Jump to content
le_souriceau

Let's talk DU quits

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Bobbie said:

What game is that?

We know very well what game that is! I don't wanna advertise anything here. I can afford to play as a robot, even C-3PO, if things are working better in that game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to be honest here but I read a lot of subjective arguments here which really have nothing to do with why DU is not in the place it should be. Most of these arguments are based on expectations which are not met and generally these are not met because people come into the game or play the game based on what they want to see and not what is there.

 

just a few..

Flight model in DU is not the best sure, but it's not terrible and generally woks well. That you crash (and burn) a lot probably is because you are too heavy, come in too steep or simply did not design your ship well enough for it's purpose. I know I've done it but I analyze why it happens, fix it and try again until it works. If you want to argue that he engine elements are too bulky and thus prevent building nice looking ships as there's engines sticking out everywhere sure, I take that point but he mechanic is solid enough.

 

Starbase arriving (if it does) next year may have an impact but not because it s  a better game. It may have an impact because it's a different game which may suit some (or many) better and thus they move on. It does not mean DU is worse, just different.

 

The building tools in DU are not terrible, they allow you to create constructs of all sorts and while the argument can be made that they are to basic and will in general lead to shoeboxes and the fact that elements are designed in such a way they do not easily "disappear" into the design means most ships look alike as the used elements are the same. Frankly, that is an aesthetic thing and doe  not affect the game mechanics, just he looks. NQ needs to improve on that for sure but it's not a game breaking or crucial thing to do _now_.

 

 

Frankly, what is going on is something I have been bringing up for years now, as have others; NQ does not listen. NQ works/lives in their own little bubble and have a grossly over-optimistic outlook on the state of the game and where they are going. IMO they have spent (and lost) a lot of time with logistical and organizational issues which also gobbled up a lot of money. NQ is way to concerned about image and keeping people happy which mans they are not able to make the choices they need to make and in the end.. do not make people happy. It is a structural issue with the company which has led them to the point where they are out here, without funding basically and forced to do what they never wanted to do  which is to be in open development.

I've been berated, threatened, called names and what have you but I can only say.. I was not wrong. DU is a game which hold an immense promise and potential and is based on a vision and dream which is great. But it's being build by a company where the mantra seems to be to sweep what does not work under the rug by working around the symptoms to make them go away instead of taking on the cause of the issue head on. And the result is that the cause of these issues keeps popping up as time goes on which is manifested in the same issues reappearing time after time.

 

It's no secret NQ is operating an a very limited budget, it's been pretty much stated in several interview and even used as an excuse for not doing some things. And NQ is not learning as they continue to set themselves up for more setbacks by backing themselves into a corner regarding their options to progress the game and continuing to project an unrealistic roadmap.

 

I'm going to say it; there is no way for NQ to have DU in a state ready for "release" in the 10 months or so they have left to get there, it's just not going to happen. JC can say he believes they can all he wants, but I am pretty sure he knows he is trying to sell a deadline that is not possible to meet with the current amount of work that remains to be done. I really hope that NQ comes to their senses and get back to a more realistic timeline which puts "release" at least 18-24 months away.

 

Right now, the technical debt that has been built up alone will take months to get resolved, all the features NQ wants to get in to the game at release will not get done in 10 months. I'm just afraid, NQ will keep sweeping stuff under the rug and push more features into the game try try and make it to release in 10 months or so but that will only mean that he game arrives in a bad state. Right now the game is far from being "beta".. I would not even classify it's state as Alpha, more pre-Alpha still.

 

NQ needs to stop painting an unrealistic picture for the state of the game. They need to start allowing their community to get involved by opening up the game through an API so that an ecosystem can be built around the game by the community. 

 

The outstanding issues at the core of the game, some of which  have been there since pre-alpha, need to be addressed and that includes a more stable backend. Frankly, the game world cluster itself seems to be pretty stable, it's the backend which is causing most of the issues we see. As long as these structural issues are not addressed, they will keep showing up which will continue to mean delays in getting features into the game and working smoothly.

 

The fact (as he literally stated) JC sees no red flags preventing a "release ready" state for the game in the next 10 months or so is just that.. a huge, big red flag

 

Can NQ get Dual Universe over the finish line? I do not see why not but they won't be able to do so unless they start injecting some reality into their own expectations, communication and roadmap as well as start accepting that he game is far from the state they think/hoped/expected it to be right now. NQ says they still expect to deliver DU as a released game within a year from now. That is an unrealistic projection and they should know that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

NQ needs to stop painting an unrealistic picture for the state of the game. They need to start allowing their community to get involved by opening up the game through an API so that an ecosystem can be built around the game by the community. 

I already shared this story in Alpha forums, but think in context its worth repeating for everyone.

 

There is indy game -- Holdfast: Nation At War, generaly napolenic wars fps focused on organized event-battles (up to 200 players now I believe). At start -- 3-4 people without serious prior gamedev experience (Mount&Blade modders), tiny budget of personal savings. 

 

Obviously, they stuggled hard. Constant tech issues, lack of content, bad balance, turtle pace development -- you name it. Classic indy collection.

