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How .23 should have been.


Zekain
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Look, the majority of your player base does not like this patch. and you should be more than aware of it. There were things that could have been done, things that have been suggested on here a multitude of times in the past. This patch... despite your Discord Q&A, and all of your live streams, all it showed us is that you simply did not listen to your player base, or their ideas. We are the beta testers, and we have given our feedback on so many, if not all of the currently available  aspects, and tools of the game which could increase the enjoyability for everyone.

 

your testers are leaving. I've seen several people  cancel their subscription, myself included. My sub ends on JAN 11 2021, and from how things are looking, I do not think Ill be resubbing after that date. However it isn't too late. There are other updates which could fix this, patches that can draw DU's community back to the game. After watching your discord, the forums, and talking to so many other players from in game, and on other discord servers. I think I can summarize the changes needed which could bring some the faith back to DU's community.
 

1: SCHEMATICS: Now I want to say this first. Schematics are not inherently bad, however the way it has been implemented is the biggest problem we have here. It was implemented to bring value to intermediate parts, and to suck money out of the world. You want to have players buy them off of the market. you want the market to be used, correct? There were better ways to handle this problem. 

Schematics can stay, but not for everything. By placing them on absolutely every item that we can produced through a factory unit, you have effectively placed a ransomware on your own game. We cant do anything anymore without forking over absurd amounts of cash to get access to the game. This is not a model for any level of play. New comer's will be turned away from this, and more experienced players will simply give up on the game, which they have done.

Basic Items of all types should be free of schematics. Doing this allows everyone to at least experience the core  aspects of DU. we can build, fly around and explore. DU can feel like a game again, and not a second virtual job. 

Schematics can be on everything else. Military engines, advanced, or uncommon parts, advanced weapons. Everything that isn't tier 1 should have a schematic in order to give your player base a goal, a reason to want to improve, to invest time into DU. (but maybe release tier 1 weapons as civilian weapons that need T1 and T2 ores only.  just so that newbies can get the feel of how combat works in this game, yea?)

2:RECYCLERS AND SCRAP: recyclers are sitting In a weird spot, right? they only have 2 uses. To make scrap, and to pump out gasses. These two simple jobs makes recyclers relatively useless in the grander scheme of the game when compared to all of the other industry elements. What if they didn't have to be? what if they could be redesigned to be one of the most important industrial units in the game, and provide a way to fuel the economy in way we currently cannot reproduce on our own through emergent gameplay? What if.... they could... Recycle? 

 

Scrap as it stands now was an OK Method to repair our elements in the earlier days of this game. but those days are long gone, and you need a reason for the market to exist, you need a reason for people to sell small parts, intermediate parts on these markets! Ok. We can do that, and recyclers are the answer. Allow recyclers to break down elements, and damaged elements with less that 3, or 5 repairs left. Allow the amount of "lives" of an element determine how many intermediate components a recycler can pull out of any particular element. Allow it to be random in which parts are chosen. For example, if you recycle one space engine, you get the ionic chamber, and a few screws. If you recycle a second one, you could get the reinforced frame, and a burner or two. It could also produce scrap still!  Scrap can come in the form of a useless item that needs to be further broken down to remake pure metals. But wait. what will we use to repair our elements if  scrap becomes useless? INTERMEDIATE PARTS!

look at Space engineers for inspiration. we use components to repair their broken blocks. You do not need to equip the parts you need, the welding tool simply pulls the correct parts out of your inventory, and applies them to the damaged block until it is repaired! Its simple, its elegant, and immersive. Doing this creates not only an actual engineering role for crew members, but it creates salvagers, recycling plants dedicated to breaking down old parts. It creates jobs in DU that people can take their roll in, and  enjoy. This can be even furthered with skills to make recyclers more efficient at pulling out parts, and breaking down elements faster.

 

Intermediate  parts will be in high demand  on the markets after this because they are NEEDED to repair elements as opposed to scrap. 

