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Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..

 

"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*

 

I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.

 

Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market

 

What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale

 

What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?

 

So I'm left thinking.. 


I FINALLY GET IT!!

 

I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents

 

At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

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Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..   "Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*   I came in after schematics so I

Welcome to reality, where whole NQ industry/resource disign is unsustainable bonkers.   For additional pleasure I recommend rewatch JC video where he had delirium tremens about specializatio

This is true yes. The worst part here though is that NQ actually put direct blame on solo and small group players for the fact markets did not function and sold the 0.23 changes as a "fix" for this.

9 minutes ago, Vasten said:

all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents

Yea, this is pretty much it.

 

They needed to actually hard limit individual's ability to diversify industry to force players into specialized industry make trade happen. Only think I can think to do would be to make it so you can only talent into X number of industry chains, and can only make things you're talented into. If it's restrictive enough, goods will flow more readily, but I doubt people want another talent/industry rework anytime soon...

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4 minutes ago, Treelover69 said:

Yea, this is pretty much it.

 

They needed to actually hard limit individual's ability to diversify industry to force players into specialized industry make trade happen. Only think I can think to do would be to make it so you can only talent into X number of industry chains, and can only make things you're talented into. If it's restrictive enough, goods will flow more readily, but I doubt people want another talent/industry rework anytime soon...

Even that wouldn't be enough

 

If the talent bonuses arent big enough for that

 

Cost benefit would not justify.

 

If you cut a production line across 2 players you add the cost of transport, market fees, plus all the opportunity cost of not knowing if/when it will sell

 

Having a full production line from ore to finished product will be soooooo much better than selling intermediary parts.

 

So only finished products will be feasible industry strategies..  building automated factories that can produce multiple products on demand makes it worse.

 

It's like this game gives you the high tech age of fully automated factories, so it kill small producers

 

But a primitive stone age quality market system where you literally have to haul the product to market just indicate intent to sell in that specific location 

 

Topped off by a schematics meant to curb stomp you ability to build up industry production and force you to buy instead of make

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Welcome to reality, where whole NQ industry/resource disign is unsustainable bonkers.

 

For additional pleasure I recommend rewatch JC video where he had delirium tremens about specialization and screw factories (iphone production at backyard). Aged well, like good wine.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Vasten said:

as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents

 

Pretty much, yes. The big problem is that NQ does not back what is visible up front (schematics) with mechanics behind it to feed into it. They just drop a stack of schematics with a bot on the markets which means that unless you have money you can't get into this area of the game.

 

I've used the example of EVE here where blueprints and using them is fed by exploration mostly and PVE combat content as well. On top of that, while you buy T1 original blueprints from markets, you can use skill and PVE content to get the ability to research, reactions and invention to improve efficiency, quality and tier of the outcome of blueprints. And that is a _lot_ of gameplay for  _a lot_ of players, of all colors and styles. All this is absent in DU, you only can obtain schematics by buying them from bots really so there is no gameplay attached to this, just having money.

 

So yes, DU right now is a very shallow pond, where EVE would be a very deep ocean in this respect.

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11 hours ago, Vasten said:

At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

But the thing is, 0.23 also pretty much killed your ability to 'make your own stuff and have fun' without having to play mining simulator 95% of the time. So 0.23 was a lose-lose scenario all around.

 

Edit. Just realized I misread youe comment, saying the same thing I just said... :)

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6 hours ago, Treelover69 said:

Yea, this is pretty much it.

 

They needed to actually hard limit individual's ability to diversify industry to force players into specialized industry make trade happen. Only think I can think to do would be to make it so you can only talent into X number of industry chains, and can only make things you're talented into. If it's restrictive enough, goods will flow more readily, but I doubt people want another talent/industry rework anytime soon...

I know that wont work

 

Because I already have 3 alts.. a main miner, a refiner, a smelter, and a metalwork

 

No matter what you do.. if alts are a thing then people just create a bunch of alts

 

They allow alts, of course because sub money, but that only means any attempt to curb a players ability to diversify just means whales will control the market

 

So my 4 chars isnt enough, I need a few more before I can participate in the market.. but I'm already at the point where i have given up on that..

