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Creative mode is coming.. Seriously NQ?


NQ will introduce a creative mode in game  

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On 12/12/2020 at 3:33 PM, Lethys said:

Love it how NQ desperatly tries to split up the community.

 

This pretty much goes against anything NQ ever said in any Podcasts, interview, devblogs and the kickstarter up until now. 

But on the plus side: I can then finally just refund my lifetime sub if kickstarter goals aren't met 

as i said before, the game is going away more and more from the original ideas and where most supported for. With a creative mode there is no need to actually be ingame for about 80% of the time or more for the creative people who are just here to develop and design. Hope they add the 8 km core soon that was also promised a longlong time ago together with infinite freedom to build and no restrictions on element placements like lets say industry and markets. People forget fast but there was a time that the idea of building vast space ships with industry and markets were actually promoted as you could build all you ever dreamed about.  Now....

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How is this a thing? It goes against everything NQ set out in their vision and actively counters the work they are putting into getting the economy going. What is this with NQ that hey seem to be will

Love it how NQ desperatly tries to split up the community.   This pretty much goes against anything NQ ever said in any Podcasts, interview, devblogs and the kickstarter up until now. 

I dont get how people cant see this splitting the community. One of DUs good points is the voxel engine. Even with the limited creation tools we have now, people are still making impressive ships and

As someone who designs stuff for a living (using a plethora or very expensive design and simulation tools) I support the idea of creative mode. In fact, at this point it's probably the only thing that will bring me back to the game. 
People who enjoy to play creatively (and only creatively) will not pay to play this game, period. So, not adding it simply deprives the game of subscribers.
It's similar to the piracy argument, that if you stop people pirating, they will buy the product instead... they won't.

People who enjoy a mix of playstyles (raises hand) need a good mixture of balanced game system (which are currently missing), so this makes little [difference] and is only a bonus for them.
 

You get more selection of stuff to play with without burning through scarce resources during the design phase, and you don't have to mine until you are ready to build it. Sounds great to me.  

 

 

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Honestly kind of needed now, considering how inconvenient parts are.  

 

Before .23 this was a pretty laughable idea*, considering how little punishment there was for needing to run up your own/extra parts.   Nowadays if you want to experiment you’re going to need to do it at a well stocked market pad (lol no), or work in someone else’s well stocked warehouse (like lol talk about an org vulnerability).

 

*or at least an eyebrow raising one regardless of where you stood.

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On 2/16/2021 at 10:30 AM, Fra119 said:

Oh cmon basic t1 elements aren't really this expensive, with like 15/20mils you can get pretty much every schematic you need to set up a ship factory.

 

I believe you can craft all the elements needed for a basic XS (and even S) core hybrid ship using your nanopack. If you want some extras like screens or cockpits you can buy them on the market at low prices.

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On 12/12/2020 at 6:52 AM, blazemonger said:

How is this a thing? It goes against everything NQ set out in their vision and actively counters the work they are putting into getting the economy going.

Don't look now, but NQ is putting 'Sustainment' on the top of the list.  I have been saying for weeks now that the PVE building community dwarfs the PVP building community.  You need to cater to them because they will pay to play.  

 

On 12/12/2020 at 7:10 AM, blazemonger said:

Because it will take a big chunk out of the economy of the game and further segment the game.. If NQ does this it effectively ends the single shard game they claim to be creating where everything you do matters as it no longer will.

That's not how it works.  You can only bring blue prints.  This is going to boost economy not hurt it.  Having to grind to test a build is demoralizing.  Grinding to build a ship you already tested is motivating.

Space Engineers has the same set up. Never does creative take away form the survival game.  It gives goals to shoot for and farm for.

On 12/12/2020 at 7:05 AM, blazemonger said:

All research, design and construction will just more out of the game and be completely free, no effort required and that will greatly impact the economy of the

It's just blueprints, not the material...

 

This has the potential to being people back.  If only to have fun building and testing.  It's sustainability for the game.  Even if, big if here, the builders never come out of creative, they are paying for the game. Significantly more builders will be grinding to build there creations on live, so no need to worry... be happy.

Builders will get excited for this, i'm already excited for this. Hope it comes sooner, than later.

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The only reason pve players are more abundant right now is cause there is no pvp in game.  And look where we are. I've said it before, the builders in a safe zone cant support this game.  Nor will they pay an ongoing sub.  This game will live or die based on how they do pvp.

 

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2 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

The only reason pve players are more abundant right now is cause there is no pvp in game.  And look where we are. I've said it before, the builders in a safe zone cant support this game.  Nor will they pay an ongoing sub.  This game will live or die based on how they do pvp.

 

You're right, the builders will not support the whole game, but they will add a significant amount to the sustainability of the game.  

$20 for 3 months, for a good building game.  I don't think that's going to scare many builders away.  0.23 did way more damage than the sub.

PVP is going to be FFA in the outer planets, instant climax and then nose dive into the ground.   I hope they can do something with PVP that doesn't scare more people out of the game.

