Smart pvp ship builders make ships that last longer and take more shots.... but they also mine a lot in order to repair.

 

2 hours ago, Cheith said:

My other point is folks keep bringing up 'realism' and 'evolution' - well in the real world when you lose in a fight to the death you are done - and from an evolutionary perspective when you lose in a fight to the death you are also at a dead end (excluding progeny of course - which would be a whole other discussion).

 

I see. And I agree. If that's where the conversation headed before I mentioned this was a civilization building game then no comment. If it was the case though... then... I think games should (and they do) take inspiration from real life but they should not mimic real life. And I'm mainly talking about the fact that in real life things are cohesive, there are causes and effects, stuff just doesn't appear out of thin air. In a game, this happens all the time, but it only makes sense if it is cohesive within the world it is trying to build. The cohesion is where I make the parallel between real life and games. I do not like that some games mimic real life where it becomes a second job. In terms of DU and civilization mechanics, this is why I already mentioned elsewhere on this forum that before you set out to make such a game with such "grandiose visions", maybe you should start with first principles and ask what civilization is, what are its characteristics, what are its causes. Once you have the key ingredients, then you think about choosing a few important ones that you can actually gamify and make a cohesive yet fun system out of. And I'm simply saying this never happened. It doesn't feel like it did anyway, since the game exhibits absolutely no civilization building mechanics or progressions. NQ should probably rethink that "vision" :) 

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I was hopeing for the game focus is not PvP. Seems it is, so I do not log in to check very often anymore.

 

Playing MMO`s/RPGs for more as 20 years now, all PvP Games I knew are dead in the meantime.

Why: In the long run no one wants griefing, and ganking all the time when PvP is open world. PvP in arenas and when no one is forced to be there (due to quests or grinding) is fine however. All PvP Players can be there, messure their own d*** length and do not bother others.

 

PvE games I knew are still around and have tons of players.

 

Personaly I would not pay for a PvP Game subscription

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12 minutes ago, FredyKyong said:

PvE games I knew are still around and have tons of players.

 

Personaly I would not pay for a PvP Game subscription

 

I first heard about this game when it was in kickstarter. It was kind of advertised as a universe of PvP with a few small areas of safety. That’s why I’m not a alpha supporter, wasn’t interest.

 

Next time it came onto my radar it was beta, and the message seemed to have changed, to build, exploration, etc. PvP had been minimised. So I subscribed. If I knew during kickstart how it would have been now I would have been one.

 

i have no interest in PvP, but I have no problem with it being around as long as I’m not forced into it.

 

I play ESO on and off. I am pretty much PvE. But every now and then I’ll venture into the PvP area and try and sneak around and do a mission (not actual PvP). If I’m lucky I’ll pull it off. If I,  or somebody will spot me, and si de I’m running armour I like the look of, rather than meta, since I’m running skills I thought were interesting rather than meta, since I don’t have the reflexes of a 16 year old who plays eight hours a day, I die. But what do I lose? Just the mission. I don’t lose my kit, it’s not even damaged.

 

I slip into ED every now and then, I was a alpha for that. Most of the time I play on a non PvP server. But some times when transporting a ship between stations I’ll pop into a regular server. If I can’t manage to beat them in interceptions and escape, good chance I die. What do I lose? A bit of money for my insurance, that’s all.

 

Over here in DU, I’m not going to risk PvP areas. I don’t have the talent. My ship is a hauler, not a PvP meta. If I did, which I would if found, what do I lose? I lose my ship and everything it’s carrying. It’s to costly. It’s not worth the risk.

 

Maybe that’s the problem? Maybe they need to introduce less losses? Insurance?

 

As it is, other games, not a PvP fan/player, but will risk being a target every now and then.

 

This game, my ship is costly, I could lose a whole week of mining. Sorry, no interest; not gonna be a target. And if they change the mechanism so I have to be, probably will just leave if I can’t fi d a way around it. 

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On 4/21/2021 at 8:32 PM, LouHodo said:

And this is why I really hope for upkeep costs soon.  No offense but this level of grand planning should be the efforts of multiple people not a single person.  

Never underestime a power of a passionate man. The great creators — the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors — stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won.

