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Planet Resource Deserts Are Not A Good Experience

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1 hour ago, Elrood said:

The hell? Maybe mine something what is not meganode too? Maybe - just maybe one actually useful ore run out in safety zone - petalite was only available on two moons. But beside that? Everything as far as i know can be mined. Not necessary in you backyard. So move you backside to where ore is and stop bickering about something not beeing 5 meters away... 🤦‍♂️ 
 

This OP and my posts are not complaining about how far away it is. Distance is not the concern nor risk. The game.mechanic in question is other than a trival amount of surface ore that spawns, how long will it be until the vast majority of ore is gone and large sections of worlds or planets themselves are completely void of ore? If there is a mechanic in play here or one planned, please explain. Wondering minds inquire...

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3 hours ago, Anopheles said:

Caverns tend to have smoother slopes.  Ore nodes tend to be ful of little "cuboid' straight sides, assuming no player smoothing.

When I dug 50km deep I found several deleted nodes on the way with no player entry on any side. This means NQ mustve deleted them at some point in the game. 

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The biggest issue here is tera scanners in the first place. You can scan 3 hexes in 15 minutes - Alioth has around 50000. So if only 500 players will be scanning the planet, assuming they would cooperate - they can scan whole Alioth in 8 hours. Even if we suggest cooperation of that scale is not possible - we obviously talking about rather very short time for the whole planet to be scanned (e.g. if corp will create 50 miners squad - which is a real number - they still need just a week or two to map the whole planet). And of course all T4+ will be mined out in a couple of months if not less. With this - system lifespan on release will be what - half a year? 

 

At this point of time and considering all the exploits that have been fixed - you can be sure that all hexes of current system are already scanned and this or that groups have full control of most T5 and majority of T4 either by mining out or placing TCU on mega-nodes

 

Easy fix for now would be to remove tera scanner, or decrease its efficiency - so it scans in a sphere radius, rather then the whole hex on full height. Long term solution will require complete overhaul of resources spawn system - with long thinking about what we can learn of current stupid outcomes of existing one.

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2 hours ago, ElGesem said:

Long term solution will require complete overhaul of resources spawn system - with long thinking about what we can learn of current stupid outcomes of existing one.

Agreed and perhaps it is in the works. The only ore that does regenerate is on the surface and mining that was an activity I only did as a solo for the first couple of days. I cant imagine that the long term solution to regenerating ore in the universe is returning to an activity that is really only done for the first initial days in DU. 

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We only have one solar system in the game right now.

 

Look at how full it is.  It's like rush hour on the highway in-between Alioth and the sanctuary moon.  I came within 14km of another ship going the opposite direction the other day.  It's only a matter of time before we start getting head-on collisions.

 

NQ has always said that they plan to add more solar systems.  Each one they add serves two purposes, first it's unchartered territory to explore, and an influx of new materials, and then once it's all cleaned out, it becomes a place for players to build stuff.

 

So the sooner we get rid of all the ore in this system, the sooner we get a new one, right? 😁

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On 10/25/2020 at 2:16 PM, le_souriceau said:

Well, Jago is kinda worst example to be honest (because of several factors in place), situation on other planets seriously better.

 

Like you still can reliable find a lot of rhodonite on Ion.

That's just a temporary band-aid... All planets will tend to zero at some point. Remember JC thought it would take a month to get to space from the get go... He also said the planet's resources would take "years and years" to exhaust. LOL

And the game isn't even out of Beta. Far from building a civilisation, we will be like the bugs from Men in Black, going from planet to planet, strip mining it of resources within a few months and moving on... There will likely be no meaningful civilisation built... Seriously, what were we expecting? Roads, hospitals, cities of gleaming skyscrapers like in Star Citizen.

No. we will get a bunch of swisscheese planets with half baked platform factories dotted on flat land, temporarily churning out goods and with just one or two places of frivolous, playful beauty spotted all too far between by the likes of ODY and Infinity.

And when full PVP happens, the lack of materials will come even more acutely.  We are living in a very short lived golden age of plenty, but within a year, without new planets to pillage and gut, there will be nothing left.