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2 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

I've said it before, the builders in a safe zone cant support this game.  Nor will they pay an ongoing sub. This game will live or die based on how they do pvp.

I'm not sure what that means. Builders in a safe zone pay the same sub as pvp players and without building in safe zones there would be no pvp.

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Whatever. Game has become a second job anyway. Yes, I will probably enjoy the creative mode but I will have no real satisfactions.

Designing a construct in game or in creative mode it will take almost the same amount of time. The only real thing that creative will help with is picking the right colours. Yeey ...

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8 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

The only reason pve players are more abundant right now is cause there is no pvp in game.  And look where we are. I've said it before, the builders in a safe zone cant support this game.  Nor will they pay an ongoing sub.  This game will live or die based on how they do pvp.

 

Q: What do you need for any economy to flourish?
A: Product, and lots of it. And I mean diversity, not just quantity.

The more people that can design stuff, the better the economy will be.

Depending on where the designers are, you even end up forcing trade to happen, because people will either need to get their backside to the market selling stuff or have it shipped.

You don't design an economy solely around the supply of parts, you design it around end products that people want/need to buy, even if they already have something that does the same thing. You want the economy to succeed? You need designers wiling to put in the time to create stuff you will want to buy. 
Do you really think everyone who can do that (and do it well) will want to grind so that you can feel better about yourself? Or, will they want to immerse themselves in the creative process as much as possible? 
I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I can lose entire days/weeks while in "the creative zone"... and mining or other activities are not in my creative zone.
Just because a designer is not flying around does [not mean] he/she does not contribute... unless they have no interest in selling their creations, in which case they still pay a sub, so no loss there as far as NQ is concerned (not optimal in any way, but not the end of the world either).

 

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We have those pods that let us play tourist. Could just be a spin-off from that to start with.
It should not be a separate game mode though. I'm certainly not advocating for anything of the sort. Ideally it would be launched and managed from within the normal game session.  

 

Furthermore, it will be an absolute requirement if/when the concept of structural integrity is introduced and ships stop being a collection of parts stuck together with spit and good intentions.
Floating voxels may be fine in a simulated design environment, but its down right immersion breaking to see that when gravity is supposed to be a thing :) 

Edited by StaticAstraeus
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Edit failure, meh...

Additional point:  any server intensive checks during the editing process could, in theory, be scheduled to run only at the end, when one "compiles" the design.
Any errors would be highlighted before you can complete the process. Potentially alleviating any ongoing server strain the design process inflicts. Though this last point is speculative since I don't know what checks are carried out in real time.

Edited by StaticAstraeus
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NQ dug their own grave so to speak with 0.23, turning creative mode from nice to have into an essential feature if they want to keep builders in the game.

You can't just crank the grind and cost for experimenting and building up to 11 in what is essentially a building game, and not expect it to have some consequences.

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16 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

NQ dug their own grave so to speak with 0.23, turning creative mode from nice to have into an essential feature if they want to keep builders in the game.

I dont think the development cost is that big. Most needed is already in place. 

 

Take a look at tutorials. 

Creative mode can be a tutorial world with a market screen selling all parts needed for zero quanta.

The only real code needed is the mechanism to export the blueprint of the construct out of the tutorial. 

They could even make it nicer by adding copy/pastable voxel libraries to that world. 

 

The creation of this world would mostly impact tutorial designers and not programmers. 

 

Stuff like multiplayer creative worlds could be added later as a nicetohave priority. 

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Sure, there are many ways NQ could use existing features in the game for the creative mode. For example it would make sense to use the surrogate VR stations as the gateway into creative mode. But considering how much trouble they had/still have just getting basic tutorial functionality up and running, my expectations are low to put it mildly.

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If there's nothing that compels builders to actually play the game with creative mode...well, that's kind of the core problem, right?

 

it isn't that builders will "go away" because of creative...it's that there was never anything to compel them to engage beyond building, anyway... 

 

right now, the only "point" to building people can see is pvp...but there's a lot more to the original DU pitch than that. It was always supposed to be about having a role beyond boring pew pews (if you want)

 

creators aren't ever going to be sold on pvp. you'd think that would be super obvious based on the last few years of conversations, but people keep throwing their faces against it as if they will actually change people's personalities. it is completely pointless to try to sell creative builders on the concept of PvP...especially with this game's niche combat model that some find extremely bland and clunky. 

 

by "sell creative builders on the concept of pvp" I mean actually participating in PvP -- not just its existence as a core game concept which obviously is critical. 

 

the whole point of DU seems to be lost to NQ. they can't understand how to meld genres and don't seem eager to even try. they never had a plan to get from "building tool demo" to "civilization sandbox" and they still don't have a plan. 

 

PvP alone won't compel creatives; that should be really obvious. it was NQ that pitched them on the idea that engineer-types have a big role in creating this society. 