PS: make cores repairable with intermediate parts too. larger dynamic cores are already hard to make, having the ability to restore them with the rare parts they require would be a nice thing to have. 

 

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imho the problem with industry isn't solved by schematics, it's just pushed back.

 

The problem was the "zero cost" of producing: once you have your machines (refiners, smelters, ..., assembly lines) you don't need power , fuel or whatever to use them. You have no upkeep at all. You just need to input ores.

 

That's why even a solo player could gradually build and use a huge industry: what he already has cost nothing to run.

 

That's why ores were more valuable than their contribution in final products: because it cost nothing to transform them once you have the industry so for instance 10L of hematite are worth more their ratio in <whatever is made with 10L of hematite> because they are less 'specialized'. 

 

Schematics don't solve that. It's a band-aid, a bad one. Their timing is bad. The implementation is sloppy and it adds unneeded complexity (talents and tiers of machines). In a few weeks the situation will be the same but a lot of players will be gone.

 

Running costs (power, fuel, fees, whatever) was what was needed. And they said it's planned so why not wait till then ?

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Kirth Gersen said:

Schematics don't solve that. It's a band-aid, a bad one. 

That's what really annoys me - whenever people defend it as a change that was needed for the long term health of the game....

 

It's nonsense. In the long term everyone who ever wanted to do industry will have ground enough to have all the schematics. All that was added was the time sink to get them. You can still do the same thing you could before. Now you just have to grind a lot first - but a year from now we'll be back to where we started. Same mega factories. Just a whole lot of time wasted to get them running again.

 

This patch did nothing but add way more tedious grinding to a game that was already mostly tedious grinding. This should have been obvious to the devs. It was obvious to the players who left this feedback - https://dualuniverse.featureupvote.com/suggestions/122819/recipes-as-items-industry-balancing  and yet it got pushed out anyway....

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

That's what really annoys me - whenever people defend it as a change that was needed for the long term health of the game....

 

It's nonsense. In the long term everyone who ever wanted to do industry will have ground enough to have all the schematics. All that was added was the time sink to get them. You can still do the same thing you could before. Now you just have to grind a lot first - but a year from now we'll be back to where we started. Same mega factories. Just a whole lot of time wasted to get them running again.

 

This patch did nothing but add way more tedious grinding to a game that was already mostly tedious grinding. This should have been obvious to the devs. It was obvious to the players who left this feedback - https://dualuniverse.featureupvote.com/suggestions/122819/recipes-as-items-industry-balancing  and yet it got pushed out anyway....

 

 

In total agreement. And the way I see it, especially after the latest discord, expect many more resets and grinding ahead. I see no real attempt to take the communities opinions into consideration, only token changes to keep enough people hanging on to fund some end product whose vision I am not understanding in the least with the broad responses I saw.

 

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Market is already back, only the progress is slowed and items are dumped again into the market because stockholders want factories resumed, and its ok. The only reason players are not happy is mainly due to the decisions they took in the past. We all play the same game and if 30 days player "has" more than 100 days player, its clearly poorly player experience.

0.23 will have more added value in the future not now. We just need more pvp to get the items out from market back into the game, flying in space.

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1 hour ago, Zekain said:

Look, the majority of your player base does not like this patch. and you should be more than aware of it. There were things you could have been  done, things that have been suggested on here a multitude of times in the past. This patch... despite your Discord Q&A showed that you simply did not listen to your player base, or their ideas. We are the beta testers, and we have given our feedback on so many, if not all of the currently available  aspects of the game which could increase the enjoyability for everyone.

 

your testers are leaving. I've seen several people  cancel their subscription, myself included. My sub ends on JAN 11 2021, and from how things are looking, I do not think Ill be resubbing after that date. However it isn't too late. There are other updates which could fix this, patches that can draw DU's community back to the game. After watching your discord, the forums, and talking to so many other players from in game, and on other discord servers. I think I can summarize the changes needed which could bring the faith back to DU's community.
 