 

Yet, once game hit early public access, they took unprecendentaly transparent, humble and, retrospectivly, pragmatic stance:

 

  • Hodfast devs were activly present on forums and available for questions and discussions (granted, with several day lag and limits, but still), so feedback loop on was extreamly fast and up to date. 
  • Roadmaps were humbly cut/narrowed to things they actualy can do (without BS) + great deal of honesty with setbacks. This greatly increased trust of community, obviously.
  • They played with players regulary (at least once per week) participating in event battles as common grunts. This given them unprecendented understanding how game actualy played in practice, not theory, balance, patterns, what is fun/boring etc.
  • Some bright heads in community were allowed to tinker with game to some extent, that produced a lot help. One such enthusiast was so good with tech side of game, they invited him to join team as programmer. Extensive help of community also allowed to produce pretty top notch localizations with 0 costs. Well, they given participants free code copies of game (I was one of translators, so observed all this kitchen a bit from inside).

 

Armed with such approch devs grinded way to release with greatly improved product. No chances for that wihout community support/participation. Sure, at the end game still far from perfect and probably never be unversaly known and popular, but it works decently well for niche dedicated community. Product made some modest buck for devs. If not epic win, not a failure too, considering horrible initial odds.

 

This is example of such thing done right in situation with very low resources. 

 

In can be said, that DU is much larger and complex game. True, it need own repecies. But DU also depends on much more complex systems, where well-organized involvent of community even more essential for any degree of success.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2020 at 2:53 AM, NQ-Naunet said:


To my understanding, the canopy glass elements that you all see in-game were meant to be available to players, but they suffered from severe collision issues which made them difficult to 'snap together' (especially the diagonal ones). We kept those specific designs for internal use only while we worked to resolve the collision problems, which is why they're present in-game as elements but players can't craft them... yet™. ;) 

 

All they needed to do was make glass clear and disable glass-glass collision.  Let glassbe intangible to other glass. 
 

Basically allow glass to overlap or be placed completely through other panes of glass and the problem goes away

 

—-

 

i stopped playing for a few months but just came back last week because I have built a new computer.  
 

For me, it’s the few, nonsense decisions in the physics/chemistry of the crafting that gets me 

 

concrete is T2


building building materials as opposed to requirements for spacecraft building materials are insanely expensive. 
 

T-zero building materials should be a thing. stone, rock, wood. Basically all the shit people used to build stuff with from the 20th Century BC should be mineable in open cast quarries. 
 

glass should be craftable from sand. 
 

mining coal for wood is just so, so stupid I’m inclined to use the r-word when I think about it. 
 

seriously, just no!

let us farm or plant renewable patches of land for wood harvestables. 
 

you can harvest renewable iron, coal, aluminum, chrome, sodium and others but trees and flowers are not harvestable... ffs!! 
 

Mining is an abomination.  

 

but for me, one of the biggest wtf moments is:


rockets are higher tier than Space engine....

 

what the actual... fudge!!?!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that is getting me is how I almost filled up my hex with building foundations and all of a sudden I get no more surface ore spawns in my hex. I can only make 1 building due to that factor. I spent 5 hours last night running around looking for surface ores, did all the tricks to make them spawn. The only way for me to make them spawn was to delete all the static cores that was near all the dormant land. And walla they respawn. So filling up my hex with a city is a no go until that is fixed :(

 

I haven't got into ship building yet but plan on building my old space engineers ship that is about 600k blocks large and meets the SE physical shape limit. I was planning on building the frame for it after the city foundation was built but with that surface ore glitch, I cannot continue the build. This was gonna be the first ship with a prison in it and a full 64 person kitchen, bar and cafeteria. 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1735683760

 

From a building standpoint. I  never really had a problem getting any materials by mining surface ores. I'm use to grindy games and can only game 3 hours a day, maybe less. But I still manage to building huge things and have fun doing it in this game. Other then the markets being screwed, my surface glitch and ppl getting scammed out. I've been having a great time playing, well until this dumb glitch. Hopefully they will find and fix most of the problems that we are facing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2020 at 10:16 PM, DylTheRipper13 said:

This may or may not be helpful but I personally enjoy the direction of all the development. The only thing I'm not enjoying is the tech side, hopefully there will be a lot of optimization. I run a really high end system and I still struggle with it. In my opinion they have a lot to do and have been chipping away at it at a good pace and in a good way. My vote would be stay the course, really like what's been done and my excitement hasn't lost any momentum. 

 

I'm not sure why people are upset that certain aspects of the game aren't fully developed. This is a beta. That seems to me to be the point

 

I'm glad to hear you think we're on the right track despite the tech side of DU feeling underwhelming at its current stage. :) 

 

I hope we continue to excite you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really happy to discover this thread with a new recruit at NQ to take note of our various feedback.
 

Before answering the main question of this topic. I also think it's vital that NQ play their game with the players. Some kind of event where the devs would fight against the players for example would be beneficial for the dev team and also to keep the game alive.
 

To come back to the subject, I do not intend to stop playing and stop support the game. On the other hand, even if I spoke about this game to my friends, I did not actively solicit them to bring them in (despite I still have free beta keys!).
 

Why didn't I bring all my friends over ?
 

The one and only reason is the lack of PvP.
Okay, the current balancing isn't the friendliest and most seller, but a bad meta isn't a reason for not having PvP.
 