 

beyond creative mode, 0.24 is looking super pathetic. one mission type, org wallets, textures? How is this more than 30 days of work for a team of 50+...? How is this more than one two-week sprint for a team of 50+?

 

"creative mode" is a symptom of a larger issue IMHO -- which is that NQ can't pick up the development pace or actually implement features that would unify these divergent genres -- and frankly they can't even design those features, even if their dev pace was something nearing reasonable. 

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42 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

they never had a plan to get from "building tool demo" to "civilization sandbox" and they still don't have a plan. 

Retrospectivly (observing this game since 2016) I think "building" part of game kinda served very bad service to NQ. In way it provided sense of false security -- people done all kind of fancy builds, NQ gladly promoted them in social media, so its established this sugary narrative and endless talks of "what players can build in our game, just look how its cool". But its very... decieving thing to rest upon, because as builds fancy (and creative), as they hollow (and useless) in way of actual dynamics and systems of gameplay. And they, to be honest, main "food" for minority (in terms of paying population such MMO needs). Majority need something else.

 

Buildings =/= Civilization.

 

Im meawhile its very telling (and very observable) how most (if not all) of "political" life of game, starting pretty vigorously in 2016 gradualy died out -- because despite all efforts social players not found anything to base their efforts. Game just lacked (and still largely lacking) any content for them. Even community page broken and abandoned for whole year.

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13 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

Retrospectivly (observing this game since 2016) I think "building" part of game kinda served very bad service to NQ.

The problem is not the building part but the lack of game mechanics related to static constructs. Infrastructure is an essential part of technical civilisations. But it must be more than just voxels. NQ failed to implement mechanics that gives static constructs a purpose. All we have is industry and that has been nerfed to death with 0.23.

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53 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

 

right now, the only "point" to building people can see is pvp...but there's a lot more to the original DU pitch than that. It was always supposed to be about having a role beyond boring pew pews (if you want)

 

 

So that seems to be the big problem.  What point is it to build a city in the safe zone?  When there is no function, you just have pretty looking buildings that are empty.  Except for people who put up factories, but most people wanna do that for themselves, and the rest they buy from the market.  So again, PvP adds function, therefore its always going to be better.  Thats why this game needs majority of its focus on pvp.  You are never going to have a huge population living in a city together depending on eachother in the safe zone. It wont happen, especially how the game is now.   But you have a chance at that in a pvp zone.  How does that saying go, "necessity is the mother of all invention?"  Where is the need in the safe zone? There isn't one.  And there never will be one.

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12 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

The problem is not the building part but the lack of game mechanics related to static constructs. Infrastructure is an essential part of technical civilisations. But it must be more than just voxels. NQ failed to implement mechanics that gives static constructs a purpose. All we have is industry and that has been nerfed to death with 0.23.

I'm not saying building part is problem. Its more about that "visual" part, that was pretty successful on surface, likely influenced NQ perception, that everything is OK (people building stuff and happy, something will develop from this) -- at least hugely delaying alarm bells about need of actual mechanics. I think JC kinda "visual" guy -- in every trailer (since 2016) you see generaly same mockup skyscrapper city, scripted "activity" of avatars and ships, annoyingly same scenario again and again -- and I bet we see it in some future trailers too. So its all kinda clinked wrong way.

 

Like contary rude example:

 

If people from moment one of working game started build only ugly shit and rabidly rioting, that they need more actual mechanics, maybe, just maybe, we will be at better place (contentwise) now.

 

Anyway, this kinda depths, in short -- we need more PvP.

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1 hour ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

If there's nothing that compels builders to actually play the game with creative mode...well, that's kind of the core problem, right?

No. At least on the point you are trying to make. 

There are a tun of chalenges to builders:

Designing voxels, combining elements, making cheep ships, making large ships, making signature ships, making pvp ships, and 1000 more. 

 

When a builder enters build node, he becomes virtually disconnected with the game. 

He does not care about mining, he does not care about ships passing by e enters a different zone in his mind. A zone of perfection and efficiency. 

That is completely independent from from doing it in creative mode or in the game. 

 

The only real difference is that he can use test every element and every color in the game, without owning it.

What is the disadvantage of allowing this?

Why should a player have to buy every light in the game to know what lights exist to design a ship? 

How unfair it is for lone designers to design a ship like this, compared to org designers? 

How unreal is this compared to RL where you can completely design a vehicle and even run tests on it using nothing but computer software. Without needing to buy all the engines that exist on this world to test them. 

 

Even with a creative mode there are a tun of things that will involve a org in ship designing:

Specialization. Some specialize in interiors, others on defence others on cockpits others on tails, others on aluminum voxela, others on wood, others on calculating lift, others on decoration. 

Group/fleet testing. 

Defining acceptable price tags or acceptable mass-production materials.

Publicity. 

Peer review. 

Sales. 

 

To say that having the materials is an important part of designing is wrong. Its just a painfull limitation disconnected from reality or joy or depth. 

It is a part of deploying/mass-producinng. Not designing. 

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