 

But I'm sure there are lots of guys with a dozen alts 

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7 hours ago, Vasten said:

What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?

Yes.

 

Any "player run market" turns into capitalism at some point. There is no avoiding it without ruining the "player run economy" as capitalism is a product of free market. 

DU got to that point extremely fast.

 

Why?:

1) Many players were not MMO players and did not value quanta while others knew quanta makes quanta and had exponential growth.

2) Playing with voxels at the game launch was fun, playing excel was not. Stuff like containers had 300% profit margin at start of beta. Having 1mil and multiplying it by 3 every day. Think what happens after a week.

3) Schematics fiasco

4) pre 0.23 6 out of my 10 warp beacon factories started. They did only stop after completing the cycle...

5) Some good heists had small amount of people generate even more wealth.

 

Not everything is on NQ but stuff like "3" obviously is. Players did their part too, thank you for selling me ore and buying my containers at the start of the beta.

 

I know some people that still think "they will get to economy later" and "for now I buy warp drive schem because I want to build 4 of them" etc. I am tired of arguing.

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

 

Not everything is on NQ but stuff like "3" obviously is. Players did their part too, thank you for selling me ore and buying my containers at the start of the beta.

Actually it is pretty much all on them

 

Every mmo has this problem

 

A large base of casual players for fun

And small base a Meta optimization focused players

 

If they didnt plan for this it is on them.

 

They cant create a game with a meta strategy that creates this and say "oh my, I didnt realize there would be gamers to take to the meta strategy to such extreme lengths"

 

I now understand why 0.23 killed the player base

 

Because schemas made everyone dependent on the tychoons.. it's either buy from tychoons or spend all your time and money buying schemas.

 

Yes.. they created a good replica of modern day capitalism.. schemas are akin to patents and copyrights...

 

But this is not what they say they are trying to create.. they say they want civs composed of specialized players...

 

All they need to do is remove the passive play element.. make industry machines break down and require maintenance and care so that there is a reasonable limit on how much a single person can handle. (No char limit on max units.. make the input actually active play.. human time maintaining the factory machines)

 

Problem solved so easily...

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16 minutes ago, Vasten said:

They cant create a game with a meta strategy that creates this and say "oh my, I didnt realize there would be gamers to take to the meta strategy to such extreme lengths"

I now understand why 0.23 killed the player base

Because schemas made everyone dependent on the tychoons.. it's either buy from tychoons or spend all your time and money buying schemas.

 

This is true yes. The worst part here though is that NQ actually put direct blame on solo and small group players for the fact markets did not function and sold the 0.23 changes as a "fix" for this.

 

NQ _wants_ big orgs to control and dictate the game parameters and expects solo and small group players to just follow that meta or become a big org if they want to create meta themselves. They pretty much killed their initial claims that the game will offer every opportunity for solo players to be successful. Clearly that success would not equal what a large org could do but NQ has changes the game to the point where small group and solo players are directly dependent on what large groups do or don't do.

 

Results are seen in for instance AGG being not available on markets at all or at ridiculous prices which directly follows from large orgs being able to cook their own and control the availability of these items for the rest.

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1 minute ago, blazemonger said:

 

This is true yes. The worst part here though is that NQ actually put direct blame on solo and small group players for the fact markets did not function and sold the 0.23 changes as a "fix" for this.

 

NQ _wants_ big orgs to control and dictate the game parameters and expects solo and small group players to just follow that meta or become a big org if they want to create meta themselves. They pretty much killed their initial claims that the game will offer every opportunity for solo players to be successful. Clearly that success would not equal what a large org could do but NQ has changes the game to the point where small group and solo players are directly dependent on what large groups do or don't do.

 

Results are seen in for instance AGG being not available on markets at all or at ridiculous prices which directly follows from large orgs being able to cook their own and control the availability of these items for the rest.

