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Make pirates work for their loot.


Foregotten
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While I get what you are saying @RugesV, that is still working around the issue, not fixing it. Having to wait until a certain time to do an activity to avoid running into certain groups of players is just silly and indicative of a lack of balance and gameplay options.

 

Also, as we should hope for a massive increase in player pop as the game releases, that option becomes less viable.

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On 4/28/2022 at 2:51 AM, Foregotten said:

I run into, or detect pirates every time I do a planet run. I had a ship destroyed while mining an asteroid. They wanted me to pay money for my ship and for mining privilege's. I would have gladly paid the fee, but they didn't even give me the opportunity to pay it before blowing it up. They kept the ship after I destroyed what I could, and got no money from me at all.
Their incompetence at simple extortion is why I don't mine those asteroids anymore.
The "avoidance" you're referring to involves a huge detour. At max, sub-warp, speeds, evading isn't an option. Smaller ships go faster now, but most of the people in PVP space are hauling something. The only avoidance we have is to hope their ship heavier, we're going faster than them, and our shields hold out. The minute we slow down it's over. This isn't PVP, it's target practice.

I'm not asking them to nerf piracy. It makes the game exciting. I'm asking them to make pirates work for it, to make PVP fun for everyone. Not just spending quanta because they didn't catch any fish.


How can we still see such messages again and again...
 

I have a simple question: have you tried piracy?
 

This question involves understanding if you realize that a PVP player has to be a basic PVE player;
He needs ammunition, fuel, warpcells, elements (high tier engines/weapons/radar) and for that, he makes as much effort or more than any other PVE player.
A pirate spends a large part of his time in the PVP zone, whether it is to scout, camp or intercept a ship and sometimes he fights against other players; the losses of time, quanta, lives on the elements or just a simple ship are not negligible. A PVE player who launches a route in the PVP zone just has to afk and wait to do the route in a straight line, most of the time with a script and he can do something else on the side. Because if we criticize the fact that the pirates have too simply kills and if you said that making a detour to avoid a pipe takes too much effort, it's bullshit.
 

To criticize the fact that a pirate does not always take the time to dialogue with his victim to find common ground is to forget that:
- There is no way to contact a pilot BEFORE destroying his ship, if you could just "right click" on a ship icon and open a chat window, why not
- 95% of the time the victim wants trashtalk more than calm talk, accusations of cheating are also very common
- We maybe just don't have the time to talk


To conclude; the PVP zone must be a lawless zone, piracy MUST be the main activity there and create a need for hauler security via mercenaries or alliances or even create conflict zones around an attack in order to secure a ship destroyed. Piracy must also be the most accessible PVP gameplay because new players or single players wanting to get into PVP must have the choice of learning PVP alone against haulers or other pirates. There will be no bot to fight against, remember that.

Instead of wanting to redesign piracy to make it more complex, redesign your gameplay and ships. Don't go out into the PVP zone unarmed or unescorted, get closer to an alliance with which you can call for help and have players who intervene to rescue you... Don't be what you criticize: players looking for ease.

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5 hours ago, Cobqlt said:

This question involves understanding if you realize that a PVP player has to be a basic PVE player;
He needs ammunition, fuel, warpcells, elements (high tier engines/weapons/radar) and for that, he makes as much effort or more than any other PVE player.

Well, the whole point of the game is that the pirate has affiliations and alliances which provide him with these and not that he makes them himself.

 

That said yes, a major problem with DU is that everyone seems to want to do everything for themselves AND the bots in game cause a price level in the markets which is too high.

If ore would be available more easily at lower prices, pures could be made cheaper and from that what a pirate needs could be made cheaper. The unsustainable bot prices for ore and things like schematics are resulting in prices being to high which in turn means that pirates can't sell what they do not need themselves from their loot at prices they can actually buy other stuff from.

 

TL;DR

The economy in DU is frekked beyond repair, hence a wipe is needed to remove both bots and schematics OR make schematics an actual part of the game, and not just a control mechanism for NQ (which fails to work as well when people have so much money they can just buy every one of them anyway).

