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Will this be another Cyberpunk 2077 disaster?


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Funny you mentioned Dual Universe and Cyberpunk 2077 together...after playing and enjoying Dual Universe I was more eager to try Cyberpunk 2077 - now that I knew that I could stomach first person games. Cyberpunk 2077 was already on my radar but I was more hesitant to try it because of the first person. My hesitation disappeared after playing DU.  

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It'd be more fair to compare it to "No Man's Sky" -- an indie game marketed with bold promises and "exaggerated" ads that failed to match the final product.

 

Like NMS, NQ is still pushing ads that they know don't match the actual product. They're selling a promise, not a real product.

 

I don't think it's a fair comparison to CP2077, which was made by a big studio with real resources and a lot of experience. For anyone that thinks DU is "so much more complicated", no...you can't compare running off AWS with an off the shelf Unigen2 engine to creating a game and engine at this level. Apples and oranges. 

 

Both NMS and CP2077 have something in common: devs that are willing to own up to their mistakes.

 

CDPR issued apologies and refund offers -- they know they'll need to work very hard to earn back trust and players with future patches (personally think the game is fantastic, but my hardware runs it fine). Hello Games learned to resist the hype machine and let their work speak for itself. 

 

I don't get the same sense of humility and urgency from NQ...granted their product is pre-release, but they don't seem interested in earning back customers or apologizing or learning at all. Their 0.23 note was basically "meh, here's why we are right..."

 

They've already dismissed us forum folk as negative "old school" people with nothing constructive to say -- they'd rather focus their community efforts on reddit where people only post pics of their creations and downvote anything negative.

 

NQ isn't mature as a company and it shows not just in their product, but their entire philosophy when it comes to customer communication and outreach. 

 

Like always, NQ needs to learn from other examples in the industry instead of retreating into their shells to avoid the very criticism that beta testing is supposed to elicit. 

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1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

But all it really boils down to is to actually just talk to people like normal people. You at NQ, normal people. Us community, normal people. Just talk with us like we're all normal people here. That's all we ever asked for, and never happened until now.


That's all it is, Bobbie! You nailed it. :) Our 'style' is just... normal, empathetic conversation. (Unless we're dishing out super formal information, like a warning or big announcement.)

 

2 hours ago, michaelk said:

They've already dismissed us forum folk as negative "old school" people with nothing constructive to say -- they'd rather focus their community efforts on reddit where people only post pics of their creations and downvote anything negative.

That's certainly not how we view it, I can guarantee you that. The fans who post here on the forums are incredibly insightful. :) 

Each of DUs social (community) spaces has their own little ecosystem. There's something for every player personality, and that's valuable to us:

  • Forum posters tend to be more technically minded and informed about industry practices, enjoy writing long-form/thoughtful feedback pieces and more often than not have been around since the beginning of the project. The overall vibe I get is similar to walking into a library - it's a quieter, more studious atmosphere. Forums are an amazing place to house information long-term, and I personally really enjoy them. (A large part of my personal enjoyment comes from how well forums showcase people's personalities! I think it's one of the better places to bond and have meaningful conversations.)
  • Discord is excellent for allowing NQ to take a quick community "temperature" check! If we want to see how any one thing is affecting fans in-the-moment, Discord is a great place to look to make a fast assessment. (The next step after that is to come here and see that "temperature" elaborated upon.) Discord is also great for general fun/joking around, and for spreading key information rapidly.
  • Reddit falls somewhere in between the forums and Discord. It's a widely popular, easily accessible platform that tends to attract newer players, which provides NQ with the opportunity to better understand the new player journey. It has its own chat feature and also allows for long and thoughtful posts, though it seems to be used mostly to showcase builds/ask general questions. The demographic that posts to Reddit skews a bit younger and tends to have their fingers in more than one gaming pie, which enables us to keep tabs on what else might be grabbing fans' attention in the gaming world.
  • I personally view platforms like Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & Youtube as belonging to Marketing first and foremost. Those are spaces where NQ can promote DU, not necessarily where we as a community team might go to source important feedback. (Occasionally we'll get the odd constructive Youtube comment, but that's fairly rare.)

So as you can see, every space provides NQ with something meaningful. We pull insights from each space to compare, contrast and ultimately develop a well rounded picture of how our players think and feel. They're all important to us for different reasons. No one space is better than another - just different!