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On 4/21/2021 at 8:55 PM, IvanGrozniy said:

 

I see what you mean. That depends of course...

 

  1. if we're talking pvp meta ships, no, this statement is not true. Those things are really expensive to build. And they are expensive to repair. I'm not sure people comprehend how much mining and man hours it takes to build one of the golden ships from Boo's Gold Armada. I'm not sure people understand how much it takes to repair them after a "battle". No one wants to lose one of those, so pvp battles tend to be more about whoever gets pushed out into the safezone first, battle of attrition. Additionally, if we talk about piracy as an easy win card, it's not like piracy is profitable, it mostly does not exist and the "piracy" you can do is very aids if you ask me, you'll spend more on fuel and waste more time and quanta pirating than if you were digging holes in the ground and selling to bots.
  2. I don't think it makes much sense to divide people into pvpers and builders... pvpers are also builders, whereas you're probably talking about a subset of players that are purely builders I'm assuming. PvP builders are just more specifically focused on indy buildings, ship building for pvp, and station building rather than purely builders who want to avoid pvp. Have you looked at the Foundry for example? That is a station built by a pvp group. There are also others, some really fancy.
  3. Talents don't matter too much in meta pvp, again it's mostly about ship stamina rather than who can shoot further. Repair talents help though, repair engineers are really important in fights. Smart pvp ship builders make ships that last longer and take more shots.... but they also mine a lot in order to repair.

 

I think we are largely agreeing - the only thing I would add is that, unfortunately, there are those in the PvP world who just like to shoot things and will gang up to shoot things. Destruction for destruction's sake. Sad but true. The game mechanics have to figure out how to deal with that or just decide they don't care. I have dabbled around in enough almost completely open PvP worlds to know how that turns out and will certainly avoid any games that end up in that vein as they are just not fun for me.

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16 hours ago, CoyoteNZ said:

 

I first heard about this game when it was in kickstarter. It was kind of advertised as a universe of PvP with a few small areas of safety. That’s why I’m not a alpha supporter, wasn’t interest.

 

Next time it came onto my radar it was beta, and the message seemed to have changed, to build, exploration, etc. PvP had been minimised. So I subscribed. If I knew during kickstart how it would have been now I would have been one.

 

i have no interest in PvP, but I have no problem with it being around as long as I’m not forced into it.

 

I play ESO on and off. I am pretty much PvE. But every now and then I’ll venture into the PvP area and try and sneak around and do a mission (not actual PvP). If I’m lucky I’ll pull it off. If I,  or somebody will spot me, and si de I’m running armour I like the look of, rather than meta, since I’m running skills I thought were interesting rather than meta, since I don’t have the reflexes of a 16 year old who plays eight hours a day, I die. But what do I lose? Just the mission. I don’t lose my kit, it’s not even damaged.

 

I slip into ED every now and then, I was a alpha for that. Most of the time I play on a non PvP server. But some times when transporting a ship between stations I’ll pop into a regular server. If I can’t manage to beat them in interceptions and escape, good chance I die. What do I lose? A bit of money for my insurance, that’s all.

 

Over here in DU, I’m not going to risk PvP areas. I don’t have the talent. My ship is a hauler, not a PvP meta. If I did, which I would if found, what do I lose? I lose my ship and everything it’s carrying. It’s to costly. It’s not worth the risk.

 

Maybe that’s the problem? Maybe they need to introduce less losses? Insurance?

 

As it is, other games, not a PvP fan/player, but will risk being a target every now and then.

 

This game, my ship is costly, I could lose a whole week of mining. Sorry, no interest; not gonna be a target. And if they change the mechanism so I have to be, probably will just leave if I can’t fi d a way around it. 

 

True! Eso is a very good example. It has a PvP zone no one is forced to go, except people who are up to PvP. Open World PvP would only work when you accept a duell what no one has to accept/ by choice only. This is the right way and I would have 0 problem with that playstyle.

 

@Alexsandr: WoW is dead and Eve too. No one liked to be ganked in highsec there. The reason many player left.

 

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On 4/19/2021 at 1:22 PM, IvanGrozniy said:


Ahem... and there we have it... blame the players, not the game! Best strategy ever.