 

 

5 hours ago, Cobqlt said:

A pirate spends a large part of his time in the PVP zone, whether it is to scout, camp or intercept a ship and sometimes he fights against other players; the losses of time, quanta, lives on the elements or just a simple ship are not negligible.

Fair. However, one would hope that come release that will get better.

 

 

5 hours ago, Cobqlt said:

 Because if we criticize the fact that the pirates have too simply kills and if you said that making a detour to avoid a pipe takes too much effort, it's bullshit.

People take the long way around because they want to avoid a confrontation, which is pretty much certain to be lost if it occurs. There is no mitigation of the risk unless you include actively arming and be ready for combat. And that is not an option that is viable or desired by many. That there may be risk is one thing but if you can't build in securities to reduce that risk, the only option is to go around the problem.

Again, in EVE, I fly my blockade runner in pretty much a straight line, only bouncing off an asteroid field or moon if needed or is both bubbles and/or too many people are in a system. It does not remove the risk, but it reduces it to an acceptable level. DU has _none_ of these kind of options, only going well around ..


 

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Wow, I didn't realize this was still going.  Time for some replies I guess.

 

On 5/3/2022 at 4:58 AM, CptLoRes said:

So let's break that down.

 

- Warp safe zone to safe zone

That is just traveling from point A to B, same as teleporting in a fantasy game.

 

- Want to do asteriods? Bring a cheap ship or do safe zone asteriods.

So you are saying that for anything but lower tier mining, you should expect to be pirated at any time and lose your ship?

People on this thread keep pretending like getting T5 is some impossible task, when in fact it is pretty easy.

Asteroid Mining

Again, a throw away ship costs very little to most people.  If you go to an asteroid that has been discovered at least the day before, you have a very low chance of being caught by pirates.  And most likely that asteroid has not been 100% completely mined.  Many people just go discover an asteroid, leave it, and come back to mine it the next day.

Trading

Can't get the T5 normally?  You can trade for it.  Get some factory going and start selling some items.  Yes at first it will be slow at first but soon you'll be able to trade for T5 easily once you get some sort of business going.

Auto-Mining

You know who owns most of the T4/5 tiles?  It's not PvP players I can tell you that.  People are already make tons more off of Auto-Mining than asteroid mining.

- Doing alien cores? You should have a pvp ship for this.

So 100% PvP only game play then.

It's definitely not a 100% PvP game but there should exist mechanics like this in the game.  Very early on it was suggested that we would be fighting for resources.

- Well yea mission runners are pvp targets  that's what they are out thier for, and why the reward is so great.

And this time you are saying that the purpose of running missions is to be cannon fodder for PvP players?

And no, the reward for missions is not that great when you consider the time spent AFK and cost of losing ships to pirates. Especially for people playing by the rules and not misusing the system.

Missions have had a huge changes.  If the wipe happens, then the missions will be worth it.  You don't die every time you go out.  We only a 2 SU range.  Learn to take a different route, don't go down the pipe, make adjustments to your route, when your escaping that first 2 SU away from the planet you need to make a turn after you get 2 SU away from the safe zone, otherwise you might get caught by a trajectory script.  Most of the people doing missions make it out 9/10 times.  and by the time they lost that one ship, they can already purchase 10 more of those ships.  seems worth it to me.

So how exactly is this not already heavily tilted in favor of the PvP players?

Because some of the richest and wealthiest players are not PvP players.  They focus on money making schemes, starting businesses and focusing on other things.

 

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15 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Well, the whole point of the game is that the pirate has affiliations and alliances which provide him with these and not that he makes them himself.

 

That said yes, a major problem with DU is that everyone seems to want to do everything for themselves AND the bots in game cause a price level in the markets which is too high.

