Jump to content

Make pirates work for their loot.


 Share

Recommended Posts

To date I've probably spent 1/2 a billion quanta on recipes, materials, ore, and parts. Everything is super expensive. Turning a profit can take up to several months, and requires great effort.

Pirates are getting their way when it comes to ease of the kill. They can shoot us out of the sky with very little effort.

  • Warp drives don't function if you're targeted (even if they don't fire a shot. Basically your car breaks down every time someone looks at you and you had to get out and push till they looked away).
  • There's cool down and warm up periods for warp drives (pirates don't think it's fair that we have a chance to escape)
  • Increased the mass of elements to make sure that ships are slower and weakened the shields hit points. (make all the defensive stuff heavier and weaker so you're a sitting duck).

 

Right now it's pretty much point and click. They click your ship name, click "Identify", then start shooting.

If you're traveling at max speed, turning to confront is near impossible until you slow down, by that time you've already lost.

Besides the shield generator, and the pirates skill for successful hits, there are very very very few defenses for avoiding. They can shoot through asteroids or any obstacle you may try and hide behind.

With the right script, they can automate just about everything so all they have to do is target you and click fire, and the script takes over to track you.

 

Pirates should have to put in some kind of decent effort in their trade too.

They are mass complaining about how hard it is, and the devs are bending to their will.
Pirates have it too easy. And if we want to see any change and make pirate confrontation a little less 1 sided, we need to mass complain to the devs like they do.


Post your suggestion on how to even the odds, and I will compile all the ideas that have the best chance of being deployed in game into a form that you just have to copy/paste into the submit form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

A few ideas to start off with:

 

  • Make identifying a ship more interactive with radar jamming.
    1. Radar jamming would disable radars, emitters/receivers, and anything that sends out a signal.
    2. A quick mini game would be played to beat the jammer if active. Otherwise it's a normal identify.
    3. Beating the jammer would allow us to send the "jamming frequency" to other players so we don't all have to play the game.
  • Make shooting more interactive. So players just can't script their encounter, hits and misses could also in the form of a mini game. For example:
    1. We would have to click a swiftly moving floating target. The closer to the center we click, the greater damage is done and accuracy increased. The farther from the center the less damage and/or miss.
  • If no game, limit the number of shots before we have forcing us to interact with the chair to keep firing.
  • Add a random "weapon malfunction" where we have to click a repair icon or other maintenance when in constant battle.
  • Allow ammo to not magically pass through obstacles that we can't magically pass through so other ships can come to your aid and absorb shots.
Edited by Foregotten
Updated content
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the new weight limits, you might want to outrun them? If your ship is smaller/lighter... Space only ships can be lighter and thus faster then hybrid ships.

 

It would be nice if interfering terrain and structures would make any direct fire weapons (except missiles) miss automatically, missiles would have a big penalty for indirect fire.

 

I want things like electronic counter measures, configurations of ships/elements that make targeting the ship more difficult, etc. A cloaking system. etc.

 

What I do NOT want is more bloody mini games! NQ is not good at making mini games, the mining mini game is a good example of that. Initially it's a pain, after a few hundred times it becomes second nature to some. What initially is a crapshoot becomes something you can do without thinking and succeed (near) perfectly most of the time. It eventually is nothing more then a grindy timesink! Not fun at all and virtually no hindrance to those that do it very often and have a bit of talent/feeling for it...

 

Combat feels more like you're playing a 90s MUD instead of something 'exciting'. EVE has made it interesting, a puzzle with multiple solutions to the same problem with actual counters, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Foregotten said:

 

 

Pirates should have to put in some kind of decent effort in their trade too.

They are mass complaining about how hard it is, and the devs are bending to their will.
Pirates have it too easy. And if we want to see any change and make pirate confrontation a little less 1 sided, we need to mass complain to the devs like they do.

 

Warp drive was nerfed due to people pressing a magical I win button each time we PvP players took the effort to go catch them burning warp cells and fuel exposing our ships also to other PVP players doing what we all know is a bad thing that is flying in a pipe. DU PvP suffered for a long from very bad desync and lag making our job nothing like the easy you describe. And clearly, you have no clue about DU PvP scripts these do not put you the kill in a silver plate, these can give you info about Pipe distances, allies surrounding you, time to brake, and hit chance. For the rest you have to align your ships vectors with the target one while shooting so now you come fresh and ask to make it worse with a minigame. Jamm Sensors and electronic warfare on the other hand is welcomed addition and a good suggestion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a joke of a thread, honestly

 

For the last year pirates have been overspending when it comes to PvP.  When we'd go out to asteroids, 90% of the time it end up with us spending warp cells and fuel for absolutely nothing.  And the time there was something, it was mostly a tiny throw away ship that nobody even cared about.  When we actually got a whale, I'd say we absolutely deserve it.  Even when we killed big mission runners in the past, those people were already making tons of quanta so that they could repurchase the ship they lost 10 times over.  and alot of times we just sold it back to them so they could redo their mission route.