 

It's a fact, you get rid of the toxic players, then the other players can have fun. It's simple. You are misinterpreting truth from your  reality.

 

Heck, even @blazemonger admitted to a few of us that there are bitter older players. Difference between you and him is that he admits he is one of those bitter older players, that has been toxic. So I call it how I see it. No strategy involved.

 

Of all the old timers who play this game, he is the only one I respect. He has also been the most helpful to us newbies. And He is honest in how feels about the game.

 

 

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I'm not really bitter though, more frustrated and disillusioned in NQ and their in ability to understand the basic concepts of community engagement and communication in general. I fully expect the CMs in NA to know better while playing along for now. But I'm tired of the frustration so better to just leave the game behind.

 

I hate to see DU go down due to the way NQ seems unable to right the ship but as things are going right now, that seems pretty much inevitable. I'll be perfectly happy to be proven wrong but I have no interest to stick around in-game on the off chance that happens, NQ has used up their chance cards in that regard in the past 3.5 years.

 

I also do expect that IF NQ manages to pull it out of the fire then a wipe will be unavoidable so everyone will start fresh at some time closer to a "release" anyway.. Like many others I may return to the game at that time.

 

Even grabbing the daily 1.5M quanta I can collect is not worth keeping the game active for and my characters have had their training queues filled. for another year or so

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1 hour ago, UnscriptedVert said:

 

It's a fact, you get rid of the toxic players, then the other players can have fun. It's simple. You are misinterpreting truth from your  reality.

 

Heck, even @blazemonger admitted to a few of us that there are bitter older players. Difference between you and him is that he admits he is one of those bitter older players, that has been toxic. So I call it how I see it. No strategy involved.

 

Of all the old timers who play this game, he is the only one I respect. He has also been the most helpful to us newbies. And He is honest in how feels about the game.

 

 

 

In just one post we learn that

  1. toxicity is a binary designation
  2. you are the arbiter of truth and reality
  3. old farts are toxic
  4. you represent newbies (presumably by election)
  5. ...... :)

 

Jokes aside, okaaaay? If you notice, I generally don't talk about players when I'm criticizing DU, I talk about the game. It is game design that facilitates, encourages, and provides incentives for certain actions, even if the said game design is unintended or not apparently purposeful. Blaming people for playing a certain way in a sandbox is counter to the sandbox. Calling players toxic doesn't help, it's quite embarrassing actually, it usually means that when someone throws an "fu" at you, you are too weak to throw "fu" x 10 back at them (expression shamelessly stolen from a Siberian intellectual). Not all newbs are the same, they are here for different reasons. Most people here are very helpful to them if they need help figuring things out. Sly remarks about "admitting x" and "you know it but don't want to admit it" silliness doesn't help either. Those things are generally summarized in a term "not an argument". If you have one, provide it so we can discuss the argument. Discussing players is a slow burn to garbage drama.

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11 hours ago, FredyKyong said:

There are too many "sh..." PvP games out there and no one ever had any new idea to play this in a different way.  It is a boring game play........TO ME.

Fixed it for you. 

Many other ppl find building boring. Or mining. Or crafting. Doesn't make it any more true or false. It's just ppls opinions.

 

DU was ALWAYS advertised as open world pvp with safezones. Noone forces you to go to the pvp zone. Deal with it 

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On 4/23/2021 at 12:47 PM, IvanGrozniy said:

 

In just one post we learn that

  1. toxicity is a binary designation
  2. you are the arbiter of truth and reality
  3. old farts are toxic
  4. you represent newbies (presumably by election)
  5. ...... :)

 

Jokes aside, okaaaay? If you notice, I generally don't talk about players when I'm criticizing DU, I talk about the game. It is game design that facilitates, encourages, and provides incentives for certain actions, even if the said game design is unintended or not apparently purposeful. Blaming people for playing a certain way in a sandbox is counter to the sandbox. Calling players toxic doesn't help, it's quite embarrassing actually, it usually means that when someone throws an "fu" at you, you are too weak to throw "fu" x 10 back at them (expression shamelessly stolen from a Siberian intellectual). Not all newbs are the same, they are here for different reasons. Most people here are very helpful to them if they need help figuring things out. Sly remarks about "admitting x" and "you know it but don't want to admit it" silliness doesn't help either. Those things are generally summarized in a term "not an argument". If you have one, provide it so we can discuss the argument. Discussing players is a slow burn to garbage drama.

