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MaxTheGrey

Planet Resource Deserts Are Not A Good Experience

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I wonder what percentage of the planet tiles have either been scanned or had at least one node mined from them. This week I've scanned over 100 contiguous tiles on Jago in the middle of the oceans, as far from any markets or obvious settled bases (multiple tiles claimed) as I could. Barely any high end resources and I've mined through at least 6 mega node empty caverns (and those are the ones I've randomly encountered). I kept going further and further to see if I'd get into an untapped area and just fell into another mega node cavern.

 

The problem with this mining experience is not only is it RNG to get the high end resource you might need, but the odds of finding them continue to decrease with time. We are barely into the launch of the beta here and great swaths of the planets are scanned and cleared of the best resources. Yes, I'm sure there are "many" untapped tiles out there but the odds of finding one are continuing to decline. This is not a good experience and will only get worse over time. 

 

Yes, new planets might help, leaving this system a resource desert. I really think some kind of ground healing, random resource respawn system is needed.

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What did you expect by going to the most populated planet outside of the carebear belt? This is a result of giving alpha testers a week of free digging time. Anyone who isn't mining rich planets day and night is going to be left behind and then you'll see gold being sold for 5k+ unless devs do something.

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Well, Jago is kinda worst example to be honest (because of several factors in place), situation on other planets seriously better.

 

Like you still can reliable find a lot of rhodonite on Ion.

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The thing though is that days into the "early start" for backers (as has been well documented), mostly due to a number of oversights and NQ being their usual overly optimistic and "you'll need years to do this" SELF, a lot of high tier ore was not only mined but pretty much removed form the game in order to fill up bank accounts. Even today, selling T1 ore and some easily crafted goods to bots is in many cases still a profitable and viable way to fund other activities, sinking massive amounts of resources into the black hole of the markets.

 

NQ had an opportunity then to fix that but decided it was all fine. now that they find players are pulling material out of the ground much faster than they expected (again, naïve thinking), they find themselves wit he dilemma of pretty much having removed the easiest way to resolve this from their toolset by not excluding wipes but pretty much making it a very hard sell for them to use that option and not run into an ocean of tears.

 

What will probably happen is, yet again, the general player base will see the fallout in overarching limitations and further nerfs and increase in cost to do basic stuff in game. Industry will probably get a lot more expensive and no doubt T2 industry elements will be brought in to further discourage the average player form making their own stuff and forcing them to the markets. And all of that because NQ really doe snot want the "Satisfactory" feeling the game currently has to become the predominant gameplay loop besides building ships (it's currently the only one really).


All of this and the needed balance passes really can only lead to one thing, a wipe. If NQ doe snot change their position on this they will just find themselves in a position where they can't properly balance the game and they will find themselves outpaced by the player base as far as how fast they will need to bring in new content and features which they will then need to rush through which will cause more balance problems. NQ said they will not wipe unless they have to and guess what.. They will have to, and sooner than they think.

 

It will be a very tough sell and there will need to be a lot of sweetening to make the wipe get through without to much of a riot buit a wipe will need to be done. Frankly, if they let us keep blueprints and put talent points back into the pool I honestly see no problem with it. The problem is that NQ seems to keep pushing the "no wipe unless absolutely needed and even changed their plans, sacrificing the game's visual quality, to do so.

 

Man up NQ.. I really believe it should be obvious you are not getting away from this, so bite the bullet and plan for a wipe, maybe sometime before Xmas. Good time to encourage new subs to come into a fresh, new and improved world and create some much needed revenue in the process.

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

It will be a very tough sell and there will need to be a lot of sweetening to make the wipe get through without to much of a riot buit a wipe will need to be done.

Problem is I can't even imagine amount of sweetening needed to make it at least resonably passable experience.

 

1) NQ already given message (at least how people mostly understood it) that no more wipes to be expected. 

2) Took money for Beta subs (implication are very clear in this context).

3) Principal problems grown from horrendous NQs game disign miscalculations -- when people almost begged not to do it like this. It will be seen like NQ make us pay for their mistakes, that were very avoidable, if they only listen feedback better. So it will be very bitter mood around.

4) I think overall there is noticeble (as I percieve it at least) exaustion between vets and risk not all survive starting everything from zero yet AGAIN.

5) Much more bad press...

 

So NQ kinda got themselves in trap, to be honest.

 

What still may work:

 

a) do some sort of very complicated partial wipe (not magic bp bs) --  with saving of particular assets and fair compensation for others, but this is not likely because NQ probably have nor manpower, nor, what is more important -- habit go this more nuanced route. 

b) just bribe players with insane ammounts of additional play time/dacs/cash shop currency and other shit -- yet this will very likely make them financialy non-viable.

