Jump to content

Why PVP is important to the game.


Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Still can work if they get the safezones right and create valuable incentive to go outside the bubble tho. Maybe in 3 years or so, we will see

It’s just balancing to get it right.

 

I like ESO and fall back to it every now and then. They have a huge PvE environment and story etc. But they also have a completely seperate area where all the PvP folk can go and have fun. Sure new PvP players have to suffer through ten levels of PvE before they can enter the PvP zone, but apart from that they are off.

 

Every now and then a DLC will make it that the best kit for PvE is only available in the PvP area, or vice versa. But then it’s a matter of how much you want the absolutely best vs how much you want to avoid the other play style.

 

ED doesn’t has seperate zones, but they have it so you can play open, group or solo. Lots of huge PvE only group.

 

I really do hope they do get a good balance which doesn’t force PvE into PvP, but also gives PvP a fantastic game experience.

 

Right now I think one of the bigger issues is PvP sucks, and doesn’t scale. Probably why NQ started pushing the other aspects of the game for beta, because at least they kind of work.

 

On the bright side, the PvP guys look like they will get ship, and later probably avatar combat. PvE are only getting their community, building and maybe exploration. With still a hard no for NPCs, the PvE community won’t get any combat options. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CoyoteNZ said:

.... With still a hard no for NPCs, the PvE community won’t get any combat options. 

 

We get to shoot rocks :) And let's be honest if the PvE is like EVE rats then it is not that much different than shooting rocks unless you are careless!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2021 at 12:05 AM, Cheith said:

We get to shoot rocks :) And let's be honest if the PvE is like EVE rats then it is not that much different than shooting rocks unless you are careless!!

 

If consider belt rats in highsec than mostly yes. But the best faction modules come from low sec complexes that are about bit more than just F1,F2,F3..  same goes for some of the null sites

 

Also to Eve's benefit there multiple shades of PvE as well as PvP.   Same goes for Empire vs Nullsec gameplay. There's quite a bit of grading there too.  And it is this diversity that makes Eve interesting even 20 years after initial release.

 

PVP vs PVE isn't a zero sum game, nor it should be.  And NQ, should strive for such diversity, if it ever gets out if that development hell rutt.

 

For a full disclosure, among other specs i also  have rorqual pilot on one of my accounts, but having mining as the main downtime activity is the quicked road to burning out, be it eve or DU. 

 

In it's current state PVP in DU is a joke, and need LOTS of work, but PVE is just as important. (gotta love scanning down a pilot in the last room of plex just to take his prize 😈)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the end if the day, the vision and the pilars should have had a contribution from someone that understands human behavior. 

But instead, it was solely created by programmers. 

Pre alpha testers were all hardcore mmo players, making their feedback very narrow minded.. 

 

By the time some of us started pointing out the obvious flaws, JC had a cult behind him, believing his vision.. 

1 comment from our side was met with 5 from his vision. 

 

 

The recipe to make this game great was simple:

Copy empyrion, make it a mmo. 

 

But they managed to allways choose the wrong option every time a choice presented it self... 

 

Look at turrets in empyrion. Those shoot automatically. That would be a very good aproach to the look and shoot mechanism this mmo is limited to.. 

But instead, the pilot cannot handle weapons... 

Requires 10s reloading 

Requires 5s lock

Requires the player to look at the most artificial pvp screen ever made... 

The player does not have any usefull imput to give except manual clicking on stuff that should be automatic.... 

 

In empyrion the player gets near the enemy ship and turrets start shooting. BAM, BAM, BAM. Feels like a war. 

And players can even set priority targets(engines, weapons, etc) 

 

Its like they said: "players should not be having fun engaging in pvp"... 

 

Then they failed to copy the reason ppl still play empyrion: NPC content, story, quests....

 

Like if there was a rating about understanding human behavior, JC probably failed it.... 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like, how do we measure the fun level experienced by a gunner? 

Task 1 press reload

Task 2 press identify

Task 3 press lock

Task 4 press fire. 

Task 5 watch the battle happen as a total spectator that was not needed in anyway for this battle....

 

And you think someone will pay a subscription to spectate battle? Ppl already know the existence of youtube.... 

 

Just calculate how big will be the frustration of a lost battle for the gunner, having no input what so ever in the battle, seeing things unfold before his eyes powerless to do even a small effort to change the outcome. 

 

Now compare that with the joy he will experience having no part on the victory. 

 

Do you think this is sustainable? 

I dont.... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

Like, how do we measure the fun level experienced by a gunner? 

Task 1 press reload

Task 2 press identify

Task 3 press lock

Task 4 press fire. 

