Jump to content

SHEDDING LIGHT ON A NOVAQUARK INTERNAL DISCUSSION - discussion thread


NQ-Wanderer
 Share

Recommended Posts

The wipe will remove everything. I expect we will get to keep core blueprints and get talent points reset and returned to the pool.

 

I do not understand how some can't see the difference between a game mechanic causing loss of "stuf" and NQ resetting the entire game..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Celestis said:

If they wipe Sanctuary, that's a serious promise they'll be breaking.

 

Really just not how it works. The first is a commitment to game mechanics, but if they reset the ENTIRE game before release, then Sanctuary moons will be safe from there forward only. It is just foolish or "lawyer-esk" to try and assume that you could use that statement to "prove" that you have a right to keep everything on Sanctuary even through a full wipe. Next you're going to be arguing that if the game fails, and they close the servers, that they are somehow obligated to keep a server Running with Sanctuary on it for you. Nope. Not how it works.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

The wipe will remove everything. I expect we will get to keep core blueprints and get talent points reset and returned to the pool.

I think NQ actually has ideas about preserving more than just BPs, but implementing those ideas would fall to the limited development staff  who are busy trying to finish the release features that the game designers have decided are needed. As a consequence, they don't want to announce a full wipe because they hope to avoid that, but can't announce what will be preserved because they are not sure what will be ready in time.
By far the nightmare scenario (good for a quote) is a partial wipe that isn't properly tested, and which blows up when the game goes live. And maybe that will determine whether a full wipe is done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There will not be a full wipe. A wipe where blueprints are preserved is really the minimum, additionally I believe Talent points will be preserved but put back in the pool so you can respec.

 

I've read some comments here about NQ having made the decision on a wipe a long time ago and that the "internal discussion" is not about whether a wipe is happening (as it will), but how/when and to what extent. I do not see NQ preserving much else.

And as I do think that we are not all that far away from "release", we will know soon enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am running under the assumption that we will keep Core BPs and nothing else, including talent points. Before the talk of wipes, I had always assumed we would carry those talent points over, but I'm just trying to keep myself in a mindset where I will not be disappointed right now. If we get talent points (some or all) that will be a bonus as far as I am concerned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Deathknight said:

I am running under the assumption that we will keep Core BPs and nothing else, including talent points. Before the talk of wipes, I had always assumed we would carry those talent points over, but I'm just trying to keep myself in a mindset where I will not be disappointed right now. If we get talent points (some or all) that will be a bonus as far as I am concerned.

 

Agreed. I'm trying to plan for both directions as much as possible. We know nothing, we can safety assume nothing. So I log in every day to get my dole, I run my mining units and collect my ore, I blueprint as much as possible in as many different incarnations and materials as is practical. Something will eventually happen. I hope that this game that I love so much survives for many more years to come. I hope for at least one Renaissance along the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Tordan said:

 

Really just not how it works. The first is a commitment to game mechanics, but if they reset the ENTIRE game before release, then Sanctuary moons will be safe from there forward only. It is just foolish or "lawyer-esk" to try and assume that you could use that statement to "prove" that you have a right to keep everything on Sanctuary even through a full wipe. Next you're going to be arguing that if the game fails, and they close the servers, that they are somehow obligated to keep a server Running with Sanctuary on it for you. Nope. Not how it works.

 

 

You've missed my point.

 

I was just giving feedback to NQ to let them know my thinking on the subject.

 

In reality, if I lose everything I have built/created on Sanctuary, I won't have any incentive to keep playing the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/6/2022 at 6:58 PM, Cergorach said:

I absolutely agree! But keep in mind, that some actually might start playing due to a wipe on launch, but I expect it not to be the massive player influx that some people expect.

 

What I find more worrisome are the exoduses that are going to happen one way or another. Previously I would have identified two major groups. Those that leave because there is no major (enough) wipe on launch and those that leave because the wipe is to big for their tastes. With us stuck in limbo for three weeks, I suspect we'll have a third and fourth group leaving:

 

#3 People that are not playing (much) since the announcement and, have lost or are losing interest in DU altogether and moving to other games. No longer looking at DU at all, no relaunch is going to change that...