 

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Problem with planet regeneration, that:

 

1) if its "too fast" and NQ confirmed they keeping current big SZ, lots of people will have again have even less reasons to ever leave it -- things go even more static and stale.

2) if its "too slow", then it useless and bring even more constant unrest with pleads to increase rates.

3) "golden middle" probably is impossibly hard to achieve.

 

Yet most importantly, regenrating ore will damage other connected pillars of game disign quite seriously (and not always in obvious ways).

 

At same time this is serious issue, because with time (peaking probably by begining of next year) and to at least before introducing new fresh systems, joining players will encounter more and more objective disadvantages based on natural depletion and go progressivly bitter about it.

 

 

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To provide some insight from someone who started a week ago, I have been wondering the same thing since I assumed incorrectly that if the surface ore was regenerating, so would the mines in the ground even if it was a slow rate. I have now exhausted some ores on Sanctuary and stated mining Alioth only to find a massive cavern mined out except 20L left. Funny but disappointing

 

I realize getting off the planet is key and a forcing function will be ores drying up but I'd hate to start a year from now when Alioth is even more bare. 

 

If the amount of ore in the universe is fixed and static, the server itself is a ticking time bomb and eventually there wont be any left. What does this server look like in 10 months let alone 10 years? Why does ore not regenerate is a heavy worry on my part for longevity of this amazing game unless I am missing something?

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Literally all they had to do was make TCUs collect ore from the tiles you own and produce passive income. This will make territory control crucial instead of a "hmmmm I guess I will cap some tiles to build a factory" afterthought.

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3 hours ago, Avonthorn said:

If the amount of ore in the universe is fixed and static,

 

In the "on paper" plan that is not a problem. Players mine out ore and that takes X amount of time, in that time NQ progresses through the development of the game and as the time comes that ore becomes even remotely scarce new solar systems will open up and the game extends, players start running expeditions to these distant systems to bring back the resources. Perfectly fine sequence of events and good for gameplay. And while we are still quite a ways away from that, players are moving much faster than NQ expected (no surprise there). The problem starts when NQ is unable to progress their development far enough to "keep up with us" and right now they have at least two years of work in the pipeline before IMO they can even start considering expanding the universe.. 

 

 

The problem will now be that NQ will need to make further compromises and likely push out some planned additions beyond or further beyond "release" in order to provide the player base with resources in the planned way. As NQ backed themselves in a corner by making the statements around wipes being an option only when really needed for technical reasons during beta they now either need to do one or more of the following:

  • Declare this a technical reason and wipe, restore ore deposits and balance the mechanic to slow extraction down.
  • Seriously nerf mining to create time for them to be able to complete existing plans and move in to expanding the universe
  • Push out planned features in order to speed up introducing new planets and resources

 

As I've said before, a wipe would be the best option to create the time and space needed for NQ to get to release with a reasonably complete game but they will need to do a wipe sooner rather than later and also would need to have a balance pass done and adjust the market bots (if not remove them) to remove the black hole players have been dumping resources in to make quick money. The longer NQ waits with this, the harder it will get to do so I'd say that if they were to go that route it needs to be done by the end of this year at the latest.

 

 

Given the choice between a wipe and a further delay to completion of the base game by the end of next year to well into 2022 I will take the wipe any day. There is simply not enough time for everything NQ still has to do to get to "release" and so something will need to give. Wipes are really a normal part of Alpha stage game development as well as Beta and really, excluding that tool was a mistake that may well end up costing NQ more than they thought they'd retain by pretty much removing the option from their toolbox.

 

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20 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

Literally all they had to do was make TCUs collect ore from the tiles you own and produce passive income.

 

That would have been the worst possible choice as it would have made big orgs just blanket claim tiles en mass and pretty much remove gameplay.

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18 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

Literally all they had to do was make TCUs collect ore from the tiles you own and produce passive income. This will make territory control crucial instead of a "hmmmm I guess I will cap some tiles to build a factory" afterthought.

As with everything, balance must be struck and I introducing a mechanism to "auto" mine works in offline titles but can be hazardous in a MMO that is running 24/7 unless there are some severe restrictions. I'm in favor of active, manual mining to stem the flow of resources but currently my first base is dead and now I'm in search of resources. Unless asteroids or moons are some source is introduced to  bring resources in the game, its first come first serve and new players are left with crumbs. You should have a way to "limp" home if your resources are gone, ships blown up you want a way to get back on your feet and not ever get stuck.

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1 minute ago, blazemonger said:

That would have been the worst possible choice as it would have made big orgs just blanket claim tiles en mass

Tiles have increasing cost based on how many TCUs you have on that planet/moon. It would also be minor income compared to straight up digging ore but it's the only alternative you have when there is absolutely nothing left to dig. Think 300L of tier 3, 150L of tier 4 and 75L of tier 5 ores respectively.