It's not even just orgs

 

A single player with a mega factory is too much. A single player with a mega factory doesnt need an org.. they can grow to be org sized without an org because of scalability and automation 

 

I actually dont mind big orgs.. it's the scalability of a single human player that is riddiculous..

 

"Work together and specialize.. unless your are in the top wealthiest players.. then just make everything yourself, make passive income, and grow exponentially... the rest of you.. no scalability at all.. scaling is only for the top 1%"

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For me what was especially offputting was NQ's reaction to complaints about 0.23. 

 

Their statement was basically "look, we know most people hate it...but here's why you're all wrong"

 

A single player with a mega factory might be too much, but the schematic system was a lazy, short-sighted fix. 

 

This is how NQ works, though -- they're always going for the easy route, and it always makes things harder long-term. Just look at their tech decisions. 

 

The idea of voxel to mesh is that makes it easy to run the game off an off-the-shelf engine like Unigen, because clients know how to handle the physics and collisions for simple meshes. If they did pure-voxels, they'd have to actually make a game engine to handle physics and collisions. 

 

But...they knew the game couldn't ever scale to the point where players could "create their own moon-base" etc. using voxel to mesh. GPUs are stressed enough trying to handle the billion one-off constructs loaded by markets...there's no way a bunch of massive one-off meshes that can't be pooled can scale in an MMO context. 

 

Same with their server arch. They knew it'd be cheaper and more effective to spin up their own servers long-term, but AWS is easy. Oh, but autoscaling isn't really designed for games and takes too long to react to things like PvP battles...hmm...who knew? Oh right, anyone that's ever worked with these tools before. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

Same with their server arch. They knew it'd be cheaper and more effective to spin up their own servers long-term, but AWS is easy. Oh, but autoscaling isn't really designed for games and takes too long to react to things like PvP battles...hmm...who knew?

Doesn't GW2 run off AWS? It's PvP centric & and MMORPG with relatively big fights ~300 people. Is there something more nuanced that would go to say that PvP in the way DU structured it wouldnt work within that type of setting? 

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11 hours ago, Vasten said:

I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents

 

At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

lol.  As an "elite industry tycoon" myself, there's still alot of room for people to make profit.  If you try to sell T1 & 2 items you will get lower profit margins but make lots of sales.  I do T3-5 items but sales come in slowly.  It will take alot of grind but eventually you can get to the point to where industry pays for itself.

 

The game is at a slow moment so sales have been pretty slow compared to a couple of weeks ago... so if you are just getting into industry & selling now I can see it being frustrating as even poor industry 1%ers are suffering right now lol.

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24 minutes ago, TheMasterArchitect said:

lol.  As an "elite industry tycoon" myself, there's still alot of room for people to make profit.  If you try to sell T1 & 2 items you will get lower profit margins but make lots of sales.  I do T3-5 items but sales come in slowly.  It will take alot of grind but eventually you can get to the point to where industry pays for itself.

 

The game is at a slow moment so sales have been pretty slow compared to a couple of weeks ago... so if you are just getting into industry & selling now I can see it being frustrating as even poor industry 1%ers are suffering right now lol.

It doesn't help that there's nothing to take those items out of circulation reliably.

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2 hours ago, TheMasterArchitect said:

lol.  As an "elite industry tycoon" myself, there's still alot of room for people to make profit.  If you try to sell T1 & 2 items you will get lower profit margins but make lots of sales.  I do T3-5 items but sales come in slowly.  It will take alot of grind but eventually you can get to the point to where industry pays for itself.

 

The game is at a slow moment so sales have been pretty slow compared to a couple of weeks ago... so if you are just getting into industry & selling now I can see it being frustrating as even poor industry 1%ers are suffering right now lol.

Like you say.. items

 

There is only market for finished products and those need multiple industry's to make..

 

There is no market for intermediary part, alloys, etc

 

Everyone has mega factories the take in ore and output final product

 

There is no room for a screw producer.. or a pipe, or frame makers.. no one can be an alloy maker

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Just now, Vasten said:

Like you say.. items

 

There is only market for finished products and those need multiple industry's to make..