 

#4 People that are currently in a holding pattern in DU, not doing any grinding due to the high potential of a massive wipe happening that will just leave if after weeks/months nothing changes (no wipe) at launch. Not because they initially wanted a wipe but because of all the trouble it brought and then nothing happens, while they have been sitting on their hands for potentially weeks/months. I suspect that these will be primarily paying customers that are paying for the subscription (non-beta key customers).

 

At this point I think the not making a decision is doing more damage to the (potential) player base then an actual wipe or no-wipe...

I've given up thinking about playing after launch; I'm just enjoying doing stuff in the game when I feel like it as I feel like it.

I've given up calibrating my mining units, introducing them was the worst change so far.

If/when the schematics change happens I'll just give up doing anything with industry; I might make some stuff in my nanocrafter if that's still possible but there are so many bad changes/wipes being talked about that I guess I'm in both categories #3 and #4.

 

I shrug and say that I really enjoyed the game before Taxes were introduced because I had "Homes" on every planet and moon and I enjoyed flying around the system, hoping not to be attacked but mostly only carrying T1 ore or the latest furnishings I was adding to my homes so on the occasions I did lose everything, including my ship, I'd just res somewhere, harvest and make a simple ship to get me back to Sanctuary where I could make something better. That was fun so if they are going to take the game away from me with a wipe, I'll just move on and have fun in another game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Tordan said:

We know nothing, we can safety assume nothing.

 

Which is astounding -- this thread was started on April 14th! Whenever people ask them to address this, they simply ignore it. Over and over and over. After every one of their useless weekly videos that they seem to think counts as "engagement". 

 

It's been about 2 months since they commented on this "ongoing discussion".

 

People make decisions about who to elect as their nation's leader faster than NQ can make a simple choice about their own product. Well...okay, maybe that's a bad example.

 

This isn't wise decision-making or some grand strategy...it's poor business in every dimension:

  • It's bad PR on top of bad PR, right before release...how do they think the reviews will read? 
  • It's very bad game development...this is the time when the beta is supposed to be its most scaled-out, not the least popular as it is now. Few players means few bug reports means a guaranteed crap release. 
  • It's bad game development (x2) because they keep changing things as they push forward to release. Even a small, small change can destabilize the product at scale. Multiple changes combined with low pops means bad times at scale.  
  • It's bad business strategy...whatever widgets they think they "lose" if people have an early start, it'll be far, far worse with all the above.
  • It serves no purpose other than making people not want to play -- I've yet to hear any cogent business reason to delay even the obligatory "we're still thinking about it" lines of communication, never mind dragging their feet on this in general. 

Having learned about their CEO's ongoing obsessions with web3 and the metaverse, it's not really a shock that they are more interested in lofty ideas that have nothing to do with DU (or even reality) vs. actually rolling up their sleeves and doing work

 

Prepare for NQ's next project announcement...it'll probably have NFTs and be an even bigger disaster than this mess, because NQ's leadership is just not capable of self-reflection, self-improvement, or self-awareness. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Deathknight said:

I am running under the assumption that we will keep Core BPs and nothing else, including talent points.

 

I expect we keep both but can live with just core BPs .. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

 

I expect we keep both but can live with just core BPs .. 

BPs I can understand if they are their own without drm.
Talent points themselves will have to be deleted, purely out of fairness to all new players, as the advantage is simply far too enormous. If the skill points would stay, you could also leave everything else, makes no difference in the long run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

If the skill points would stay, you could also leave everything else, makes no difference in the long run.

 

An advance in talent point for existing players is probably the least impactful of anything else relative to new starters. I've seen a few good explanations of why on the forums, but bottom line is that a new player will catch up to roughly 80% of the capabilities of a 2year old character within 6 months and keep closing that distance.

 

Also, a new player with referral code will start with 1million TP and provided the bonus for activating 2FA remains in place an easy second million. For a new player 2 million TP will be more than enough to instantly be capable of participating in pretty much anything at a very decent level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

An advance in talent point for existing players is probably the least impactful of anything else relative to new starters. I've seen a few good explanations of why on the forums, but bottom line is that a new player will catch up to roughly 80% of the capabilities of a 2year old character within 6 months and keep closing that distance.