It’s very comfortable to have safe zones in the game. We’re not questioning that choice.
But why the hell are we not allowed to be just one area with resources of exclusive interest to PvP ?
 

My friends aren't creative, they won't come to the game to build buildings, or build ships, or do LUA.
On the other hand if they come, they will mine, will manufacture factories and the elements and all that is necessary for the practice of the PvP.
 

You don't offer ANYTHING for this kind of player. Once in the game what are they going to do other than get bored?
 

Even the exploration is pointless, all the planets are bland and without difficulties or peculiarities. The scientific reality of the known universe is beyond even the imagination that NQ has shown to date !
 

NQ give us a planet without the 2.5 SU safe zone and jamed radar, with resources exclusive to it. And you will see or you would have seen a whole bunch of happy players on the game. Big pitched battles, blockades, logistics, mercenarism, piracy… Here is all that could have done the daily life of a large number player in the game. Here's what NQ has miss through since the September launch.
 

Of course this is the reason why my friends are not in the game.
 

But this is also the case for players with whom we have been able to play, who have discovered the game and withdrawn out of boredom.
 

The game need PvP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

You think mining would be what it is today if JC had to mine all the ore to build his castle?

That..

 

I got mega nodes waiting to be cleaned out, but I just cant any more. Just the thought of the 'collecting ore' process removes any hint of creativity or will to join the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

That..

 

I got mega nodes waiting to be cleaned out, but I just cant any more. Just the thought of the 'collecting ore' process removes any hint of creativity or will to join the game.

Ha - we found a 2.4mil limestone meganode - and the guy who went to clear it out logged off about 400k in....and we never saw him again....well I mean I see him on Discord....but he's not playing DU....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

That..

 

I got mega nodes waiting to be cleaned out, but I just cant any more. Just the thought of the 'collecting ore' process removes any hint of creativity or will to join the game.

Ditto. I have so many megas claimed across at least 3-4 different planets but I just don't have the willpower to mine them out.. not to mention I had started getting hints of RSI from the ones I had been clearing.

 

NQ: Could we please get a second auto mine toggle for retrieving the scoop as well? Repetitive Stress Injuries are a real thing and the current mining system is a breeding ground for them.

 

If anyone cares what all megas I still have claimed, they're in the spoiler below.

Spoiler

Alioth: 1.6M limestone, 2.5M bauxite

Madis: 3M hematite, 3M quartz, 2M bauxite, 1.5M natron

Feli: 3M hematite, 1.5M malachite

S-something planet: 3x 1.5M chromite, 2x20k of a t5.

Big fat Meh. Just cba to mine them out; gotten back into some of my other more Satisfying games. 

 

oh, just remembered something else.

 

Hey NQ. Do you remember when you promised people an extra free month of sub time as compensation for all the problems? I just checked and mine still expires December 12th.

 

When do you plan to credit the extra month?

 

image.png.763d80c1b00c156b60e4d1f00d755a39.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/15/2020 at 8:04 PM, Eternal said:

I totally agree! I just watched another recent dev interview just before writing this and I don't think they see how important addressing this issue is. Most people who are not into PVP are builders. This is a civilization-building and PVP MMO! They have a priority in addressing the lack of PVP contents but what about what is lacking in civilization-building? The biggest problem is the building editor itself. Those builders would be more likely to stay, join this game, or continue playing for the long-term if the editor improve to be more intuitive (easy to use), robust, and productive, and the extensiveness to be available without the complicated and time-consuming method of voxelmancing. Nobody wants to put up with voxelmancy and creating voxel libraries from voxelmancy because of the time-extensive and difficult process. Please see the importance in this!

 

I used to be a hardcore and dedicated player. I've been following this game since 2017 when I first heard about it and I backed this game up 3 times. Furthermore I own 3 high-end computers on 1 large desk all capable of running this game. I've been playing/testing the game before for atleast 8 hours everyday and I do have a very demanding job. Right now, I've transitioned to being softcore (casual) because the building editor is terrible. What was once a male lion that will eat anything is now a pussy cat. This is not a good sign because I am losing my interest in the game. To restore my dedication, the editor needs to be improved so content creators like myself can produce designs and build at better quality without the ridiculous and unnecessary effort that it currently requires.

 

I'm still playing the game but I'm now playing it very casually. It is not that I cannot put up the time (I do have the time), it is that I'm losing my interest.

ETERNAL!!! YOU are my favorite Canadian. You have hit the nail on the head, killed the cockroach, kicked the cat, everything you say is true.

 

Just to reiterate - voxelmancy at its current state is a joke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2020 at 11:57 PM, Poliwopper said:

I haven't played for awhile because the core features are extremely unsettled and I don't want to spend a bunch of time on a project only to have the core gameplay change. But it's Beta.... it is what it is. That's just the stage of the game.

 

The core issue with DU, though, is in my opinion that it must choose between being a building-with-friends game and a game that people play who enjoy challenging progression. It feels like it tries to be both, which I do not believe is possible.

As someone who enjoys progression, I played a lot of DU but simply ran out of things to do. Everything is far, far too easy to get. I don't have an issue with the *amount* of content, for a Beta game... But the ease with which you can get to late-game content really seems bad.