Task 5 watch the battle happen as a total spectator that was not needed in anyway for this battle....

 

And you think someone will pay a subscription to spectate battle? Ppl already know the existence of youtube.... 

 

Just calculate how big will be the frustration of a lost battle for the gunner, having no input what so ever in the battle, seeing things unfold before his eyes powerless to do even a small effort to change the outcome. 

 

Now compare that with the joy he will experience having no part on the victory. 

 

Do you think this is sustainable? 

I dont.... 

 

Well... I actually agree with this... 

 

Not streamable. Not ergonomic. Most importantly, not fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Bazzy_505 said:

 

If consider belt rats in highsec than mostly yes. But the best faction modules come from low sec complexes that are about bit more than just F1,F2,F3..  same goes for some of the null sites

 

Also to Eve's benefit there multiple shades of PvE as well as PvP.   Same goes for Empire vs Nullsec gameplay. There's quite a bit of grading there too.  And it is this diversity that makes Eve interesting even 20 years after initial release.

 

PVP vs PVE isn't a zero sum game, nor it should be.  And NQ, should strive for such diversity, if it ever gets out if that development hell rutt.

 

For a full disclosure, among other specs i also  have rorqual pilot on one of my accounts, but having mining as the main downtime activity is the quicked road to burning out, be it eve or DU. 

 

In it's current state PVP in DU is a joke, and need LOTS of work, but PVE is just as important. (gotta love scanning down a pilot in the last room of plex just to take his prize 😈)

I'll slightly disagree with you on the mining thing - in the end the quickest way to burn out is the game making you do too much of something you don't enjoy to get to where you want to be. If mining is your thing then there is no reason why it is a burn out - unless of course maybe it is the only thing and that would be the issue.

 

I did a bunch of complexes too - and certainly the top end ones were a different story but then most PvE players would neve see them as they are in, lets see, PvP spaces and running complexes where you can get ganked can be somewhat risky as then you have players plus rats - but that is somewhat off the point.

 

PvP may be a joke in DU (don't know, not done it) but unless you like to build and tinker with things or set up factories just because you can as a break from mining (which fortunately for me I do) then PvE is pretty much a joke too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO obviously...

 

If NQ can't make the PVP experience a more "real time" experience for performance reasons, they should decide to implement a more strategic gameplay for PVP. the current implementation is really more a controller style mode with some "real time" mechanics shoe-horned in and that is something I do not think will work all to well.

 

NQ needs to make up their mind and start working on what works within the confines of the game. They really are out of the time they might have had to keep experimenting with throwing stuff at the wall, hoping something will stick.

 

But I expect NQ will just keep being NQ and try to please everyone. And by doing so will please no one .. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, blazemonger said:

IMO obviously...

 

If NQ can't make the PVP experience a more "real time" experience for performance reasons, they should decide to implement a more strategic gameplay for PVP. the current implementation is really more a controller style mode with some "real time" mechanics shoe-horned in and that is something I do not think will work all to well.

 

NQ needs to make up their mind and start working on what works within the confines of the game. They really are out of the time they might have had to keep experimenting with throwing stuff at the wall, hoping something will stick.

 

But I expect NQ will just keep being NQ and try to please everyone. And by doing so will please no one .. 

 

Yeah, they should maybe make a more strategy game style for PVP battles, where you see your ships in a quasi 3D / isometric view. In that case even I would partake in PVP :)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/8/2021 at 2:56 AM, joaocordeiro said:

Like, how do we measure the fun level experienced by a gunner? 

Task 1 press reload

Task 2 press identify

Task 3 press lock

Task 4 press fire. 

Task 5 watch the battle happen as a total spectator that was not needed in anyway for this battle....

 

And you think someone will pay a subscription to spectate battle? Ppl already know the existence of youtube.... 

 

Just calculate how big will be the frustration of a lost battle for the gunner, having no input what so ever in the battle, seeing things unfold before his eyes powerless to do even a small effort to change the outcome. 

 

Now compare that with the joy he will experience having no part on the victory. 

 

Do you think this is sustainable? 

I dont.... 

 

It's not much better for pilots I believe.

PvP has to be fun.

It has to be exciting.

It has to be fast.

 

Even flying in space is not actually that much fun. Straight forward. Flying on Madis is more exciting.

 

You're not gonna drag lots of PvPers if PvP is that slow.

But if you want to drag some guys in, you'll have to rethink the way space flight works, because that starts from here. The way ships fly will determine how fights will occur and how fun they would be.