As for big orgs blanket claiming tiles, yes that is exactly what's going to happen. If you do nothing to stop an org's expansion, they will claim a huge chunk of a planet and it will become a no-go zone with all the implications you'd expect.

5 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

and pretty much remove gameplay.

Yes, just like 100k daily quanta removed trading. Look, I'm not going to argue economics because DU has yet to see proper markets but you'll just have to admit that without renewable resources the game is doomed to stagnation as more and more tier 4&5 ores are placed inside org vaults never to see the light of day until territory warfare begins which isn't happening before 2022 going by NQ's track record.

16 minutes ago, Avonthorn said:

You should have a way to "limp" home if your resources are gone, ships blown up you want a way to get back on your feet and not ever get stuck.

What is Sanctuary for 200

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What do you expect? Where as it requires ore, time, resources, a ship, and a static base to run a manufacturing line It only costs fuel and time to mine making mining a hugely imbalanced profession. Miners don't have to keep a static base, miners don't have any resources requires to mine (aside fuel), miners don't have any real effort to sell their goods.

 

Mining needs to have some sort of material cost beyond fuel. Some sort of overhead costs. 

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1 hour ago, dumpeet said:

What is Sanctuary for 200

To build upon my original thought is a new player scenario whom starts out on the moon building his base. Alioth resources are long gone and his 1 territory has a FIXED amount of T1 resources. It is possible that he makes mistakes, wastes resources over producing elements/constructs or creates ships and gets blown up repeatedly having to rebuild his ships or be moon locked. This eventually leaves him with no way to get back off the surface and back into space. Does he re-roll or ask for hand outs? The only thing renewable today is the 100k hand out which he would have to use that and buy ore. Is the fixed initial resources on the moon enough to get and stay in space forever? Doesnt seem like it as the game stands today, someone prove me wrong but there is a scenario where you get stuck!

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2 hours ago, dumpeet said:

Tiles have increasing cost based on how many TCUs you have on that planet/moon.

 

Org with 100 members can easily finance each member claim 3 tiles or more.. NQ made TU production so easy and cheap they might as well give them away and prices on the market have flatlined because of it. As it is you already find tiles claimed since the very early start of beta, no action taken, just  mass scanned and any tile with some valuable ore claimed so they are locked don just in case the org needs the ore sometime in the future and for the next 6-8 months (if not longer and no indefinitely inside the Alioth/Madis/Thades triangle safezone) there is nothing anyone can do about it.

NQ is making disruptive changes to the game design and layout but as they pretty denied themselves the option to balance by wiping, they are stuck with a locked down game where options are and will remain limited for PVP and gameplay around those early events now.

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49 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

If only you had the insight to notice the renewable tier 1&2 rocks on Alioth

Why do you assume I would have insight? I just started playing this week and I said previously that more senior players should tell me why if and how I was wrong.

 

Now getting to your post, T1 and T2 ores are renewable on Alioth. Is this surface ore or beneath the surface renewable? I assume it's only on the surface and 20L a rock? 

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My guess is that astroid mineing will be the big "out" for the alieoth starter system. Have a small roid field that regenerates T1-3 ore in the safe zone for noobies with t2 and 3 being progressivly more rare within it set to only give enough ore for at most a small M core ship in a reasonable time frame. Then have a belt in the outer system in the pvp area that spawns good amounts of ore.

 

Additonally linking a single ore reset to a STU or magic TCU to get them started helps ensure noobs can at least get off the planet. Can even include a blueprint for a basic space worthy craft that the tutorial can help them build with their ore reset.

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They could just work on numbers to balance things out, it's true that there's not enough raw ore, but it's also true that we extract and consume it too quickly.

It's probably late now but if you tweak the ore required to make components, reduce engine power and container capacity, all by a huge factor, let's say 1/10, 1/20, you are indirectly multiplying the ore by 10 or 20, without touching the nodes. Suddenly that meganode you just found could last you for weeks.

 

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21 hours ago, MaxTheGrey said:

Barely any high end resources and I've mined through at least 6 mega node empty caverns (and those are the ones I've randomly encountered). I kept going further and further to see if I'd get into an untapped area and just fell into another mega node cavern.

Are you sure the caverns were previously ore nodes, or just empty caverns to begin with?

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5 minutes ago, Haunty said:

Are you sure the caverns were previously ore nodes, or just empty caverns to begin with?

Caverns tend to have smoother slopes.  Ore nodes tend to be ful of little "cuboid' straight sides, assuming no player smoothing.

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The hell? Maybe mine something what is not meganode too? Maybe - just maybe one actually useful ore run out in safety zone - petalite was only available on two moons. But beside that? Everything as far as i know can be mined. Not necessary in you backyard. So move you backside to where ore is and stop bickering about something not beeing 5 meters away... 🤦‍♂️ 
 

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