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48 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

No. we will get a bunch of swisscheese planets with half baked platform factories dotted on flat land, temporarily churning out goods and with just one or two places of frivolous, playful beauty spotted all too far between by the likes of ODY and Infinity.

Yet at some time, ODY and Infinity ironicly one of worst organized "offenders" in effective resource extaction/hoarding : )

 

Critical problem with civilization generaly same as we disussed ad nauseam during Alpha -- there is almost ZERO practical value in static position and static development. Territories, beyond small % that a good for trading (because near NPC markets) are all same and worthless. All value of game world in finite ore.

 

IRL civilization were more or less (with some caveats) based on idea, that people decided to abandon nomadic lifestyle and heavely invest into much more profitable in long run "river valley tiles".

 

Even in EVE critical part of concept is competing for valuable static positions to exploit their resources.

 

In DU you can only need 1 warehouse in SZ where you hoard ore you digged somewhere else (once!). Everything else is of very questionable value.

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11 hours ago, Avonthorn said:

This OP and my posts are not complaining about how far away it is. Distance is not the concern nor risk. The game.mechanic in question is other than a trival amount of surface ore that spawns, how long will it be until the vast majority of ore is gone and large sections of worlds or planets themselves are completely void of ore? If there is a mechanic in play here or one planned, please explain. Wondering minds inquire...

tldr:
Your problem is only the assumption that NQ will do nothing if critical ores somehow run out. Which imho would be so completely stupid on their part it simply won't happen. 
Worst case scenario - we will have week or two of harder to find tier 3/4 ore (well, rare will be actually rare while we mine remaining ore out) than week or two without one of the ores before they discuss out what to do and implement solution.

Longer verions:
On Alioth, if it wasn't mined earlier it will give you around 500k of each tier 1 ore without any meganode/supernode present - so you have minimal amount.  I don't remember out of my head how much tiles there are in alioth, but lets sum it up to a lot. Most of tiles i've scanned also had between 10k to 30k tier 2 ore. Again without meganodes. Feel free to calculate how long it would take to mine that out. Just don't use meganodes mining time because you will get bullshit results. Mining meganodes is probably order of magnitude faster to get same amount of resources.

They already have surface rock regenerating and they said they won't add ore veins regeneration - but, common, they are not morons. Tier 3 if it will run out before asteroids mining or other way of mining are implemented - in WHOLE accessible universe - NQ will most likely just add it, probably deeper, below our current mining level. There is no way in hell that NQ will effectively kill half or two thirds of the tech tree because one ore run out. There is so much unused space below 1-2km below surface that they won't even have problem where to add it. Actually that apply to tier 2 too. They can do it even if we have asteroids mining and so on. (I just hope they will stop at tier 2 in the safe zone if/when they do it).

On side node - farming meganodes was already acknowledge by JC to be too easy. So yeah, probably they will change some stuff around that too. 

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3 hours ago, Elrood said:

tldr:
Your problem is only the assumption that NQ will do nothing if critical ores somehow run out. Which imho would be so completely stupid on their part it simply won't happen. 
Worst case scenario - we will have week or two of harder to find tier 3/4 ore (well, rare will be actually rare while we mine remaining ore out) than week or two without one of the ores before they discuss out what to do and implement solution.

Longer verions:
On Alioth, if it wasn't mined earlier it will give you around 500k of each tier 1 ore without any meganode/supernode present - so you have minimal amount.  I don't remember out of my head how much tiles there are in alioth, but lets sum it up to a lot. Most of tiles i've scanned also had between 10k to 30k tier 2 ore. Again without meganodes. Feel free to calculate how long it would take to mine that out. Just don't use meganodes mining time because you will get bullshit results. Mining meganodes is probably order of magnitude faster to get same amount of resources.

They already have surface rock regenerating and they said they won't add ore veins regeneration - but, common, they are not morons. Tier 3 if it will run out before asteroids mining or other way of mining are implemented - in WHOLE accessible universe - NQ will most likely just add it, probably deeper, below our current mining level. There is no way in hell that NQ will effectively kill half or two thirds of the tech tree because one ore run out. There is so much unused space below 1-2km below surface that they won't even have problem where to add it. Actually that apply to tier 2 too. They can do it even if we have asteroids mining and so on. (I just hope they will stop at tier 2 in the safe zone if/when they do it).