1: SCHEMATICS: Now I want to say this first. Schematics are not inherently bad, however the way it has been implemented is the biggest problem we have here. It was implemented to bring value to intermediate parts. You want to have players buy them off of the market. you want the market to be used, correct? There were better ways to handle this problem. 

Schematics can stay, but not for everything. By placing them on absolutely every item that we can produce through a factory unit, you have effectively placed a ransomware on your own game. We cant do anything anymore without forking over absurd amounts of cash to get access to the game. This is not a good thing for any level of play. New comer's will be turned away from this, and more experienced players will simply give up on the game, which they have done.

Basic Items of all types should be free of schematics. Doing this allows everyone to at least experience the core  aspects of DU. we can build, fly around and explore. DU can feel like a game again, and not a second virtual job. 

Schematics can be on everything else. Military engines, advanced, or uncommon parts, advanced weapons. Everything that isn't tier 1 should have a schematic in order to give your player base a goal, a reason to want to improve. (but maybe release tier 1 weapons as civilian weapons that need T1 and T2 ores only.  just so that newbies can get the feel of how combat works in this game, yea?)

2:RECYCLERS AND SCRAP: recyclers are sitting In a weird spot, right? they only have 2 uses. To make scrap, and to pump out gasses. These two simple jobs makes recyclers relatively useless in the grander scheme of the game when compared to all of the other industry elements. What if they didn't have to be? what if they could be redesigned to be one of the most important industrial units in the game, and provide a way to fuel the economy in way we currently cannot reproduce on our own through emergent gameplay? What if.... they could... Recycle? 

 

Scrap as it stands now was an OK Method to repair our elements in the earlier days of this game. but those days are long gone, and you need a reason for the market to exist, you need a reason for people to sell small parts, intermediate parts on these markets! Ok. We can do that, and recyclers are the answer. Allow recyclers to break down elements, and damaged elements with less that 3, or 5 repairs left. Allow the amount of "lives" of an element determine how many intermediate components a recycler can pull out of any particular element. Allow it to be random in which parts are chosen. For example, if you recycle one space engine, you get the ionic chamber, and a few screws. If you recycle a second one, you could get the reinforced frame, and a burner or two. It could also produce scrap still!  Scrap can come in the form of a useless item that needs to be further broken down to remake pure metals. But wait. what will we use to repair our elements if  scrap becomes useless? INTERMEDIATE PARTS!

look at Space engineers for inspiration. we use components to repair their broken blocks. You do not need to equip the parts you need, the welding tool simply pulls the correct parts out of your inventory, and applies them to the damaged block until it is repaired! Its simple, its elegant, and immersive. Doing this creates not only an actual engineering role for crew members, but it creates salvagers, recycling plants dedicated to breaking down old parts. It creates jobs in DU that people can take their roll in, and  enjoy. This can be even furthered with skills to make recyclers more efficient at pulling out parts, and breaking down elements faster.

 

Intermediate  parts will be in high demand  on the markets after this because they are NEEDED to repair elements as opposed to scrap. 

PS: make cores repairable with intermediate parts too. larger dynamic cores are already hard to make, having the ability to restore them with the rare parts they require would be a nice thing to have. 

 

I am with you on most of this.   I would likely say because of the items that are T2 some of those should not have semantics ether.       This would give players a way to  make ships if they want without 100,000 hours of mining. 

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I don't get it, I understand the changes and why they're attempting it, but it still makes absolutely no sense why the market sells elements cheaper than you can make them.

As an ORG member calculated;
 

Quote

 

here is the market at the moment for S adjustors.

I averaged the 1000 cheapest S adjustors to sell on Alioth, I calculated the average selling price of the resources it takes to produce them.

we put everything into a table and bam;

 

Average price of an S adjustor: 797 q / u
Average resource price to craft one: 2773 q / u.
You would have to sell them for 2940 q / u to make a little margin, while the average price is 797 q / u.