 

Now to address the title of this thread: "Will this be another Cyberpunk 2077 disaster?" The short answer is "in all likelihood, no. Thank goodness." ;) 

 

You can make some loose comparisons I'm sure, but DU and Cyberpunk (and the companies that created them) are very different beasts. If you're interested, I encourage you guys to check out an in-depth article I read earlier about the Cyberpunk situation: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/19/style/cyberpunk-2077-video-game-disaster.html
 

NQ has certainly encountered some growing pains (that's no secret!), but we're working through them. Even in the short time I've been here, I have seen growth! ❤️ Take for instance the following is official communication from us: 
 

Quote

We tried to nudge people out of this with the changes introduced in 0.23. While necessary, many players expressed that the changes of 0.23 came too soon because it lacked a variety of lucrative ways for people to make money outside of mining.

This is in direct response to a large majority who felt we did "too much too soon" with 0.23. We agree! We hear you, we see you, we are going to try something different next time.
 

Quote

The release of 0.23 also taught us that we need improved ways to test new features, both internally and with community participation. The Upvote feature on the website was a good start, but it’s not enough. 

This is JC saying that, while we tried our very best, in terms of testing new features we fell short this time. We will and are making improvements on this front, which hopefully means 0.24 will be a vastly improved experience for all. :) 

 

(Those quotes were taken directly from this post, for those who are curious to read more.)

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28 minutes ago, NQ-Naunet said:

This is JC saying that, while we tried our very best, in terms of testing new features we fell short this time. We will and are making improvements on this front, which hopefully means 0.24 will be a vastly improved experience for all. :) 

 

It's a shame that after over three years, it took NQ actually falling on their face in public for this to (hopefully) become clear to the company and it's head huncho.. It's been a pattern with NQ since we started this journey but as until now this was covered up by the comfy cloak of NDA, NQ could pretend it was all good and "we were just not seeing the bigger picture" while the company assured itself they were right and we (as backers) were wrong.

 

Had NQ taken these lesson to heart sooner we would probably be further along in development at this time and while I will give you guys the benefit of the doubt here once more, I've seen and heard these words several times before while the actions really never happened from the side of NQ so you have everything to prove here and we'll see.

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

 

It's a shame that after over three years, it took NQ actually falling on their face in public for this to (hopefully) become clear to the company and it's head huncho.. It's been a pattern with NQ since we started this journey but as until now this was covered up by the comfy cloak of NDA, NQ could pretend it was all good and "we were just not seeing the bigger picture" while the company assured itself they were right and we (as backers) were wrong.

 

Had NQ taken these lesson to heart sooner we would probably be further along in development at this time and while I will give you guys the benefit of the doubt here once more, I've seen and heard these words several times before while the actions really never happened from the side of NQ so you have everything to prove here and we'll see.


Even though historical context is important, all we can reasonably do is move forward. We've taken our 40 lashes with a wet noodle, and acknowledged that our backers were not wrong.

 

Time will tell! :) 

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Hey folks who claim that CP77 is such a BIG game w/o any performance problems: Sony took it off from their online sales page. A giant like Sony wouldn't do it w/o reasons. This means that CP77 IS a disaster. Much worse than Non Man's Sky after its launch. At least, it was playable.

This is what I'm referring to: DU is giving me something like 30 fps at most (with alot of stuttering and very poor graphics quality at the same time) with a mere 3 fps in the starting area. What exactly is "going on" in the starting area given the fact that I can hardly see anyone there?

For me it looks like that the number of objects in a certain area has a DRASTIC impact on performance/fps. Not the number of ppl there.

As long as NQ in not addressing this performance issue, DU is dead. Do you really believe that the majority of gamers is taking 3 fps (or even 30 fps with stuttering, on a decent PC, that is) withount complaining? This is the MAIN point NQ has to address immediately before even THINKING to introduce new features or alter existing ones.

As I said in my OP: I was very interested in the beginning, but NQ wasn't able to meet expectations and focussed on wrong subjects. Playability is most important, however, not on rigs costing you $2.5K or above. They are going to make the same mistakes as the developers of CP77.

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3 hours ago, Haunty said:

but you certainly don't want generations-old hardware. And if you think DU performance is bad now, you should've seen it before the more recent improvements.

a) What do you consider to be "generations-old hardware"? Could you pls get more precise? My specs, as listed in my OP, are to be treated as old hardware?? Wow. With this attitude the game is dead already.

b) I am glad that I didn't see it before recent improvements. Just b/c it was even worse before doesn't make poor performance look better. What kind of "argument" is this??