 

The fact that you think pirating is point and click clearly shows that you know very little about it.  Most of the skill comes through how good of a pilot you are and there is no script like you're suggesting out there that's going to help you with it.

 

You need to come up with ideas to avoid pirates like other players do.  There's plenty of people who have avoided pirates by using good escape strategies or just using a throw away ship that they don't care about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Foregotten said:

A few ideas to start off with:

 

  • Make identifying a ship more interactive with radar jamming.
    1. Radar jamming would disable radars, emitters/receivers, and anything that sends out a signal.
    2. A quick mini game would be played to beat the jammer if active. Otherwise it's a normal identify.
    3. Beating the jammer would allow us to send the "jamming frequency" to other players so we don't all have to play the game.
  • Make shooting more interactive. So players just can't script their encounter, hits and misses could also in the form of a mini game. For example:
    1. We would have to click a swiftly moving floating target. The closer to the center we click, the greater damage is done and accuracy increased. The farther from the center the less damage and/or miss.
  • If no game, limit the number of shots before we have forcing us to interact with the chair to keep firing.
  • Add a random "weapon malfunction" where we have to click a repair icon or other maintenance when in constant battle.
  • Allow ammo to not magically pass through obstacles that we can't magically pass through so other ships can come to your aid and absorb shots.


 

At first I was going to laugh at your thread, then I read your second post and I understood that you were a little more clumsy on the first.
 

What you are asking seems legitimate, I think a lot of players are asking for more gameplay mechanics (especially multicrew for PvP).

As long as there is a measure and against measure aspect, you have my support.
 

But be aware that PvP often takes a lot more effort than you think to take down a target ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Make combat interesting or worthwhile?  Give it a purpose besides simple ship destruction?  

 

 

15 minutes ago, Waffle Boy said:

You need to come up with ideas to avoid pirates like other players do.  There's plenty of people who have avoided pirates by using good escape strategies or just using a throw away ship that they don't care about.

 

Isn't avoidance of pirates exactly what pirates have been complaining about?  As you've said, plenty of people have avoided pirates.  This is exactly what led to the flood of pirate tears to the dev begging for the devs to implement crutch after crutch to help pirates find their victims. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Kruzer said:

Make combat interesting or worthwhile?  Give it a purpose besides simple ship destruction?  

 

 

 

Isn't avoidance of pirates exactly what pirates have been complaining about?  As you've said, plenty of people have avoided pirates.  This is exactly what led to the flood of pirate tears to the dev begging for the devs to implement crutch after crutch to help pirates find their victims. 

 

How it is right now is fine and it's not even overpowered.  Before people could just click warp and instantly get away from a pilot if they payed attention to the radar.  There's been plenty of times before that warp update where I'd go to an asteroid, see a ship, get ready to engage, all to just see them warp away in an instant.

 

The timer they implemented evened the odds for pirates.  Now haulers have to use other strategies to avoid getting killed.

 

It's not "crutch after crutch" like you're saying.  You're saying this like now it's impossible for haulers or anyone for that matter to go into pvp space without getting killed.  Re-read what I said regarding the past year being expensive for pirates.  You can still go to an older asteroid in the pvp zone and be relatively safe.

 

The other thing alot of people don't do is go out to asteroids with friends, they just go solo.  There is no universe where a solo miner is going to fend off some pirates.  Most pirates go out with friends and you will not be able to defend yourself.  You need a defense crew to help you mine at the exotic asteroids if you want to get out alive.  This is why the avoidance strategy is best for the solo player.  Also most people just end up panicking and have no idea what to do in the event of a pirate attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Walter said:

DU PvP scripts these do not put you the kill in a silver plate, these can give you info about Pipe distances, allies surrounding you, time to brake, and hit chance.
 

You can get coords for a ship, constantly updating to orient you towards that ship. Fire and forget.
I'm not saying make PVP impossible. PVP isn't meant to be easy. If you want to be a pirate, fine. But just like the rest of the game, it's not meant to be easy. And they have made it very easy for pirates. The game doesn't have the defensive options that they do for offensive ones. I'm not saying get rid of the pirates, I'm saying don't make it too easy.
They took away our warp jump. Retreat is no longer an option unless you're going slow enough.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Waffle Boy said:

 

How it is right now is fine and it's not even overpowered.

(I've been destroyed by pirates. Not paying attention. Attempting a slow run. I've had near escapes too. The idea of the game is to outsmart the enemy. Not complain that it's too hard and have them change the game. The game is still in beta. Most people are building, coding, testing, and other such things. We're just starting to experiment with PVP strategy. If they keep making it easier for pirates to kill people, people will just expend more resources to avoid them.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:


 

At first I was going to laugh at your thread, then I read your second post and I understood that you were a little more clumsy on the first.
 