 

Some players want to play more or less in creative mode, and if NQ adds 10x the content depth those players will want everything to be 10x easier. This is a perfectly reasonable thing to enjoy and a reasonable game to make, and it looks to me like the direction DU is going.

 

Other players (like myself) prefer to struggle, to need to work at progress, to lose ground every now and then. To fight for resources, to team up for protection. Doing this, after some *years* of playing, it should be possible to reach late-game toys.

 

It looks to me like DU will never be satisfying for players like me, at least not for long. Prioritization decisions made - leaving PvP for last, the balance of resources in the game, the ease of crafting, the balance of recipes, etc. - have cast this die already.

 

But I hope that NQ does not continue to try to straddle both gameplay styles, because that cannot be done. You cannot have creative mode on one or two planets and challenging progression gameplay on another. Whichever style of gameplay DU will be, it needs to be a choice and it needs to be baked deep into the design of the game.

Argument summary--

 

PVP

Them: Pvp is terrible... Pvp is boring...

 

Us - how much have you pvp'd?

 

Them: Once... Well maybe. 

 

Us - get out. 

 

 

Solo Play

Them: I have nothing to do as a solo player...

 

Us - isn't it supposed to be a team base group based game?

 

Them: I should be able to play the game anyway I want.. this game is terrible. 

 

Us - Get out.

 

 

Industry

Them: it takes alot of time and is tedium...

Us - omg just go quit already. 

 

Look we all get that the game isn't perfect but the game is what you make it. It's time for the people who play the game to give suggestions and have quality conversation versus the negative armchair expert player Archtype that is beyond cancer. Most of you want your cake and eat it too... Half of you complain that the game is boring or low intricacy/emergent game play but are the same individuals who whine over 'open world pvp'. How do you think the emergent game play occurs? 

 

 

For the PVPers, we are going to have a round table. We wanna set up talk about what we see as far as problems/successes of pvp and wanna offer insight to how to improve based on. Then hopefully NQ listens. The largest and best political/wars/conflicts/guineas book of world record events occur in Null sec. Where CCP doesn't try to build the sandcastle for you.. 

 

But alot of the same gripes and complaints are just complaining because the game isn't exactly how they imagined it... Or the game isn't playing itself for them and You have to make your own content.  Or even worse... They expect the game to be one way.. and it since it isn't..  the game isn't great. 

 

Poliwop brings up numerous good points... People complain it's boring but most of you would cry if it were hard. The problem is for the majority of DU community the game is fun. I feel many of you will never be satisfied. NQ is a small company doing massive company things. I'm sort of tired of reading the constant complaining. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a backend / frontend developer myself for many years:

1) UI / UX for this game is... not made by designers but by engineers. In this regard it is horrible from a designer standpoint. Not to knock the work of the engineers but this is... not a game ui. I'm sorry. This is a product of a bygone era. Modular ui is generally cancer in a game. And when you're married to it, it spawns very very bad children.


2) LUA API is abysmally incomplete. Simple things like knowing what is in a container, or better yet, what is the actual capacity of a container WITH talents... is not a thing. Another example: for some odd reason getYaw() was removed from gyro api. And that was bloody useful... And the list here goes on and on and on. Features that are missing, features that disappeared, etc... Which leads to lots of arcane, frankly, bad code going around, some of which I myself wrote.

3) Market 15... was ... well.. that is a rather permanent face of NQ now. Not to mention poor communication. Not to mention grey rules that you twist in your own favor just to save face.

4) Game has no progression. Literally nothing to do. Players don't care, everyone is self sufficient. Markets are a joke, it's easy to get whatever you want pretty fast. Resources are uniform. All elements are the same regardless who made them, etc... everything becomes more of a chore rather than less, there is hardly any automation, and the stuff we do with LUA are just silly work-arounds that in the end are NOT automation. This game is the opposite of what MMOs generally are: the more time you spend in DU the more labor intensive and less automated things become.


5) Less Content, More Grind. NQ, especially JC keeps throwing around statements such as:  "we expected people to get to space from starting planet in X days" (took me 15 minutes, took other players even less). "Mining is too fast for our liking", "brakes are too effective".... these are all statements that lead me to believe JC didn't mine for his castle, and has probably never built an M or L core all by himself with his own in-game resources. All of this in summation is rhetoric that I interpret this way: We can't provide content fast enough, lets slow the game waaaaaaay down and make it more grindy, more time consuming, because well... uh... we don't have content for you...sorry. It would have been a LOT MORE helpful to the community if NQ actually was transparent as to what is going on there.

 

6) PVP. Geez.. so much to say here... a lot of it has already been said better than I could ever say it. Seems like from the get-go casuals weren't clued in to how to make transport ships viable for slowboating... like for example... putting some voxels on the boat for a start. There was so much whining about one shot kills that I believe NQ was pushed into the direction of not removing planet safezones. We need atmo pvp, we need interdiction, we need material variability, we need to fight for something. Radars need to be fixed. Guns widgets need rework (ui / ux is so terrible and non-ergonomic I can't believe this is 2020).

 

7) Lots more... but I will stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Anderson Williams said:

Argument summary--

 

PVP

Them: Pvp is terrible... Pvp is boring...