On side node - farming meganodes was already acknowledge by JC to be too easy. So yeah, probably they will change some stuff around that too. 

130k tiles on Alioth. are you sure you get 500k average, I think it's closer to 300k... assuming they're all mineable, which they're not.  Let's say  20k tiles cover the market districts and the ark.

110k x 300k =  33,000,000,000L of ore so about 30,000,000,000L of pure... With, say, 50k players, that's  600kL per person.  600kL.... per person... I've used more than that in aluminium already.

A single L core 25cm (1voxel)  wall takes 40,000L of material to make the honeycomb... So that's 15 floors of an L cube a single voxel thick and you have exhausted your share of an entire world's resources...
 

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31 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

130k tiles on Alioth. are you sure you get 500k average, I think it's closer to 300k... assuming they're all mineable, which they're not.  Let's say  20k tiles cover the market districts and the ark.

110k x 300k =  33,000,000,000L of ore so about 30,000,000,000L of pure... With, say, 50k players, that's  600kL per person.  600kL.... per person... I've used more than that in aluminium already.

A single L core 25cm (1voxel)  wall takes 40,000L of material to make the honeycomb... So that's 15 floors of an L cube a single voxel thick and you have exhausted your share of an entire world's resources...
 

50k players? 50,000 players? Nice assumption. I doubt we have 10k. But lets assume so. So its already 600kl*5 => 3000kL. Probably more. So excluding every super or mega node - and every tile which has more resources - if players would mine only alioth for bauxite, every one of them could mine 3kkL before it was exhausted. Thats base number - one to which we would start adding other numbers so everything from tiles above 300kL - of what on average we would be able to get. And we are still talking about 10,000 players mining on Alioth exclusively. Ignoring every other planet out there.

Your entire world resources analogy is just false - because you assumed lower end found on tile. You want to know entire world resource you need to use average, not lower end - not even sure if its median of resources in tiles.

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Ores might get scarce before NQ does something about it, but not a long term problem. Personally I have not encountered difficulty finding T1-T3 ores yet (haven't needed anything higher).

 

I don't think NQ did a great job with ore distribution, they should've used the entire volume of the planets for ore nodes instead of the top 2km, and the mega nodes and top-tier should only be super-deep, like beyond container link range.

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@GraXXoR, I think your calculations little bit off 🧙‍♂️

 

Alioth alone is like 250 k tiles + with 6% or so claimed (minus "npc tiles", that are not that gigantic part).

 

Methodology of calculating number of active player can differ, but my bet (based on Sanct claimes and presumed % of multi-accs and everyone who already more or less quit) we generously have like 10 k active (who likely mine seriously) players at best. 


Anyway, even if more players active, we have like 20+ aliothian tiles per person (that is quite a lot), and considering not everyone "lives" on Alioth or vincinity, its probably closer to 25/30 per person. This obviously gradualy becomes tighter.


Generaly, T1-T2 not a problem even for longer time (T3 - depends). Dodgy part is T4-T5. Digging on them already quite noticeble everywhere.

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2 hours ago, Haunty said:

Ores might get scarce before NQ does something about it, but not a long term problem. Personally I have not encountered difficulty finding T1-T3 ores yet (haven't needed anything higher).

 

I don't think NQ did a great job with ore distribution, they should've used the entire volume of the planets for ore nodes instead of the top 2km, and the mega nodes and top-tier should only be super-deep, like beyond container link range.

Again, the solution is not increasing the amount of ore, but decreasing the rate at which we consume it. If you now need 100l to make an object, make it cost 10l, or 1l, by doing so you are indirectly multiplying by a huge factor the value you can get out of those 100l.

Ships engine and containers could be tweaked too to reduce your ability to carry ores around.

Those 2 easy fixes would lengthen the ores lifespan while keeping your productivity intact.

If you dont want to touch the planets this Is the easiest and faster solution possible, imho.

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On 10/25/2020 at 2:57 PM, carijay766 said:

When I dug 50km deep I found several deleted nodes on the way with no player entry on any side. This means NQ mustve deleted them at some point in the game. 