 

I can fully understand where you are coming from and I understand what you are saying. But I'm not blaming, I'm re-hashing what others have said to me, as well as what I have personally seen with my own eyes.  Which is why I pointed this fact out to you, by showing at least one example. Go to the discord, and you'll see nothing but "bitter older players" as they themselves have called themselves. They are proud of this fact. It's no secret. And THAT in of itself IS the problem.

 

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On 4/23/2021 at 12:20 PM, blazemonger said:

I'm not really bitter though,


--SNIP--


Thing is, you did say that, to me in discord before I removed my discord channel. You were the one who gave me a key to play right after you said "Ignore us old bitter players".

I have since then taken all your advice and paid for an actual subscription.

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On 4/24/2021 at 2:30 AM, Lethys said:

Fixed it for you. 

Many other ppl find building boring. Or mining. Or crafting. Doesn't make it any more true or false. It's just ppls opinions.

 

DU was ALWAYS advertised as open world pvp with safezones. Noone forces you to go to the pvp zone. Deal with it 

As long as no resources are locked up in the PvP zones - then you are being forced to go if you want to create/build using those resources. And, yes, you can buy it but then you are back to the EVE paradigm where the big corps muscle in, rule the valuable ore zones and this is (mechanic wise) an EVE clone with cool building capabilities. 

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11 minutes ago, Cheith said:

and this is (mechanic wise) an EVE clone with cool building capabilities. 

 

An EVE clone with missing features, poor performance and with cool building possibilities in its current state. 

 

Fixed that for you.

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3 hours ago, SirJohn85 said:

 

An EVE clone with missing features, poor performance and with cool building possibilities in its current state. 

 

Fixed that for you.

True - but then if you go back a while (when EVE was young) there were many, many whines. It is what it is with new evolving games of any level of complexity and scale. Some figure it out, some don't. It will be nice if they do but we will see.

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I’m trying to understand how people will be forced to go to pvp zone? Safe zone triangle has up too T3 resources. If you don’t want to take the risk of going for the T4 / T5 resources then buy them off someone who is? I thought a major part of playing the PVE focused side of DU is the economy?

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3 hours ago, Cheith said:

True - but then if you go back a while (when EVE was young) there were many, many whines. It is what it is with new evolving games of any level of complexity and scale. Some figure it out, some don't. It will be nice if they do but we will see.

 

Back when Eve was being developed gaming was very different in terms of players and especially gaming industry. People were happy to play any shitty mmo. Now? ... there are many analogs of voxel builders being developed today, there are huge mmos being developed and or are already in ea or beta, it's a different world. You need to do much, much more than a mining and voxel building simulator in order to attract enough concurrent players to recuperate costs. And by more I don't necessary mean more mechanics, I mean quality.

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1 hour ago, IvanGrozniy said:

 

Back when Eve was being developed gaming was very different in terms of players and especially gaming industry. People were happy to play any shitty mmo. Now? ... there are many analogs of voxel builders being developed today, there are huge mmos being developed and or are already in ea or beta, it's a different world. You need to do much, much more than a mining and voxel building simulator in order to attract enough concurrent players to recuperate costs. And by more I don't necessary mean more mechanics, I mean quality.

100% agree. One of the dangers with 'early' beta release and crowd funding in general is exposing early and potentially short-lived mechanics that players decide they like but that cannot be implemented at scale. Danger of the funding mechanism and not managing the expectations.

 

The other big issue is making players think that their individual feedback is going to shape the game. It is the collective feedback that is important and the 'noisemakers' tend not to think about that. To be fair companies tend to do a bad job of publishing the collective feedback to keep such expectations under control, but also to be fair the vast, vast, vast majority of players have absolutely no idea of what is involved in building a game like this. Not even a clue. This was clear reading about the screen change discussions.

 

Now, this has nothing overly much to do with the PvP discussion - other than tangentially - but is important all the same!

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