 

There is a catch-up mechanism in the points? Until now I assumed that you get 60 points or 90 points if you are learning something.
Accordingly, a new player can never catch up if he should not get more than these 60/90 points. Every player has his talents in the list to keep these points running at 90. So you can't catch up with 80%.

So if we reset everything at release the following will happen:
- new players will get these 60 points, once they have played the tutorial with the talents, they will consequently get 90 points.
- new players will certainly collect stones, start the first MiningUnit, etc.

What does an old player do? Immediately starts the talents so that the 90 points come.  Will distribute his 90,000,000 points - or part of them. Especially at the beginning, you can collect a lot more ores with points when picking up ores. With points you can set up much stronger MiningUnits, which also grant more ores during calibration (immediately) and collect more ores every hour.

But it goes even further, the player can immediately unlock skills to need less fuel, at the same time produce more and faster. so he gets to everything faster, has to collect less ores and produces more and faster.

This means that the old players not only have a considerable advantage due to experience, but a game advantage that cannot be caught up with. (Unless you give new players a catch-up mechanic and allow 600/900 points instead of 60/90.
 

44 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

Also, a new player with referral code will start with 1million TP and provided the bonus for activating 2FA remains in place an easy second million. For a new player 2 million TP will be more than enough to instantly be capable of participating in pretty much anything at a very decent level.

 

You want to sell me 2,000,000 points here? No. Every player can get the security points, so 1,000,000 points are omitted.
That leaves a maximum of 1,000,000 points for a new player, but only if he lets himself be recruited and doesn't just create an account and play immediately. The mass of new players (if there are any at all) will simply take out a subscription and start playing. So they do without the 1,000,000 points, whether consciously or unconsciously.

But it doesn't matter, because there is no way to catch up in any way. Even 1,000,000 is ridiculous compared to 90,000,000 points.

 

Edited by Zarcata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Zarcata said:


 

There is a catch-up mechanism in the points? Until now I assumed that you get 60 points or 90 points if you are learning something.
Accordingly, a new player can never catch up if he should not get more than these 60/90 points. Every player has his talents in the list to keep these points running at 90. So you can't catch up with 80%.

So if we reset everything at release the following will happen:
- new players will get these 60 points, once they have played the tutorial with the talents, they will consequently get 90 points.
- new players will certainly collect stones, start the first MiningUnit, etc.

What does an old player do? Immediately starts the talents so that the 90 points come.  Will distribute his 90,000,000 points - or part of them. Especially at the beginning, you can collect a lot more ores with points when picking up ores. With points you can set up much stronger MiningUnits, which also grant more ores during calibration (immediately) and collect more ores every hour.

But it goes even further, the player can immediately unlock skills to need less fuel, at the same time produce more and faster. so he gets to everything faster, has to collect less ores and produces more and faster.

This means that the old players not only have a considerable advantage due to experience, but a game advantage that cannot be caught up with. (Unless you give new players a catch-up mechanic and allow 600/900 points instead of 60/90.

@Jake Arver meant that you get 80% of the benefits of the talents (up to level 4) in 20% of the total time. So where a 2 year veteran will have level 5, a new starter can get to level 4 in 6 months.

 

So really this minimises the effect of carrying over talent points (unless NQ surprise us all and add a huge tranche of new talents).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "catch up" is a lie, there will always be some that are in front or behind and that is perfectly fine unless you want a wipe every week?

 

Adding to the tasty reply from a Distinct Mint, you also do not need or use all skills all the times, meaning if i have 10 skills at lvl 5 and you only having 2 skill at lvl 5, but those 2 are the once we using for X task, then we become equal.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Distinct Mint said:

@Jake Arver meant that you get 80% of the benefits of the talents (up to level 4) in 20% of the total time. So where a 2 year veteran will have level 5, a new starter can get to level 4 in 6 months.

 

So really this minimises the effect of carrying over talent points (unless NQ surprise us all and add a huge tranche of new talents).


Thank you. However, not all of them have 5/5, many players have 4/5. At least with the talents that require over 2,000,000 points.
However, it does not change an enormous imbalance and advantage that you can never recover, especially at the beginning. If we then play for months, this gap will certainly feel smaller, and mathematically in many cases only make the difference from 4/ to 5/5 seem small, but it doesn't help the new players if old players have already taken everything on the market or in PvP and could thus gain even more advantages without the danger of competitors.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

There is a catch-up mechanism in the points? Until now I assumed that you get 60 points or 90 points if you are learning something.