Basically, it is more than 3 times more beneficial to sell the resources than to make S adjustors.
Again, these are the Alioth prices, where is most of the market, and not counting the talents

 

 

So if the item is 3 times the cost to produce, than purchasing, where is the sweat shop running with child labour and how do we get this setup, still not seeing a schematic for that anywhere?

I have said it for a long time, the economy does not make sense, bots that sell cheaper than you can make them will kill the game. Get rid of the PERIOD, let the players and their actions set the price as it will pan out.

After listening to the video on the patch release with JC interview, I see his mission, but no reasoning.
Maybe an economist needs to be hired.

We pay tax on everything, where does this tax go?

IRL these taxes mean something, here they're just a s@#$hole sink for the sake of it. My taxes build roads, pay for public buildings, emergency services, and so on.
Do you see anything other than Markets as Public Buildings, no, where is our emergency services when we crash and be rescued.....

We need to make DU great again, I hear Trump is looking for a new job, anyone....

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7 minutes ago, Shealladh said:

I don't get it, I understand the changes and why they're attempting it, but it still makes absolutely no sense why the market sells elements cheaper than you can make them.

As an ORG member calculated;
 

 

So if the item is 3 times the cost to produce, than purchasing, where is the sweat shop running with child labour and how do we get this setup, still not seeing a schematic for that anywhere?

I have said it for a long time, the economy does not make sense, bots that sell cheaper than you can make them will kill the game. Get rid of the PERIOD, let the players and their actions set the price as it will pan out.

After listening to the video on the patch release with JC interview, I see his mission, but no reasoning.
Maybe an economist needs to be hired.

We pay tax on everything, where does this tax go?

IRL these taxes mean something, here they're just a s@#$hole sink for the sake of it. My taxes build roads, pay for public buildings, emergency services, and so on.
Do you see anything other than Markets as Public Buildings, no, where is our emergency services when we crash and be rescued.....

We need to make DU great again, I hear Trump is looking for a new job, anyone....

you are 100% correct  people make stuff and sell it for less than the price of the ore.  They are not even trying to recoup the cost of all the semantics now.    Maybe there should be a tooltip on every item that gives a current ore value?  

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49 minutes ago, Shealladh said:

Average price of an S adjustor: 797 q / u
Average resource price to craft one: 2773 q / u.
You would have to sell them for 2940 q / u to make a little margin, while the average price is 797 q / u.

 

How do you get to a resource cost of 2773?

The whole idea is that you do not make 10 of them, you make 10.000 or them.. If you do that you can easily sell them at 750 a piece

 

If you need a dozen or so you just craft them in inventory

 

The schematic system is actually fine. the problem is that NQ gave us a cart but has not yet start work on creating the horse, they should have don this the other way around.

 

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2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

How do you get to a resource cost of 2773?

The whole idea is that you do not make 10 of them, you make 10.000 or them.. If you do that you can easily sell them at 750 a piece

 

If you need a dozen or so you just craft them in inventory

 

The schematic system is actually fine. the problem is that NQ gave us a cart but has not yet start work on creating the horse, they should have don this the other way around.

 

I think the 2773 comes from the time it takes to craft it, and all of the parts that take to make it.

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5 hours ago, Mordgier said:

This patch did nothing but add way more tedious grinding to a game that was already mostly tedious grinding. This should have been obvious to the devs.

Its likely was. I but they needed to win some time and decided all cringe will worth it.

 

What drives me almost rabid in my salt levels -- not even this patch, but previous links in chain -- during Alpha we in our feedback practicaly begged NQ to not DU IT like this, totaly predicting all "mega-factories" and "ez mode" and other problematic things now being so clumsly "adressed".

 

Yet they started game in almost opossite mockery, allowing people get warps and AGGs like in first day? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Zekain said:

I think the 2773 comes from the time it takes to craft it, and all of the parts that take to make it.

 

as stated

...averaged of the 1000 cheapest S adjustors to sell on Alioth Market...

...calculated the average selling price of the resources it takes to produce them..