 

Us - how much have you pvp'd?

 

Them: Once... Well maybe. 

 

Us - get out. 

 

 

Solo Play

Them: I have nothing to do as a solo player...

 

Us - isn't it supposed to be a team base group based game?

 

Them: I should be able to play the game anyway I want.. this game is terrible. 

 

Us - Get out.

 

 

Industry

Them: it takes alot of time and is tedium...

Us - omg just go quit already. 

 

Look we all get that the game isn't perfect but the game is what you make it. It's time for the people who play the game to give suggestions and have quality conversation versus the negative armchair expert player Archtype that is beyond cancer. Most of you want your cake and eat it too... Half of you complain that the game is boring or low intricacy/emergent game play but are the same individuals who whine over 'open world pvp'. How do you think the emergent game play occurs? 

 

 

For the PVPers, we are going to have a round table. We wanna set up talk about what we see as far as problems/successes of pvp and wanna offer insight to how to improve based on. Then hopefully NQ listens. The largest and best political/wars/conflicts/guineas book of world record events occur in Null sec. Where CCP doesn't try to build the sandcastle for you.. 

 

But alot of the same gripes and complaints are just complaining because the game isn't exactly how they imagined it... Or the game isn't playing itself for them and You have to make your own content.  Or even worse... They expect the game to be one way.. and it since it isn't..  the game isn't great. 

 

Poliwop brings up numerous good points... People complain it's boring but most of you would cry if it were hard. The problem is for the majority of DU community the game is fun. I feel many of you will never be satisfied. NQ is a small company doing massive company things. I'm sort of tired of reading the constant complaining. 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice example of simping right there, champ.

 

Maybe you should read the post right below yours.
Or watch my review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, IvanGrozniy said:

Market 15... was ... well.. that is a rather permanent face of NQ now. Not to mention poor communication. Not to mention grey rules that you twist in your own favor just to save face.

They said it was to 'save face'. They brutalized their own face with what they did, and it's about 80% of the reason why I quit. They had a chance to enshrine the broken market and make it part of the game's lore (no more wipes, remember? Using admin commands to restore it was a wipe, of sorts), and instead they acted like petty tyrants of a playground sandbox.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IvanGrozniy said:

There was so much whining about one shot kills that I believe NQ was pushed into the direction of not removing planet safezones.

Has NQ ever done any kind of reliable polling to see what percentage of the players don't like a certain mechanic? Seems to me it shouldn't be terribly hard to have an ingame poll thing for hard numbers. Tie it to some kind of reward so people are encouraged to participate. Like .. maybe the daily bonus?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sees an Anderson Williams comment....

Scrolls riiight on by... (already knows pretty much 90% of what he'll say...) Probably taking a dig at "carebears" or builders... 
Hell, even DU voxelmancy and mining a supernode are more interesting.


Speaking of voxelmancy and mining:

Here is an anecdotal case I just experienced yesterday.

I have spent about 10 hours building a medium core, light and efficient freighter for short range Alioth/Sanc duties.  6 hours of that, I swear, was just trying to neaten up the corners between two diagonal planes.

We REALLY need some way to neatly reconcile two different surfaces in this game without magic and joss sticks!    
The finicky stuff is just too cumbersome and apparently needs some kind of blood sacrifice (or mood altering chemicals) to achieve perfection.

Speaking for myself (I don't like using "we" when I have no idea how others feel) It only takes one or two frustrations like this to put me in a sour mood... if I can't line up the vertices in this game between two different faces at odd angles, the whole construct looks pants and if I try and use the abomination that is the smooth tool, I end up with something that looks like a child's playdough creation.

As for mining, the other elephant in the room...


TO NQ:  Can anyone in your team honestly say that mining is going to become more sophisticated for the actual release?  And by sophisticated, I don't mean reducing the sensitivity of the angluar detector or making it slower. I mean actual new mechanics to make mining more engaging.

Is there going to be anything that will make hexes actually valuable other than proximity to the Seven Eleven?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Sees an Anderson Williams comment....

Scrolls riiight on by... (already knows pretty much 90% of what he'll say...) Probably taking a dig at "carebears" or builders... 
Hell, even DU voxelmancy and mining a supernode are more interesting.


Speaking of voxelmancy and mining:

Here is an anecdotal case I just experienced yesterday.

I have spent about 10 hours building a medium core, light and efficient freighter for short range Alioth/Sanc duties.  6 hours of that, I swear, was just trying to neaten up the corners between two diagonal planes.

We REALLY need some way to neatly reconcile two different surfaces in this game without magic and joss sticks!    
The finicky stuff is just too cumbersome and apparently needs some kind of blood sacrifice (or mood altering chemicals) to achieve perfection.

Speaking for myself (I don't like using "we" when I have no idea how others feel) It only takes one or two frustrations like this to put me in a sour mood... if I can't line up the vertices in this game between two different faces at odd angles, the whole construct looks pants and if I try and use the abomination that is the smooth tool, I end up with something that looks like a child's playdough creation.

As for mining, the other elephant in the room...


TO NQ:  Can anyone in your team honestly say that mining is going to become more sophisticated for the actual release?  And by sophisticated, I don't mean reducing the sensitivity of the angluar detector or making it slower. I mean actual new mechanics to make mining more engaging.