 

There is no market for intermediary part, alloys, etc

 

Everyone has mega factories the take in ore and output final product

 

There is no room for a screw producer.. or a pipe, or frame makers.. no one can be an alloy maker

You can sell items like steel, plastic, marble, etc..  Those will sell just fine over time and you can get some decent profit margins on those.  I sold marble product before but it just takes a while to get some buyers.  Magnets, screws, frames and those types of items I don't think there is a demand for.

 

Who knows you can always make small amounts and test the market.  I recently got into certain voxels to see if they would sell.

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14 hours ago, Vasten said:

Ok.. as a new player i finally understand why o.23 killed the player base..

 

"Specialize and use the markets" *boot to the head with schematics*

 

I came in after schematics so I didnt get what all the fuss was about.

 

Ok.. I have been specializing and have some t4/t5 refining and smelting and basic parts lines up.. I mine ore, refine, produce low level parts from t3 and t4 ores and materials... good mid level products...time to start using the market

 

What? The lag is so bad its basically unusable? It would take riddiculous time just to go around and put my stuff for sale

 

What, all the high level stuff is built by god like tychoons with full production lines that dont buy anything but ore?

 

So I'm left thinking.. 


I FINALLY GET IT!!

 

I was defending this game and arguing that people must have been cry babies overreacting, cause I was making progress in specializing... I just hadn't got to the point where I was ready to sell yet....as soon as I tried to "take my wares to market" I realized instead of creating an economy of specialists.. all they did was creat an economy of elite industry tycoons and ore mining peasents

 

At least before 0.23 I could have said...oh well.. if the markets and economy are unusable I'll just make my own stuff and have fun

So........you didn't look at markets FIRST to see what the fuss was all about and then defended the game because ppl who DID look at the market first were telling you how it is but you thought they're crybabies?

Who doesnt look at the market first when you decide what to produce? Lmao, that's golden 

 

I mean, guess it's good that you finally realised your mistake

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57 minutes ago, Vasten said:

 

 

There is no room for a screw producer.. or a pipe, or frame makers.. no one can be an alloy maker

Maybe when missions show up they could do missions like source and deliver 10KL of screws to Feli Market Place 1 or something.

 

im not a game developer, so I can’t offer solutions.

 

i have a reasonably good size factory, but I’m always broke.

 

my problem is I like factories but I don’t like the market stuff.

 

also when you look at the market and think I can’t sell there, a lot of sales go on behind closed doors.

 

Im in an org, and nearly all of my sales are build requests from other guild members on the discord. This means the orders or products never make it to the market place.

 

 

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Are AGG supposed to be a market item, or are they supposed to be an item to give a org an advantage if they pool their resources so that they can make them?

 

somebody was talking about the AGG market was a small monopoly and the prices were crazy.

 

I agree. I looked at the prices a few days ago. Now this is all from memory, so I may have the product wrong, but from memory they were selling for about 60 Mil. I did the math quickly with dual dot sh, and I think my production cost would have been under nine million.

 

I was thinking that’s crazy markup!

 

but I looked further, the price of the schematics to set up a production line for those is crazy due to schematics.

 

Somebody who is interested, do some math. 

 

Work out what the production time and cost is for one unit. Then determine how many you could make in one year if your production line ran 24/7/365. Now assume every one you made you easily sold.

 

You now have a yearly production cost and a yearly production number.

 

Now determine how much it would cost to set up that production line. Ignore the cost of machines etc as that is trivial compared to the schematics. Just determine the cost of schematics to make one per manufacturer cycle. That price is crazy high.

 

now let’s say we want %30 profit. Let’s be honest that’s reasonable. But most try for lots higher.

 

How much would the sale price be if you wanted to make a %30 profit and pay back your expenses in one year.

 

Now we have a fair price; how good or bad is it compared to the current price. I may do the figures when I get home from work if nobody does before then.