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10 hours ago, NQ-Naunet said:

Even though historical context is important, all we can reasonably do is move forward. We've taken our 40 lashes with a wet noodle, and acknowledged that our backers were not wrong.

Time will tell! :) 

 

True, true, good and yes ;)

 

It's encouraging to see the changes in the CM department over the past months. How that translates down the pipe into the company is what remains to be seen.. Let's hope for the best and a positive change by NQ in this regard. The work and input from the CM team is appreciated for sure!

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17 hours ago, NQ-Naunet said:

This is in direct response to a large majority who felt we did "too much too soon" with 0.23. We agree! We hear you, we see you, we are going to try something different next time.

I would say 0.23 was mostly an issue of the changes not being balanced. Meaning you cannot totally change a core aspect of a game without additional changes that keep the overall balance in place. And the main gripe I think many have, is why NQ did not see this obvious problem with the patch in the first place (does NQ actually play the game?). Granted hindsight is always 20/20, but still.

 

And a sadly a recurring theme here is that... Faster and smaller iterative changes instead of infrequent large patches with lots of changes (and bugs), is something we (early testers) have been asking for since the beginning.

 

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On 12/23/2020 at 8:21 AM, CptLoRes said:

I would say 0.23 was mostly an issue of the changes not being balanced. Meaning you cannot totally change a core aspect of a game without additional changes that keep the overall balance in place. And the main gripe I think many have, is why NQ did not see this obvious problem with the patch in the first place (does NQ actually play the game?). Granted hindsight is always 20/20, but still.

 

And a sadly a recurring theme here is that... Faster and smaller iterative changes instead of infrequent large patches with lots of changes (and bugs), is something we (early testers) have been asking for since the beginning.

 

And so it appears a majority of us later subscribers also agree with.

 

If one person says you have a tail, you can laugh and ignore it. But if three or more people say the same thing, you better turn around and look.

 

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On 12/22/2020 at 9:01 PM, NQ-Naunet said:

Now to address the title of this thread: "Will this be another Cyberpunk 2077 disaster?" The short answer is "in all likelihood, no. Thank goodness." ;)

Well, let's keep our fingers crossed. As soon as NQ starts to address the performance issues I tend to believe you. However, if you keep changing game balances and add new features without FIRST making sure that the game is PLAYABLE in the first place, I question your statement.

It is now up to NQ to prove your statement. With the next major update. If not, you risk to lose confidence.

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Lol. 

 

I wish this was like cyberpunk. 

Cyberpunk only failed on releasing the game full of stupid small bugs. 

But it is still a great game. 

I was lucky to get it for pc(the least buggy version) 

And yes i saw all sorts for bugs and crashes. Had to save every 30 secs to make sure a game bug would not roll me back 2 hours. 

And i was kind of disapointed with the damage system. But then i found out about hacks and it kind of compensated. 

 

That said, cyberpunk is a dramatic masterpiece. 

The city colors, the quests rich with story, the horror, the hope, the rage, the sadness, the joy. 

At the end of game i felt like i lost a close friend.

(I definitely recommend ppl to play it for the story) 

 

What does DU have to compensate the bugs?

Does it have story? Quests? Hope? Joy? 

Does it make us feel something besides boredom or grief? 

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1 hour ago, Deintus said:

Pretty voxel ships?

 

Lots of ppl betting on that. But can designing pretty voxel ships be a lasting objective?

What ever the answer is, its not my type of game. I like to feel rewarded emotionally when i make a good decision on a game. I dont feed on other ppl grief to get satisfaction. 

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On 12/19/2020 at 11:22 PM, Atmosph3rik said:

The thing is, DU is the kind of game where your framerate really isn't that big of a deal anyway.  Sure it's always nice to have 60fps.  But this isn't a fast paced shooter, or a racing game.  lower fps isn't going to stop you from doing anything.

Not really true. Try landing at 10 fps. You'll see the difference quick.

 

DU is built on Unigene engine, and to quote JC himself, "nothing works out of the box for us".

 

So yes, performance is very important. Setting up industry in a lag fest just makes me want to play something else. Piloting in low fps is a disaster. The fact that so much resources are taken up just in the starting zone with almost no players around Is a telling sign there is something really wrong with game performance, not the least of which is they have failed to decouple cpu and gpu processes.