If ore would be available more easily at lower prices, pures could be made cheaper and from that what a pirate needs could be made cheaper. The unsustainable bot prices for ore and things like schematics are resulting in prices being to high which in turn means that pirates can't sell what they do not need themselves from their loot at prices they can actually buy other stuff from.

 

The problems is that we are called pirates.
While we are not.
For example at SNS we are a real small nation.
We've had big miners, voxel builders, industrialists, people doing Lua and of course people doing PvP.
PvP is not a valid activity 100% of the time, so often you also do a few things on the side.
 

Now people are like "it's too easy for pirates to catch me".
Dude, we are a nation we have literally 10-20 people (and also double that as an alt) who pooled their efforts to kill you when you wander outside the safe zone...

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5 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

PvP is not a valid activity 100% of the time, so often you also do a few things on the side.

 

That's true sure.  Combat in DU is not designed to be a full time business. It's supposed to be part of the whole. Problem right now is that with a minimal amount of players active in a m,assively big universe, there is not enough combat to go around.

I still feel that cpmbat situation should emerge organically out of how disputes between orgs  are settles once "politics" and trying to resolve through diplomacy fails. Piracy as a "profession" really only can be a viable gameplay choice if there is enough "normal" traffic going around which is not the case at all.

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16 hours ago, Waffle Boy said:

Wow, I didn't realize this was still going.  Time for some replies I guess.

 

 

Totally agree with your points TMA.

 

Not sure what this thread hoped to gain tbh.  I still remember the original pitch.

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On 4/27/2022 at 4:42 PM, Foregotten said:

To date I've probably spent 1/2 a billion quanta on recipes, materials, ore, and parts. Everything is super expensive. Turning a profit can take up to several months, and requires great effort.

Pirates are getting their way when it comes to ease of the kill. They can shoot us out of the sky with very little effort.

  • Warp drives don't function if you're targeted (even if they don't fire a shot. Basically your car breaks down every time someone looks at you and you had to get out and push till they looked away).
  • There's cool down and warm up periods for warp drives (pirates don't think it's fair that we have a chance to escape)
  • Increased the mass of elements to make sure that ships are slower and weakened the shields hit points. (make all the defensive stuff heavier and weaker so you're a sitting duck).

 

Right now it's pretty much point and click. They click your ship name, click "Identify", then start shooting.

If you're traveling at max speed, turning to confront is near impossible until you slow down, by that time you've already lost.

Besides the shield generator, and the pirates skill for successful hits, there are very very very few defenses for avoiding. They can shoot through asteroids or any obstacle you may try and hide behind.

With the right script, they can automate just about everything so all they have to do is target you and click fire, and the script takes over to track you.

 

Pirates should have to put in some kind of decent effort in their trade too.

They are mass complaining about how hard it is, and the devs are bending to their will.
Pirates have it too easy. And if we want to see any change and make pirate confrontation a little less 1 sided, we need to mass complain to the devs like they do.


Post your suggestion on how to even the odds, and I will compile all the ideas that have the best chance of being deployed in game into a form that you just have to copy/paste into the submit form.

I agree with you 

what I think is the whole pvp thing is crap from the ground up first I don’t think worp should jam just because somone targets you I could see a wepon that could jam

a worp if they are hit but somone should be able two try run or hide behind a astroyed second I think the whole way the targeting works is wrong i don’t beleve a tab target is skilled pvp in this type of game I think it should be  aim shoot so a ship can dodge a shot  second I think old mining fits better wear you go two difrent planets and collect ore higher tier ore would be in pvp zones Encouraging exploring  

one moor thing I would like two

mention why do we have no hand weapons yet  so if I’m out of my ship in a pvp zone a ship pops up and I have no way two try defend my self 

 

what I see is a game that is not ready for launch game loops are not ready NQ has spent two many years changing game  instead of improving the game and  finishing the loops so sad I had such high hopes for this game  but it’s not going in a good way but never dose when you. Have So few reall up dates and then try rush it out before it’s ready when will game devs learn it never ends well when it’s rushed out the door and cut corners and promise’s 

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