Is there going to be anything that will make hexes actually valuable other than proximity to the Seven Eleven?

I don't make fun of my food. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Anderson Williams said:

PVP

Them: Pvp is terrible... Pvp is boring...

Us - how much have you pvp'd?

Them: Once... Well maybe. 

Us - get out. 

 

Except the argument is not about the state of PVP from a PVP player perspective and not about being "boring", it is about how PVP is unbalanced and skewed towards PVP players when they target non combattant players. SO your argument here is void.

 

I'd say a big point is that PVP oriented players have the wrong expectations about  PVP in DU and ignore all the clear signs this is the case. And many PVP interactions are between "bored" PVP players and players who have both no interest in PVP and no real counter to it which afaik doe snot really include yourself and the crowd you fly with as you look for actual PVP which is a different subject. Buy arguing this though, you play into the hand of those who have a skewed expectation which in the process does not do you any favors either.

 

DU is NOT a PVP centric game and never will be. NQ clearly said that PVP has a purpose in game, it is not an (end)goal. That does not exclude the option to play purely in a PVP setting but it is the wrong expectation to have when you thing the game revolves around PVP which it does not.

 

Quote

Solo Play

Them: I have nothing to do as a solo player...

Us - isn't it supposed to be a team base group based game?

Them: I should be able to play the game anyway I want.. this game is terrible. 

Us - Get out.

 

Except there is _no_  requirement for the game to be played in a team/group and in fact, NQ has given off clear signals that the game should and will be playable solo. Will that mean some activity is out of reach? sure and it would be silly to deny or expect otherwise. Couples with the PVP part of your post, a Hauler who sets up a business for himself should not be _required_ to both fit armaments and recruit friends/other players to man them while hauling, he should have options to counter a possible attack like ECM which NQ has already said will come. Will flying unarmed pose a higher risk of ECM failing and you getting shot at? sure, but that is a risk you take when you fly solo and you should accept that while the point of it being fair to expect the options to do so is a valid one.

 

DU is NOT a "team base group based game" .. It is a civilization building game based around building communities and that does not exclude solo play at all. Playing solo does not mean you have no friends in game and/or do not work/play together on occasion and when the opportunity arises.

 

Quote

Industry

Them: it takes alot of time and is tedium...

Us - omg just go quit already. 

 

Frankly, most I hear is ppl saying Industry is too easy and seeing how, two months in, massive factories able to produce anything possible are not uncommon is a tell tale sign of that and NQ has already announced that this was not intended and that they will put measures in place to make (high level) industry complexes harder to achieve

 

 

Frankly, your comments boil down to this:

 

Them: X

You: Y

Them: no

You: if not Y then get out

 

And I'd say that is rather inconsiderate, egocentric and shortsighted. There is quite a bit more nuance to this (and I do actually expect you are well aware of this)..

 

 

  

8 hours ago, Anderson Williams said:

For the PVPers, we are going to have a round table.

And have a one sided, unbalanced outcome which will pretty much paint a picture for the game where you push it towards what are pretty much incorrect expectations based on what NQ has said is the purpose of PVP in DU? PVP is not a "stand alone mechanic", you can't discuss it and how it should evolve on it's own without considering the impact on the game as a whole.

 

If you are going to have a round table, have ALL voices/parties there. have an actual discussion on the pros and cons and weigh each others opinions and expectations. But my guess is you want to hear voices that align with yours , not those who may offer valid counters to it so to keep your bubble of expectations intact. I'd actually be more than happy to join such a discussion but pretty much expect that other opinion would simply be drowned out and pushed off the table to keep the argument focused on "how do we get our wants in a better place, no matter how it affects other views which we deem irrelevant"

 

 

 

I honestly believe DU will be able to stay alive without PVP, it will not be able to stay alive with just PVP. If you think otherwise, I can only  see an outcome where the game dies if you (and this those in the same mindset as yourself) had a say in its direction if you pursue this the way you seem to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

 

Except the argument is not about the state of PVP from a PVP player perspective and not about being "boring", it is about how PVP is unbalanced and skewed towards PVP players when they target non combattant players. SO your argument here is void.

 

I'd say a big point is that PVP oriented players have the wrong expectations about  PVP in DU and ignore all the clear signs this is the case. And many PVP interactions are between "bored" PVP players and players who have both no interest in PVP and no real counter to it which afaik doe snot really include yourself and the crowd you fly with as you look for actual PVP which is a different subject. Buy arguing this though, you play into the hand of those who have a skewed expectation which in the process does not do you any favors either.

 

DU is NOT a PVP centric game and never will be. NQ clearly said that PVP has a purpose in game, it is not an (end)goal. That does not exclude the option to play purely in a PVP setting but it is the wrong expectation to have when you thing the game revolves around PVP which it does not.

 

 

Except there is _no_  requirement for the game to be played in a team/group and in fact, NQ has given off clear signals that the game should and will be playable solo. Will that mean some activity is out of reach? sure and it would be silly to deny or expect otherwise. Couples with the PVP part of your post, a Hauler who sets up a business for himself should not be _required_ to both fit armaments and recruit friends/other players to man them while hauling, he should have options to counter a possible attack like ECM which NQ has already said will come. Will flying unarmed pose a higher risk of ECM failing and you getting shot at? sure, but that is a risk you take when you fly solo and you should accept that while the point of it being fair to expect the options to do so is a valid one.