 

1 hour ago, Emptiness said:

It's not. Did they calculate with max refining/smelting/intermediary skills? I'm getting roughly 550 quanta per S adjustor, even with all ore prices at 25q/l.

 

Average market, and further calculation of talents etc are still to come from the stated amounts.

What we need is a break down of the Min/Max and Average costs for each part.
Then a calculator to break down the various NanoPack creation and Industry Talents on top.

 

All in all my friend's calculation are to find the average cost, nothing more.
You want to add to the cost listings, add some data ;)

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7 hours ago, Shealladh said:

I don't get it, I understand the changes and why they're attempting it, but it still makes absolutely no sense why the market sells elements cheaper than you can make them.

As an ORG member calculated;
 

 

So if the item is 3 times the cost to produce, than purchasing, where is the sweat shop running with child labour and how do we get this setup, still not seeing a schematic for that anywhere?

I have said it for a long time, the economy does not make sense, bots that sell cheaper than you can make them will kill the game. Get rid of the PERIOD, let the players and their actions set the price as it will pan out.

After listening to the video on the patch release with JC interview, I see his mission, but no reasoning.
Maybe an economist needs to be hired.

We pay tax on everything, where does this tax go?

IRL these taxes mean something, here they're just a s@#$hole sink for the sake of it. My taxes build roads, pay for public buildings, emergency services, and so on.
Do you see anything other than Markets as Public Buildings, no, where is our emergency services when we crash and be rescued.....

We need to make DU great again, I hear Trump is looking for a new job, anyone....

I've just posted this very issue under a bot/price fixing thread I started last night. High priced Bot placed ore orders are creating a broken supply and demand chain that's stopping the community actually having a competitive and complete market engine. 

 

The artificial ore price is there to off set depression that the 0.23 patch brought with it which in turn wanted to generate player driven markets. Go figure ? Economists NQ are not. 

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12 hours ago, Kirth Gersen said:

imho the problem with industry isn't solved by schematics, it's just pushed back.

 

The problem was the "zero cost" of producing: once you have your machines (refiners, smelters, ..., assembly lines) you don't need power , fuel or whatever to use them. You have no upkeep at all. You just need to input ores.

 

That's why even a solo player could gradually build and use a huge industry: what he already has cost nothing to run.

 

That's why ores were more valuable than their contribution in final products: because it cost nothing to transform them once you have the industry so for instance 10L of hematite are worth more their ratio in <whatever is made with 10L of hematite> because they are less 'specialized'. 

 

Schematics don't solve that. It's a band-aid, a bad one. Their timing is bad. The implementation is sloppy and it adds unneeded complexity (talents and tiers of machines). In a few weeks the situation will be the same but a lot of players will be gone.

 

Running costs (power, fuel, fees, whatever) was what was needed. And they said it's planned so why not wait till then ?

 

 

 

 

After this statement 

 

NQ-Sophon: power (or, "energy management" as we call it) is tied to territory tiles, hence it is also tied to the big "territory warfare" update, which include a lot of work on making each tile more valuable, including related to their energy production capacity. We could decouple it, but this is not the current plan.

 

I have to admit that I feel a little bit scared about this. What does he mean with "tied to tiles", is it random? Do I have any control over it? Are we meant to look for and fight for tiles with higher energy output?

 

Btw I'd love if they introduced a "classic" power generation system, your know, coal solar geothermal wind nuclear etc, but they should allow us at least to be able to transfer energy between cores, it would make sense to have 1 core acting as a power plant feeding everything else.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

After this statement 

 

NQ-Sophon: power (or, "energy management" as we call it) is tied to territory tiles, hence it is also tied to the big "territory warfare" update, which include a lot of work on making each tile more valuable, including related to their energy production capacity. We could decouple it, but this is not the current plan.

 

I have to admit that I feel a little bit scared about this. What does he mean with "tied to tiles", is it random? Do I have any control over it? Are we meant to look for and fight for tiles with higher energy output?