 

It's a player based game, in space, so that's no big deal I often see Star Wars look a like ship almost everywhere. You can bet those guys want to PvP Star Wars style.  not click 1 wait... clik 2... wait... click 3... DEAD

 

The general idea behind PvP, claiming territories, ressources, mining, is pretty good, all of them can bond together really nicely and set up for a great game. But base mechanics have to be great for it to work.

 

I doubt DU would be a worse game if you didn't have to put engines in every directions to be able to move up/down right/left with ease and do sharp turns. Who really cares about that? I get the point of having engineers being able to technologically best another one, but you still don't have to go this extend to be able to do it.

 

So to sum this up, I'd say they've pushed it a bit too far regarding the game, sometimes arcade style is quite fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WildBunny said:

PvP has to be fun.

It has to be exciting.

It has to be fast.

 

Yes, but "fun" is subjective

Yes, but still subjective

Why?

 

DU is a game based around a low tick server tech, it has massive built in latency to be able to support the core functions of the game. In that context a fast paced PVP style simply will never work.

 

I really feel that too many have expectations from the PVP implementation in DU that simply can not ever be met in a reliable way. NQ has really not been able to set the correct expectations and at the same time recognize that what they have been trying to make work regarding combat PVP for a long time now simply will not deliver the expected outcome.

 

My expectations are that combat PVP will move much more towards strategic gameplay, almost turn based, than towards more action based. And I absolutely believe that this change can still be fun and exciting. Realistically speaking the whole periscope idea is just not effective, it presents challenges that are extremely hard, if not impossible to overcome. And realistically, combat in the context of a game like DU would mostly be conducted as a controller, not as a participant on/in the field and your information would be symbols and data on a screen, not a visual of the target.

 

Would that approach turn away certain players? Yes, it would for sure but at the same time these players would eventually be disappointed anyway as what they expect is simply not going to be achievable so why waste time and resources on something that you know will not work in the end, just to appease those that will eventually leave anyway. This is a concept that appears to be missed by the NQ game designers and managers who decide what the developers are tasked to do.

 

Moving to a more strategic approach would, especially when combined with other mechanics to achieve this, shift the potential player base more in the direction of RP style gameplay and that is market which is largely untapped but massive with often mature and financially secure players who are able and willing to sink time and money into their hobby. And the RP community at large is _very_ hungry for a proper SciFi style playground.

 

I honestly believe that DU as a proper MMORPG has a far better chance of success than as an attempted FPS-MMO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

My expectations are that combat PVP will move much more towards strategic gameplay, almost turn based, than towards more action based

 

Sure but that still has to be fun. 

 

Player will need to have strategic options with variation. Not a predetermined outcome and then some pseudo options that will not affect the outcome in any meaningful way. Like current ammo type...... 

 

Also, the concentration of battle success in a small group of ppl while the the majority of players experience losses, will be a problem independent of the game being a point and shoot or a strategy game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

As said, "Has to be fun" is subjective. What is fun for some is boring for others. 

 

In case it was not clear, the point I tried to make was yes, it needs to be fun but a the same time, it needs to be realistically achievable and by that it is implied that for the game to work, the eventual outcome will not be "fun" for some who currently have their expectations set for something that NQ will simply not be able to deliver on and so, NQ should not try and cater to what they have to know will not be possible in the end as that will result in no one having "fun" and the player base they try to please leaving anyway.

That said, the 17th June will probably resolve that, at least in part, for NQ. It will make it easier for them to make what I believe will be the the right choice once SB releases.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We keep hearing they are working on a PvP overhaul. I really hope they don’t mean just make it run a little better. This would make the current system better, but it wouldn’t make it good.

 

There are already good games out there for space combat, you can do reasonable fun things in Elite. If you want to do it with your own custom made ship there is Starbase.

 

NQ aren’t going to compete with those games or their studios budgets. If you aim it towards teenagers with twitching fingers and fast reflexes you are very quickly going to be dropped as soon as the next PvP space game comes along and they move.

 

So they need to determine a place in the market to fill which as others stated above can be achieved with their technology.

 

They also need to look at the other aspects of the game, therefore their gamers and try to link it in.

 

We have a lot of builders and designers. So try to make a system where the build and design of your ship actually has relevance. Try to make it so their isn’t a one ship/meta that is only one to work. Make it so design designs are important for everything from how much you can carry to how long you can tank your way through an attack to your hit power.

 

I as well believe a more strategic combat system would be the way to go. Already there are dogfights in space games. Try to come up with good strategy which can be influenced by talents, player actual skill and ship design decisions.

 

I don’t PvP so my opinion is probably less than others, but I enjoy PvE and many of the problems they are facing would be the same if that was to be introduced. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...