What you are asking seems legitimate, I think a lot of players are asking for more gameplay mechanics (especially multicrew for PvP).

As long as there is a measure and against measure aspect, you have my support.
 

But be aware that PvP often takes a lot more effort than you think to take down a target ;)
 

I try and post examples for clarity. This was not aimed at pirates. Though we were discussing that in discord when I wrote this. There should be some skill involved in shooting things. Not point based skill, but actual skill like 1st person shooters. Absent that kind of skill, the game needs some mechanics that require people to focus on how they're shooting, not just point in the direction they want to shoot.

I've been looking at lua based games to make a "game room", because there is a big lack of that in PVP. And it doesn't look like they are going to go the 1st person shooter route which is what I was really excited for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Waffle Boy said:

What a joke of a thread, honestly

 

For the last year pirates have been overspending when it comes to PvP.  When we'd go out to asteroids, 90% of the time it end up with us spending warp cells and fuel for absolutely nothing.  And the time there was something, it was mostly a tiny throw away ship that nobody even cared about.  When we actually got a whale, I'd say we absolutely deserve it.  Even when we killed big mission runners in the past, those people were already making tons of quanta so that they could repurchase the ship they lost 10 times over.  and alot of times we just sold it back to them so they could redo their mission route.

 

The fact that you think pirating is point and click clearly shows that you know very little about it.  Most of the skill comes through how good of a pilot you are and there is no script like you're suggesting out there that's going to help you with it.

 

You need to come up with ideas to avoid pirates like other players do.  There's plenty of people who have avoided pirates by using good escape strategies or just using a throw away ship that they don't care about.

I run into, or detect pirates every time I do a planet run. I had a ship destroyed while mining an asteroid. They wanted me to pay money for my ship and for mining privilege's. I would have gladly paid the fee, but they didn't even give me the opportunity to pay it before blowing it up. They kept the ship after I destroyed what I could, and got no money from me at all.
Their incompetence at simple extortion is why I don't mine those asteroids anymore.
The "avoidance" you're referring to involves a huge detour. At max, sub-warp, speeds, evading isn't an option. Smaller ships go faster now, but most of the people in PVP space are hauling something. The only avoidance we have is to hope their ship heavier, we're going faster than them, and our shields hold out. The minute we slow down it's over. This isn't PVP, it's target practice.

I'm not asking them to nerf piracy. It makes the game exciting. I'm asking them to make pirates work for it, to make PVP fun for everyone. Not just spending quanta because they didn't catch any fish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Waffle Boy said:

Before people could just click warp and instantly get away from a pilot if they payed attention to the radar.

 

So you say that someone who is attentive, watches their radar and bails when they see a potential attacker approaching a problem? 
I'd say that if you pay attentiopn you should have the option to get away. As it  is now, even more than before, once a pirate shows up on radar, you are pretty much dead. Not sure how that is "fine".

Combat in DU as it is has no defensive strategy or options, any potential ones have been removed or nerfed to a point where they mean noting. Literally th eonly way is the long way around, which is both boring and basically removes possible gameplay.

And because of it, the majority of what is left of the non pirate playerbase just stays in hte safezones and has no interest of puruing anything outsid eof it as the rewards do not justify the risk, not even close.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me, PVP is not really worth the risk because they get to keep all your stuff. Most Pirates are already MEGA rich, and I am not super interested in handing them more spare parts. They have years of experience using this non-intuitive janky system and I doubt I can catch up. The only way to win is to not play until a more even playing field exists. It is not realistic that you get to keep an entire ship you just destroyed.  Would be better if only the non-destroyed components were repairable when taking over an enemy ship you just faught.

 

I could be wrong, but I am not interested in losing a billion quanta while learning how to pvp-- You need those super expensive high tier weapons to compete.

Edited by lunaprey
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/28/2022 at 2:41 PM, CptLoRes said:

Being attacked and killed by pirates must be the exception to normal operations. Anything else just means that people will stop doing those thing..

Provided you prepare and use the tools you really should have to mitigate the risk, yes. If you are just Bad N  Dumb, you really have no excuse when you get caught.
 

The major problem with DU is that NQ is unable to create a balanced game because they have no idea how to accommodatee that. They just move the parts around without ever actually changing anything. And as the core of the game is extremely basic and really has no provision for anything creative and NQ lacks the ideas to make things happen with what they have.

They have the base idea, but hen fail to actually build that into a feasible gameplay option that is attractive to the intended audience. 

Take the Alien core.. It is a good idea but really just dropped in with a few relating elements and the idea that players will sort it all out. And so, all it does is attract the combat focused players.