 

DU is NOT a "team base group based game" .. It is a civilization building game based around building communities and that does not exclude solo play at all. Playing solo does not mean you have no friends in game and/or do not work/play together on occasion and when the opportunity arises.

 

 

Frankly, most I hear is ppl saying Industry is too easy and seeing how, two months in, massive factories able to produce anything possible are not uncommon is a tell tale sign of that and NQ has already announced that this was not intended and that they will put measures in place to make (high level) industry complexes harder to achieve

 

 

Frankly, your comments boil down to this:

 

Them: X

You: Y

Them: no

You: if not Y then get out

 

And I'd say that is rather inconsiderate, egocentric and shortsighted. There is quite a bit more nuance to this (and I do actually expect you are well aware of this)..

 

 

  

And have a one sided, unbalanced outcome which will pretty much paint a picture for the game where you push it towards what are pretty much incorrect expectations based on what NQ has said is the purpose of PVP in DU? PVP is not a "stand alone mechanic", you can't discuss it and how it should evolve on it's own without considering the impact on the game as a whole.

 

If you are going to have a round table, have ALL voices/parties there. have an actual discussion on the pros and cons and weigh each others opinions and expectations. But my guess is you want to hear voices that align with yours , not those who may offer valid counters to it so to keep your bubble of expectations intact. I'd actually be more than happy to join such a discussion but pretty much expect that other opinion would simply be drowned out and pushed off the table to keep the argument focused on "how do we get our wants in a better place, no matter how it affects other views which we deem irrelevant"

 

 

 

I honestly believe DU will be able to stay alive without PVP, it will not be able to stay alive with just PVP. If you think otherwise, I can only  see an outcome where the game dies if you (and this those in the same mindset as yourself) had a say in its direction if you pursue this the way you seem to be.

Actually no the argument has also been that it's boring. 'Waiting in a Pipe', '90s UI'... Yeah no it's not just about the big bad meanie pvpers picking on PVE'ers. No one is saying that DU's sole purpose is a pvp game. DU is a game of mining, building, trading and pvping. There are many pillars... Pvp is one of them.

 

Community is plural. Not singular. It's playing with like minded people.... Civilization is plural... Not singular... Thank you for proving my point. 

 

 

Actually several times NQ has, and JC has said the game is meant to be played as a community... So sure man play by yourself I am sure you will have fun. But you will never reach a level of accomplishment that a group play will. In theory you can play by yourself... But that's not gonna be the same as 'played best with others'.

 

I completely agree end level content should not be aquired in 2 weeks... But getting the items isn't the same as getting the end level content.. of building a civilization which is really the content the game is geared towards. You have to build your civilization or be apart of one being built. The problem is so many arm chair experts will complain when it's harder.. and filthy casuals will leave anyway because easy is now hard..

 

The constantly critique and commentary from some members of the community, yourself included, is heavily skewed in the way of criticism. Constant.. irritating... Karen Level criticism... So no it's not ;

 

ME: THIS

Them:No... 

 

It's more..

 

You: This

NQ: ok here is this....

You: not what I invisioned.. you are doing it wrong...

NQ: we are trying... Literally small company

You: The forums, my Twitter, and discord will hear of this. 

 

I would love to eventually have other members of the community involved in the Roundtable.. but your belief that if the PVPers shouldn't be the only ones involved is hilarious... I don't do INDY... Why should my say be equal and valid over something I have no idea about. This first roundtable will talk about pvp for the pvpers, and how to make pvp more inclusive.. before you pull typical blazemonger forum warrior.... 

 

Just watch the roundtable. I think you will be surprised. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Anderson Williams said:

Actually no the argument has also been that it's boring.

I'd say the comments and discussion in this thread are more subtle than that though and polarizing it in the way you do IMO is not productive. I get your point though.

 

 

Quote

Community is plural. Not singular. It's playing with like minded people.... Civilization is plural... Not singular... Thank you for proving my point. 

Community does not exclude being on your own or engaging in activities on your own. IMO the opinion that you _must_ engage with others to enjoy the game is noot a fair one. A hauler can be on his own mostly for sure and I see nothing wrong with that. Obviously it would benefit him/her if there is an organization supporting and clearly there would be an origin and destination interaction but overal their main activity can and should be possible to be conducted solo.

 

The frequently heard argument to "bring friends" or "have an escort" really overshoots the purpose and goals of the game. Arming your cargo ship and having X amount of people fly with you to defend should not be a requirement and for that purpose there needs to be options to minimize the risks such as ECM. NA has already acknowledged this and has said these mechanics will come into the game although that may take time. And I'm good with that.

 

Quote

Actually several times NQ has, and JC has said the game is meant to be played as a community... 

Again "playing as a community" is not the same as being with around others all the time and always including multiple players in activities. And NQ has literally stated that DU needs to be a game which can be played solo, with obvious restrictions in what can be achieved, which makes perfect sense.