 

This begs the question, are these crazy high cost items really there for mass purchase, or are they there for orgs who can go together and put up the investment capital to be able to buy the schematics so that they can offer there members something cool which is t on the market.

 

same thing probably goes for warp beacons, exotic weapons/engines etc.

 

Sales items or advantages that a large org can offer its players?

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14 hours ago, CoyoteNZ said:

Are AGG supposed to be a market item, or are they supposed to be an item to give a org an advantage if they pool their resources so that they can make them?

 

somebody was talking about the AGG market was a small monopoly and the prices were crazy.

 

I agree. I looked at the prices a few days ago. Now this is all from memory, so I may have the product wrong, but from memory they were selling for about 60 Mil. I did the math quickly with dual dot sh, and I think my production cost would have been under nine million.

 

I was thinking that’s crazy markup!

 

but I looked further, the price of the schematics to set up a production line for those is crazy due to schematics.

 

Somebody who is interested, do some math. 

 

Work out what the production time and cost is for one unit. Then determine how many you could make in one year if your production line ran 24/7/365. Now assume every one you made you easily sold.

 

You now have a yearly production cost and a yearly production number.

 

Now determine how much it would cost to set up that production line. Ignore the cost of machines etc as that is trivial compared to the schematics. Just determine the cost of schematics to make one per manufacturer cycle. That price is crazy high.

 

now let’s say we want %30 profit. Let’s be honest that’s reasonable. But most try for lots higher.

 

How much would the sale price be if you wanted to make a %30 profit and pay back your expenses in one year.

 

Now we have a fair price; how good or bad is it compared to the current price. I may do the figures when I get home from work if nobody does before then.

 

This begs the question, are these crazy high cost items really there for mass purchase, or are they there for orgs who can go together and put up the investment capital to be able to buy the schematics so that they can offer there members something cool which is t on the market.

 

same thing probably goes for warp beacons, exotic weapons/engines etc.

 

Sales items or advantages that a large org can offer its players?

I build AGG S and M. S profit margin is better and requires less investment (M is just too slow to build, you get like 2 every month). That's why their price is high. Even with high price not sure it's worth it.

 

Beacons have good profit margin but market is as stable as 75year old man d??k. You never know what you will sell it for.

 

Rare engines have more produced than there is a market for.

 

Exotic weapons, do you know the state of the PVP and that there is no PVE ? You can buy to have those to "when it finally arrives" but not really necessity (WTS exotic precision rails).

 

/market analytics

 

There are less "big orgs" and more "tycoons". You don't need an org to get it right, you just need to play economics right, do math, make a plan and stick to it. There is 0 interest in "orgs" atm.

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@Vasten You have earned a standing Ovation :)

 

And when you grow a bit more you will find out even more about the pitfall of 0.23 and the reason a lot of people raged over the schematics debacle where some players bought them for 10% of actual price

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Personally I think if schematics had to be learnt as skills things would have been easier. 

 like personal cores, limit each player to a number of schematics per level and have another skill that allows the player to learn higher tier schematics. 
 

Then finally create a physical interaction needed to keep the machines running (maintenance, fueling, or skill level tweaks that wear off as time goes by)

 

that would have helped, I suppose. By no means perfect, but still better than money making schematics making money cycle. 

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2 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

maintenance, fueling, or skill level tweaks that wear off as time goes by

I agree with everything else, but the quote above since we've technically already got the first two, and somewhat have the 3rd:

- Fuel is just an additional ore requirement.

- Maintenance is effectively the desync bug that was randomly jamming industry units and required replacement or turning it off and on again.

- Degrading skills are essentially another form of the industry desync bug - you're clicking a button to turn it on again.

 

I honestly don't think there's any mechanics they can add to industry to make it more engaging that wouldn't be creating tedious busiwork. For that I think they'd need to introduce completely new mechanics to the system. Just my 2cents.

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Players crashing, really was a good thing... and they lost items to... so they had to buy more... wait, wait! so instead of fixing the issue CAUSING people to crash *Coughs towers* they removed a key game play loop instead...

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