This is a fantastic insight that might be why I am seeing significantly reduced t3-5 ore on my recent Jago scans compared to my scans from week 0 of beta (not restricted by NDA because I still have all those scans and I can show them to current players). I have scanned over a hundred tiles on and off for the last few weeks and the concentration of t3-5 ore is tiny compared to earlier. I have also come across a few fully cleared mega nodes of ore on those tiles. I just assumed a player mined them before I got there but NQ could have actually removed a significant portion of mega nodes from unscanned tiles. All the mega nodes I had been mining before were all still there but all the new tiles were really lacking in high tier ore. I was just scanning random tiles in the ocean away from the markets so it's unlikely that someone mined out all the tiles I scanned recently while leaving my first few tiles untouched.

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27 minutes ago, jsam333 said:

... but NQ could have actually removed a significant portion of mega nodes from unscanned tiles. 

To fuel a bit of conspiracy -- actualy not only unscanned?


Recently we with friends tried to mine one mega-node we discovered several weeks ago (fresh tile, put under TCU immediatly after scan). We found only smaller "mega-node" of like 45% of stated in scan principal mineral mass + more then dozen minor nodelettes...

 

No matter how we digged around for hours (and there is 3 of us, all quite experienced miners, so its decently reliable result), we never found remaining 50% (1kk+ of material), yet we encountered several "ghost" signatures and strangly twisted, "shrinked" nodes.

 

spider.png.99c727f969131a479d764a6b85aa6e66.png

 

It obviously can be generation bug. But also result of NQ interference of sorts too.

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On 10/25/2020 at 3:32 PM, ElGesem said:

The biggest issue here is tera scanners in the first place. You can scan 3 hexes in 15 minutes - Alioth has around 50000. So if only 500 players will be scanning the planet, assuming they would cooperate - they can scan whole Alioth in 8 hours. Even if we suggest cooperation of that scale is not possible - we obviously talking about rather very short time for the whole planet to be scanned (e.g. if corp will create 50 miners squad - which is a real number - they still need just a week or two to map the whole planet). And of course all T4+ will be mined out in a couple of months if not less. With this - system lifespan on release will be what - half a year? 

 

At this point of time and considering all the exploits that have been fixed - you can be sure that all hexes of current system are already scanned and this or that groups have full control of most T5 and majority of T4 either by mining out or placing TCU on mega-nodes

 

Easy fix for now would be to remove tera scanner, or decrease its efficiency - so it scans in a sphere radius, rather then the whole hex on full height. Long term solution will require complete overhaul of resources spawn system - with long thinking about what we can learn of current stupid outcomes of existing one.

You can scan with 10 scanners at once actually 

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I think what you are seeing is a lot of industrialists panicking because super nodes and mega nodes are getting mined out. This is driving ore prices up as people are forced to do more and more "regular" mining. And this takes a lot longer for the same ore. The result is that its getting less viable to mass produce whatever and selling it. This will start forcing them to retool their factorys to produce elements and the like and price them to ore to keep up. Or to be forced out of the market with "useless" factorys.

 

This theroy is supported by how many people are mentioning scanners and acting like normal resources dont exist. In the event they do acknowledge they exist im guessing a lot think mining them is just as fast or nearly so as supernodes. People forget alieoth is HUGE and is easily 240KM or so iirc (there was a news artical where they quadrupled the size from 60KM). They also forget that "normal" mining is fairly slow. Additonaly having scanned over 200 tiles myself they average around 500KL of T1 of each type and around 25KL of T2.

 

Granted we WILL eventually hit a point where ore is a problem. But that will require either a huge influx of players or a heavy long term concerted effort to strip a planet or a long long time. There are also super nodes off alieoth that even with warpcells being around 12k a pop make a huge profit to warp in and can keep us suplied. More if they can slowboat. Keep in mind many of us dredgers have large ships and even AGGs now. I for example can boat in 7KT of T1 easily if i want and even at 1000 warp cells to do so. thats easily a 40 million profit and i have and done and do this on a fairly regular basis. This will ensure that even if we somehow strip alieoth that the system will last easily through at least a year or more.