 

Quote

The constantly critique and commentary from some members of the community, yourself included, is heavily skewed in the way of criticism. Constant.. irritating... Karen Level criticism... So no it's not ;

 

ME: THIS

Them:No... 

 

That is not the argument. Your initial post was "You say this,. I say that, you are wrong as I am right so get out". Bein involved/interested in combat is not a requirement to either have an opinion or discuss the pros and cons of PVP in the game. You pretty much are saying "you do not engage in PVP so you have no say in this".

 

I also do not at all agree that my comments are "Karen Level" and frankly, saying this pretty much invalidates your own argument as you show to not have any interest in actually addressing or considering other peoples opinion and simply dismiss them without any .. And in doing so the one being Karen is actually.. yourself.

 

I am actually very clear in that I see and understand how some will want to focus on combat as their main activity and have no interest really in the other components of the game. And that is fine but the same applies as with those who choose to go solo. You can't expect the game to bend towards your chosen playstyle which excludes some game pillars. DU is not about PVP, it is not centered around combat and conflict.

 

Does combat need some TLC and is it missing components to make it better? Absolutely and it is absolutely valid to make that argument. Denying that combat as it is will not be a mechanic which will be attractive to the general DU player base is IOMO short sighted and based around a blind desire to want to see it be functional and useful. While it remains to be seen how NQ will address the deficiencies in combat, the initial indicators are that they have an understanding of what they need to do and will start doing so in the next few weeks in applying three major changes:

 

  • Construct cross section will become a factor in hit/mis calculations
  • Radar lock range will be the same for all cores vs all cores
  • Weapon size availability will be dependent on core size

 

I'd say a good start from a combat perspective. What needs to come in as well is both (warp) interdiction and ECM which we know will happen but not just yet. (likely towards autumn/summer 2021)

 

 

Quote

Just watch the roundtable. I think you will be surprised. 

I expect the outcome of a "Good ol' boys PVP bubble roundtable" like you suggest will be preaching to the choir, predictable and not bring anything constructive for the game as a whole because your focus/objective will be to drive the game towards a combat/conflict oriented playstyle. You're welcome to surprise me and prove me wrong though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

I'd say the comments and discussion in this thread are more subtle than that though and polarizing it in the way you do IMO is not productive. I get your point though.

 

 

Community does not exclude being on your own or engaging in activities on your own. IMO the opinion that you _must_ engage with others to enjoy the game is noot a fair one. A hauler can be on his own mostly for sure and I see nothing wrong with that. Obviously it would benefit him/her if there is an organization supporting and clearly there would be an origin and destination interaction but overal their main activity can and should be possible to be conducted solo.

 

The frequently heard argument to "bring friends" or "have an escort" really overshoots the purpose and goals of the game. Arming your cargo ship and having X amount of people fly with you to defend should not be a requirement and for that purpose there needs to be options to minimize the risks such as ECM. NA has already acknowledged this and has said these mechanics will come into the game although that may take time. And I'm good with that.

 

Again "playing as a community" is not the same as being with around others all the time and always including multiple players in activities. And NQ has literally stated that DU needs to be a game which can be played solo, with obvious restrictions in what can be achieved, which makes perfect sense.

 

 

That is not the argument. Your initial post was "You say this,. I say that, you are wrong as I am right so get out". Bein involved/interested in combat is not a requirement to either have an opinion or discuss the pros and cons of PVP in the game. You pretty much are saying "you do not engage in PVP so you have no say in this".

 

I also do not at all agree that my comments are "Karen Level" and frankly, saying this pretty much invalidates your own argument as you show to not have any interest in actually addressing or considering other peoples opinion and simply dismiss them without any .. And in doing so the one being Karen is actually.. yourself.

 

I am actually very clear in that I see and understand how some will want to focus on combat as their main activity and have no interest really in the other components of the game. And that is fine but the same applies as with those who choose to go solo. You can't expect the game to bend towards your chosen playstyle which excludes some game pillars. DU is not about PVP, it is not centered around combat and conflict.

 

Does combat need some TLC and is it missing components to make it better? Absolutely and it is absolutely valid to make that argument. Denying that combat as it is will not be a mechanic which will be attractive to the general DU player base is IOMO short sighted and based around a blind desire to want to see it be functional and useful. While it remains to be seen how NQ will address the deficiencies in combat, the initial indicators are that they have an understanding of what they need to do and will start doing so in the next few weeks in applying three major changes:

 

  • Construct cross section will become a factor in hit/mis calculations
  • Radar lock range will be the same for all cores vs all cores
  • Weapon size availability will be dependent on core size

 

I'd say a good start from a combat perspective. What needs to come in as well is both (warp) interdiction and ECM which we know will happen but not just yet. (likely towards autumn/summer 2021)

 

 

I expect the outcome of a "Good ol' boys PVP bubble roundtable" like you suggest will be preaching to the choir, predictable and not bring anything constructive for the game as a whole because your focus/objective will be to drive the game towards a combat/conflict oriented playstyle. You're welcome to surprise me and prove me wrong though.

I reiterate my last statement again. Watch the roundtable... And give it a chance, give the pvpers a chance. :)

 

11/21 @1500 EST on VarietyMMOs on youtube

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...