 

Yes, there is:

 

The talent system is pretty much a copy of EVE's skill system which means:

There is a basic number of points is 600 and then you have a multiplier

Each level is 5x the previous one

So, at x1 multiplier you get 600,3000,15000,75000 and 375000 respectively

And at x10 you get 6000,30000,150000,750000,3750000

 

Base skills are all x1-x3 multiplier, so these train pretty quickly, certainly to L4

These are the skills new players will train

 

After 2 years, your training will mostly be x6-x15 L5 skills

Training ONE L5 talent at x10 is 3,750,000 points

Training ALL levels of a x2 talents is 937,200 points

So, while your 2yo character trains ONE L5 talent at x10, a new player trains FOUR entire x2 talents L1-L5

There is your catch-up mechanism ..

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kind of like the "kiss the girl" paradox where a boy is only allowed to halve the distance to a girl - he can get really close, but never make contact.  This system is similar - you can rapidly reach 80% of where lifers are at, but you will never catch up.  Likewise to my example, there gets to be a point where the gap no longer matters...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

Well sure.

 

On the other hand though, talents are limited and generally do not impact the gam all that much beyond their L4 point.

Dreamer!
 

At the start where a regular player already has 5/5 points in a skill tree, a new player has 0/5.
Later, when the player finally gets to 4/5, the old player also has these 4/5 points in another skill tree.

 

New player: 4/5 and 0/5
Old player: 5/5 and 4/5


New player: 4x5% more ore and 0
Old player: 5x5% more ore and 4x5% less consumption.


But actually it looks more like this at the moment:


new player at the start: 0/5 everywhere
old player: 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 5/5 and 3/5 and 4/5 and 2/5 and 5/5 and 4/5 and...at least there are 90.000.000 points.

A new player can only catch up in real terms if the old player has fully skilled everything and can therefore no longer distribute points. Only then and only then can he catch up!

Edited by Zarcata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

A new player can only catch up in real terms if the old player has fully skilled everything and can therefore no longer distribute points. Only then and only then can he catch up!

And why should a new player be able to catch up to a veteran at all (unless he is maxed out)?

I don't understand how you can expect this to happen, since NQ would then have to reset BP for all players every time a new player joins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

And why should a new player be able to catch up to a veteran at all (unless he is maxed out)?

I don't understand how you can expect this to happen, since NQ would then have to reset BP for all players every time a new player joins.


The conversation here is solely about the release of the game in relation to a wipe, where some players want to keep the BPs and other players also want to keep the skill points.
BP I understand, it was also confirmed by NQ that they are considering this.
Skill points for the wipe and the release is not possible. This has nothing to do with "veterans", but simply with an enormous game advantage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keeping our talent points would actually be a complete game breaking for old players.
 

For example on the objective of going for an Aphelia mission run:
- A ship without handling or pilot talents requires 4 times more flight elements than a version with maxed talents.
- Items to craft with industry cost 2 times less in quantity of ore if you have maxed talents.
 

To put it simply, a new player will have to farm 8 times longer than me to achieve the same result if I keep all my talent points.
 

And I'm not even talking about PvP, or in addition to the PvE advantages you have all the management of weapons and radars.
 

It would be totally unfounded for us to keep our talent points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Zarcata said:

BPs I can understand if they are their own without drm.
Talent points themselves will have to be deleted, purely out of fairness to all new players, as the advantage is simply far too enormous. If the skill points would stay, you could also leave everything else, makes no difference in the long run.

This and other posts in this discussion.

 

When I started playing at the end of Alpha, there were many people who had loads of Talent points, and lots of industry, and experience of the game and I found that really useful because all of those people were really helpful in getting me started.

 

A full wipe of everything to level players so that all the old very experienced players have to start back at the beginning along with all the new players, would be a mistake because the best experience for new players is when there are advanced players with loads of stuff available to help them out.

 

However, NQ will probably do that because mistakes seem to be what they do best.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...