 

This is even before the consideration we are getting autominers and astroids here soon. We know nothing about the plans for them. For example will an astroid be basicly a supernode in the pvp zone? will their be smaller regenerateing fields in the PvE zone? Will auto miners collect existing resources or will they generate new "core" resources? and how fast? And this all disregards the fact if things get really dire they can add a second alieoth/more moons/other ways to get resources. Hell they can even do a "rouge planet" passing through the system or a jupiter like planet with many moons/planets. Or even dwarf planets.

 

Honestly this panic is silly and is again mostly a lot of people upset their easy cash cow is drying up.

 

Edit because i forgot to cover this.

 

Also for those thinking T3+ will dry up in short order. This is also unlikely, On moons where it was scarce to begin with...sure. On most planets not likely. And again if things get dire they will introduce other ways to get it. We have a lot of mining mechanics coming up so it would make sense to have T3-5 in astroids and if it gets too scarce or common they can simply add or remove more roids/add new moons/planets.

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17 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

@GraXXoR, I think your calculations little bit off 🧙‍♂️

 

Alioth alone is like 250 k tiles + with 6% or so claimed (minus "npc tiles", that are not that gigantic part).

 

Please find me a tile on alioth numbered greater than 130k... I am having trouble even finding tiles numbered even in the 120ks...

 

17 hours ago, Elrood said:

50k players? 50,000 players? Nice assumption. I doubt we have 10k. But lets assume so. So its already 600kl*5 => 3000kL. Probably more. So excluding every super or mega node - and every tile which has more resources - if players would mine only alioth for bauxite, every one of them could mine 3kkL before it was exhausted. Thats base number - one to which we would start adding other numbers so everything from tiles above 300kL - of what on average we would be able to get. And we are still talking about 10,000 players mining on Alioth exclusively. Ignoring every other planet out there.

Your entire world resources analogy is just false - because you assumed lower end found on tile. You want to know entire world resource you need to use average, not lower end - not even sure if its median of resources in tiles.

Why 600kl x 5 though?    Also, Alioth is the biggest planet by a large margin...

My entire "analogy" is not false, nor is it even an analogy.  Please try to make sense when you're making accusations.
I am of course giving a pretty much poor/worst case scenario...

Also, just because there are only 10k miners doesn't mean you only share the ore between 10k players becuase they are mining for other people and not just themselves...
And many just sell the ore for short term profits to the bots anyway, removing the ore from the game entirely... 

You seem very defensive all the time, is everything ok?
 

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3 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Please find me a tile on alioth numbered greater than 130k... I am having trouble even finding tiles numbered even in the 120ks...

tiles.png.aabccdbba7a47f83dc12bfbe40851897.png

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9 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

tiles.png.aabccdbba7a47f83dc12bfbe40851897.png


LOL... I just realised I have been basing my tile numbers on Sanctuary... Been here so long I forgot I moved off alioth...

Then you can adjust my figures by a factor of 2... Turning 8 months into 16 months supply.  Phew should be ok then ... probabaly many players will have quit before then, leaving more for the rest.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

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6 hours ago, Arctic_fox said:

I think what you are seeing is a lot of industrialists panicking because super nodes and mega nodes are getting mined out. This is driving ore prices up as people are forced to do more and more "regular" mining.

That's not the reason for t1 ore prices going crazy.

The topic below covers the real reason.

 

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The resources issue is becoming in my humble point of view the major issue currently in the game. However there is a second one which needs to be combined with this one which is that any "consumption" economy is based on the "destruction" of goods. This needs to be balanced out, there should be eventually infinite resources somehow due to random respawns which are adjusted according to the level of "danger" of the planet (More dangerous-difficult to reach=more resources) and the destruction of goods. As such currently only some resources are "destroyed" for good, such as fuel or scrap. everything else ever constructed stays in the game for ever and cannot be destroyed or lost.

 

I am not sure the economy will work on "scrap" and "fuel" only (and Ammo).

 

I  have seen various suggestions that "ships" which are damaged should eventually incur permanent destruction of its parts, makes perfect sense to me.

 

Anyways I have seen many suggestions for the game to be improved but the main driver, in my point of view, is the management of the economy and the resources. Both are currently apparently "broken".

 

No destruction of goods means no need of new resources means stagnation, frustration (especially of newcomers).

 

my 50 cents.

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