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On 12/23/2020 at 12:26 AM, blazemonger said:

It's encouraging to see the changes in the CM department over the past months. How that translates down the pipe into the company is what remains to be seen.. Let's hope for the best and a positive change by NQ in this regard. The work and input from the CM team is appreciated for sure

Notice that it is Naunet saying this... and while this is Naunet's job, I have never seen anyone at NQ say things like this... granted I haven't looked at all of the history of these forums but... you get the point..

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On 12/20/2020 at 1:06 AM, Thugaar said:

I was very excited back in the days when DU was initially announced and NQ made all these performance tests regarding the number of Nouveans being simulated/rendered at the same time.

 

I just played (tried to play) the tutorial in the latest beta release and I must say that I am very disappointed. I have a quite decent rig (GTX 1060 w/ 6GB, 16 GB RAM, i7-4770) which is for sure not top edge technology but which can run No Man's Sky with a steady 60 to 70 fps.

And then this in DU when playing the tutorial:  A maximum of 35 fps, stuttering all the time, very poor graphics, and sometimes even dropping down to a mere 3 (!) fps. Is this real? Yes, this is still beta, however, before even thinking of introducing new features or screwing on balancing issues,

NQ HAS TO FIRST MAKE THE GAME PLAYABLE!

I won't touch this game anymore before NQ comes up with DRASTIC performance improvements. I regret having bought the game in advance. Sorry, this currently looks like another Cyberpunk 2077 desaster. 😢

You are running DU with a System (GTX 1060) which is set as "minimum requirements" from official site.
Minimum requirements usually mean you can start the game/application, but you wont have a smooth experience.
Below the minimum requirements you often arent even able to start the application without crashes or freezes.

 

The minimum requirements of No man sky is a gtx 480. So that explains that. :)

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On 12/23/2020 at 9:10 AM, NQ-Naunet said:


Even though historical context is important, all we can reasonably do is move forward. We've taken our 40 lashes with a wet noodle, and acknowledged that our backers were not wrong.

 

Time will tell! :) 

I am glad NQ are responding more actively. Hopefully you remember this lesson.

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On 12/19/2020 at 6:06 PM, Thugaar said:

I was very excited back in the days when DU was initially announced and NQ made all these performance tests regarding the number of Nouveans being simulated/rendered at the same time.

 

I just played (tried to play) the tutorial in the latest beta release and I must say that I am very disappointed. I have a quite decent rig (GTX 1060 w/ 6GB, 16 GB RAM, i7-4770) which is for sure not top edge technology but which can run No Man's Sky with a steady 60 to 70 fps.

And then this in DU when playing the tutorial:  A maximum of 35 fps, stuttering all the time, very poor graphics, and sometimes even dropping down to a mere 3 (!) fps. Is this real? Yes, this is still beta, however, before even thinking of introducing new features or screwing on balancing issues,

NQ HAS TO FIRST MAKE THE GAME PLAYABLE!

I won't touch this game anymore before NQ comes up with DRASTIC performance improvements. I regret having bought the game in advance. Sorry, this currently looks like another Cyberpunk 2077 desaster. 😢

So first off its still beta, so the game is not optimized.  I too have a great gaming rig, runs everything but crysis at max LOL. It is the starting area in general, So many players have left ships, voxels, and all sorts of trash all over the place, where it is like its trying to render a million objects at one time. SO LAG FEST at main starting planets market, you still get lag outside that area from time to time, nothing a delete cache wont fix.  I actually find DELETEING CACHE before logging in, will make the start area pretty playable without lag. but after the game starts to suck up all the info in the area, then the lag starts to happen again. 

 

They plan on removing all these parked object eventually. Because its just like a giant scrap yard...of peoples crap ships, wrecks, etc just sitting there. Like a maze navigation getting in and out of some markets. BUT ALSO AGAIN ITS BETA!

 

as for the CYBERPUNK 2077 FAIL- that is all the gamers fault, they said not ready push back, like 2-3 times, and wanted to push it back again becasue it was not fully ready.... But the gamers were pissing and moaning for it to be released...so they finally gave in, along with trying to cash in on the holiday season, and not waiting yet another year, and eating the losses from it. that tied to PS5 launch....so they bit the bullet, released it to shut gamers up, and to make back some money spent...and well....gamers got what they begged for.....even though they said they really wanted to push it back again....but they were under lots of pressure from all sides...