 

More and more it feels like NQ's "game design team" actually is not that at all, they are a group of devs who design gamemechanics which is something very different and would be a team which actual game designers work with to create their ideas and content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's practically too easy to avoid pvp. Warp safe zone to safe zone. Want to do asteriods? Bring a cheap ship or do safe zone asteriods. Doing alien cores? You should have a pvp ship for this. Doing missions?  Well yea mission runners are pvp targets  that's what they are out thier for, and why the reward is so great.

 

So you say make pirates work for the loot. I say the work is just trying to find the loot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, RugesV said:

It's practically too easy to avoid pvp. Warp safe zone to safe zone. Want to do asteriods? Bring a cheap ship or do safe zone asteriods. Doing alien cores? You should have a pvp ship for this. Doing missions?  Well yea mission runners are pvp targets  that's what they are out thier for, and why the reward is so great.

 

So you say make pirates work for the loot. I say the work is just trying to find the loot.

So let's break that down.

 

- Warp safe zone to safe zone

That is just traveling from point A to B, same as teleporting in a fantasy game.

 

- Want to do asteriods? Bring a cheap ship or do safe zone asteriods.

So you are saying that for anything but lower tier mining, you should expect to be pirated at any time and lose your ship?

 

- Doing alien cores? You should have a pvp ship for this.

So 100% PvP only game play then.

 

- Well yea mission runners are pvp targets  that's what they are out thier for, and why the reward is so great.

And this time you are saying that the purpose of running missions is to be cannon fodder for PvP players?

And no, the reward for missions is not that great when you consider the time spent AFK and cost of losing ships to pirates. Especially for people playing by the rules and not misusing the system.

 

So how exactly is this not already heavily tilted in favor of the PvP players?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah. Absolutely. PVP already heavily favored pirates to the extent that the rese of us were pretty much locked out of it. Athena made it much worse. I can do most of what I think is fun without leaving the sz and I will.

 

I'd love to have access to combat, because that can be fun too, but I don't have that access in any meaningful way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

So how exactly is this not already heavily tilted in favor of the PvP players?

Because all of the pvp things can be avoided by the majority of the players. And you can do 99% of the game without doing pvp. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This game is never going to have balanced or interesting combat...none of DU's mechanics really make sense or work well together.

 

AFK mission running as a core feature...? They seriously expect more than the 1,000 or so beta players to pay monthly for a screensaver? Open world PvP combat where you tab-target icons...? So fun. 

 

Haulers needing to have "friends" to sit around and guard duty while people mine? Just as fun as slow-boating missions...at some point people will get bored and attack their hauler friend just to have something to do. 

 

This game's combat is a joke at every level, from balance to mechanics to visuals to technical performance. It's fine if you find it fun...fun is very subjective, but things can be fun while still being "not good".  

 

IMO, there's no fixing this. It's broken too fundamentally and the game's overall mechanics are too disjointed for things to ever come together and gel. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

IMO, there's no fixing this. It's broken too fundamentally and the game's overall mechanics are too disjointed for things to ever come together and gel. 

Ok... Goodbye!

 

Can I have your stuff? 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RugesV said:

Because all of the pvp things can be avoided by the majority of the players. And you can do 99% of the game without doing pvp. 

 

The problem I have with that POV is that it basically reaffirms what is generally known, many combat focussed players do not see the bigger picture, just heir part of it and pretty much fail to understand that this is not "PVP content" but content outside of the safe zoen, where engagements _may_ occur.

At this time, unless you explicitely go around the possibility of an engagement, there is no counter to bring the risk down to where it is acceptable and in line with possible rewards and in the same vein the content only caters to combat focussed players.

To once more compare to EVE, there I can be in NullSec without ever bringing guns and make a living doing exploration. I have tools to gain awareness of what is going on in the area I am in and provided I am attentive to this, can ensure I get away before I can get engaged. There si still a risk of getting caught, but through experience, skill and the right ship for the job, I can reduce that risk to getting unlucky or making mistakes. And in turn the hunters will try and force me to make mistakes which is perfectly fine.. 

Besides there not really being a point to be outside of the safezone to begin with in DU, what activity/content is there carries way to much risk to the point of "once found, you are dead" as pretty much any possible way of escape has been either nerfed to the point of irrelevance or straight up removed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

At this time, unless you explicitely go around the possibility of an engagement, there is no counter to bring the risk down to where it is acceptable and in line with possible rewards and in the same vein the content only caters to combat focussed players.

I have hauled millions of L of ore out of pvp zone asteriods without ever getting into an engagement. Just gotta choose the right asteriods at the right time. And this can all be done in a ship that's valued at less then 50m. And I am sure some do it on much much cheaper ships. Considering the value of the ore you get out of these asteroids the reward is there for the risk. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...