 

Btw I'd love if they introduced a "classic" power generation system, your know, coal solar geothermal wind nuclear etc, but they should allow us at least to be able to transfer energy between cores, it would make sense to have 1 core acting as a power plant feeding everything else.

 

 

 

How I see it:

There will probably be hexes with better output and hexes with lower output.

 

If you are ready to fight for it, go for the better hex and get it, then defend it and get high output for doing so.

If you don't want to fight for it, go for the lower end hex and hope no one attacks you and you will get lower output for lower risk.

 

Hexes in safe zone will not be able to generate that type of "energy?" or will be limited to the lighter versions as use of those higher end generators is forbidden by Aphelia authorities due to environmental problems. 

 

Like risk vs reward thingy.

 

There are ATM two things that we seem to call "energy" and they to be completely unrelated:

1) Energy as a resource that factories etc should consume when they are running

2) Energy as balancing factor so core of size N can only produce E amount of energy so sum of elements that can be put on that core should be <E.

 

In my case I use energy as (1)

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Well I believe it should be easy to implement some basic power generation using the resources we already have: hydrogen + oxygen through chemical refinery to create water  (so who's far from water sources is safe) coal into boilers (new element) to heat water for steam and a turbine (2nd new element) to generate energy. Ez xD

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4 hours ago, Fra119 said:

Well I believe it should be easy to implement some basic power generation using the resources we already have: hydrogen + oxygen through chemical refinery to create water  (so who's far from water sources is safe) coal into boilers (new element) to heat water for steam and a turbine (2nd new element) to generate energy. Ez xD

Cool, we came to another star system to reinvent steam engine....

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23 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Cool, we came to another star system to reinvent steam engine....

Hay if its efficent and it works what is the problem? we still use tech from as much as a thousand years ago even today because its efficent, cheap reliable and very hard to improve upon aside from better materials. Pullys, rope, batteries, fuel guages, steam turbines, dynamo solid state power storage, wheels, pots and pans, bowls, nails, wire, knives and many others.

 

Some things just work and are efficent. You can improve them with better and cheaper materials but the actual tech is very unchanged.

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16 hours ago, Shealladh said:

...calculated the average selling price of the resources it takes to produce them..

 

You likely went to dual.sh and punched in 1 adjustor, which will show you the min required resources to make 1 adjustor but not the actual resources used in 1 adjustor. 

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5 hours ago, HellToupee said:

You likely went to dual.sh and punched in 1 adjustor, which will show you the min required resources to make 1 adjustor but not the actual resources used in 1 adjustor. 

 

was taken from average of Alioth Market prices as stated....

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Yes I agree but also with Element Damage the charges should be more.  This is down to server stablity more than anything else.  But also they should really be looking at PVP and other PVE 3 charges is nothing it should be double this and smaller parts at least 10.  Its too much punishment.  Plus who is going to pvp with elements being destroyed and needing charges?

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Schematics are EVE learning skills in form, essentially when EVE Online had learning skills play advice was generally to train them as quickly as possible or to see your current account as a farm that exists to buy a fully trained learning skill account.

 

schematics are much the same where the most optimal way to play is to log in for a few minutes and wait for your daily income to reach the point where you can buy the schematics you need.  Since the scheduled 50-500 man hours of mining and selling to bots is just going to burn you out before you can enjoy the main content in the game.

 

———-

 

JC is under the delusion that he’s a sandbox game designer, when that’s far from any hint of the truth.  A sandbox game designer expects to be surprised by the player base, and will tend to not intervene.

 

IE: If EVE Online the only other civilization game designed and implemented like JC, Wormhole space would have had inhabitation through towers banned/burned to the ground.   Rather than what has been some of the most interesting and dynamic civilization gameplay in the game.

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17 hours ago, XKentX said:

Cool, we came to another star system to reinvent steam engine....

What's the matter with steam? xD

Nuclear power plants work the same way, they create heat through nuclear fission to turn water into steam for turbines, it might looks more futuristic but it's basically the same principle.

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