 

hopefully NQ gets this game right, before full launch... like No destruction PVE parts, better mining, different kinds of grinds for the quanta, instead of  99% mining.... 

 

cause right now this is how it goes.

 

1. mine rocks on the ground while getting better mining skills. sell rocks to market bots.

2. buy parts to build ship that can hold more rocks from differnt areas on planet.

3. now mine some more, for more rocks, just a bit more efficiently.  while more skills train. and selling rocks and ore nodes found from skills.

4. Buy bigger parts to make bigger ship that can carry more ORE FROM NODES ONLY NOW.....casue your mid level mining.

5. Mine more, and more, to sell to bots on market, while more mining skills train to really give you some distance deep ground mining to get those MINI MEGA NODES..or MEGAS that you run across.

6. USE THAT MONEY - to BUILD A REALLY GOOD HAULER TO CARRY LOTS OF ORE, AND NOW SCAN TO FIND THE MEGA NODES, and MINI MEGAS so you can mine those some more. to sell to bots to make money. while more the rest of your mining skills start to max out, and inventory skills ect.

7. TO MAKE WARP CAPABLE HAULER TO TRAVEL TO OTHER WORLDS...SO YOU CAN DIG HOLES TO MINE NODES DEEP UNDERGROUND BUT ON ANOTHER PLANET....YAY END GAME!

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On 12/19/2020 at 7:06 PM, Thugaar said:

I was very excited back in the days when DU was initially announced and NQ made all these performance tests regarding the number of Nouveans being simulated/rendered at the same time.

 

I just played (tried to play) the tutorial in the latest beta release and I must say that I am very disappointed. I have a quite decent rig (GTX 1060 w/ 6GB, 16 GB RAM, i7-4770) which is for sure not top edge technology but which can run No Man's Sky with a steady 60 to 70 fps.

And then this in DU when playing the tutorial:  A maximum of 35 fps, stuttering all the time, very poor graphics, and sometimes even dropping down to a mere 3 (!) fps. Is this real? Yes, this is still beta, however, before even thinking of introducing new features or screwing on balancing issues,

NQ HAS TO FIRST MAKE THE GAME PLAYABLE!

I won't touch this game anymore before NQ comes up with DRASTIC performance improvements. I regret having bought the game in advance. Sorry, this currently looks like another Cyberpunk 2077 desaster. 😢

Cyberpunk is the game I got a slight gpu upgrade for, grabbed more ram for, only to uninstall it fairlyquickly. (it ran fine, but it wasn't what I thought it would be, is imho a total mess and was a complete waste of money) (no I can't get a refund)

Dual universe is the game I found directly after and grabbed a sub for.

I have a processor that fits mid way into the lower end, the min req GPU, and 8 more gigs of ram than the min requires, and the game is unplayable.

It isn't even close. It easing up supposedly once i leave an area with a lot of things isn't really reassuring because that's part of the point of playing.
If I wanted it that way I'd go play some single player similar game.
I can no longer be trusted to buy my own games and do my due research on things.
I'm now going to go play an old school rts and wonder why I'm like this, lol

 

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9 hours ago, Eightprism said:

Cyberpunk is the game I got a slight gpu upgrade for, grabbed more ram for, only to uninstall it fairlyquickly. (it ran fine, but it wasn't what I thought it would be, is imho a total mess and was a complete waste of money) (no I can't get a refund)

Dual universe is the game I found directly after and grabbed a sub for.

I have a processor that fits mid way into the lower end, the min req GPU, and 8 more gigs of ram than the min requires, and the game is unplayable.

It isn't even close. It easing up supposedly once i leave an area with a lot of things isn't really reassuring because that's part of the point of playing.
If I wanted it that way I'd go play some single player similar game.
I can no longer be trusted to buy my own games and do my due research on things.
I'm now going to go play an old school rts and wonder why I'm like this, lol

 

That’s too bad. I feel I have already got my money’s worth from both games. I played maybe 1000 hours of DU since the first alpha and am on hiatus playing CP2077. Currently 100 hours played. 


$300 spent on DU for 1000 hours and $50 for 100 hours in ‘77 is much better value than hookers and blow and less likely to end up catching something nasty. 

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