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New server - way to reconcile PvP and no-PvP players


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after seeing fights between non PvPer and PvP about vision of this game future I can offer this step. It is simple A/B testing. 

I think it can solve all our problems. let's see. 

1st server - current one. 

1. simply follows current game rules with no changes. 

2. no wipe at all 

2nd server - a new one 

1. full PvP everywhere except base planet - small safe zone around Sanctuary 

2. Fresh start 

3. Atmosphere fights according space rules 

4. 3 months test 

 

I understand that this solution required money so a also offer to open crowdfunding to cover that 3 months test 

in conclusion this solution helps us to stop out fights. peaceful people can build houses on old server and we can go to a new one and fight. 

 

PS I personally can guarantee that I will buy 20 3-months subscriptions to this server for my Eve friends 

 

Edited by Catarix
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1 hour ago, CousinSal said:

Either pvp everywhere except Sanctuary like what was promised, or just remove it completely.  

 

Sanctuary moons were not promised. They are added later.

Only 10 km safe zone  around Arkship.

 

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DU is a game that has open world combat PVP, NQ has made more than reasonable compromises to allow those who do not want to encounter combat PVP.

If you want a game which is entirely combat PVP free, DU is not it and you should choose another game to play.

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56 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

DU is a game that has open world combat PVP, NQ has made more than reasonable compromises to allow those who do not want to encounter combat PVP.

If you want a game which is entirely combat PVP free, DU is not it and you should choose another game to play.

I clearly indicated that I want more PvP. I think total PvP server will be more successful and I force devs to check it. 

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15 minutes ago, Catarix said:

I clearly indicated that I want more PvP. I think total PvP server will be more successful and I force devs to check it. 

OK, in that case no, I would not expect that to happen. SImple fact isthat the majority of the playerbase was, is and will be not too interested in or averse to combat PVP. And a lot of these people will effectively accomodate you to go and engage in it.

A server which has no safezones and no options for people not interested in combat PVP will ba far more expensive to run and there is several videos on YT which research this to the point where it is clear that PVP only servers are showing much lower retention numbers and generally tend to bleed to death once they get "visited" by gankers who just go around and destroy whateever for no reaosn but that they can. And many actually good games have pretty much died for that very reason, RUST being a good example.

 

DU is very clearly not a game which has PVP at its core, it  is not designed to revolve around it. 

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15 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

OK, in that case no, I would not expect that to happen. SImple fact isthat the majority of the playerbase was, is and will be not too interested in or averse to combat PVP. And a lot of these people will effectively accomodate you to go and engage in it.

A server which has no safezones and no options for people not interested in combat PVP will ba far more expensive to run and there is several videos on YT which research this to the point where it is clear that PVP only servers are showing much lower retention numbers and generally tend to bleed to death once they get "visited" by gankers who just go around and destroy whateever for no reaosn but that they can. And many actually good games have pretty much died for that very reason, RUST being a good example.

 

DU is very clearly not a game which has PVP at its core, it  is not designed to revolve around it. 

Rust is currently the 8th most played game on Steam...

 

Why do the PvP-adverse crowd always try to gaslight people into believing the PvP community is small and niche?

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24 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

And many actually good games have pretty much died for that very reason, RUST being a good example.

Are you kidding? 

PvP games are most played games. 

image.png.c6ab1b52df05bc5c7ede87c0b6c161c4.png

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DU is not a PVP game

None of the games in that list are sandbox MMO games

All those games are much smaller in scope/scale and less complex in what they aim to achieve

As far as I know none use voxel technoclogy the way DU does

 

 

Your top 10 accounts for less than 2 percent of the number of players on Steam ..

You are missing the point, even when I thank you for proving it

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36 minutes ago, Nayropux said:

Rust is currently the 8th most played game on Steam...

RUST is a co-op/multiplayer game which si great but fairly limited in scale and like ARK and ATLAS survives thanks to dedicated serves

 

 

36 minutes ago, Nayropux said:

Why do the PvP-adverse crowd always try to gaslight people into believing the PvP community is small and niche?

Never said that. I said that if you try and make game LIKE DU PVP only, you wil lend up with a dead game.

The list that was posted here, most are co-op, limited multiplayer or single player games on a realtively small scale with no really purpose but to shoot at people and that is why they work (well). 

 

And several on the list survive and get the numbers they do becaued of promootions (ARK is currently free) and becausde they run on dedicated servers

 

Why do some PVP focussed player always feel the need to turn _every_ game they touch into a shooter, even when it's very clearly not and never will be.

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44 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

DU is not a PVP game

None of the games in that list are sandbox MMO games

All those games are much smaller in scope/scale and less complex in what they aim to achieve

As far as I know none use voxel technoclogy the way DU does

 

 

Your top 10 accounts for less than 2 percent of the number of players on Steam ..

You are missing the point, even when I thank you for proving it

You said PvP is not popular genre. you use RUST as example. I showed that you are wrong. If DU will be as 'dead' as RUST it will be huge success. 
Anyway. my solution (PvP server) is not against your playstyle. Why do you bother if we (PvPer) find money and receive our server to play (at least  to check)? 

you still can play as you want on current server. 

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Not really a viable solution, though -- it isn't like it's easy to spin out a separate stack, alter the rules for one server only, create the UI to allow people to select a server, etc. 

 

The work to "turn on Atmosphere fights according space rules" could take a very long time by itself. If it seems like it ought to be simple, it probably isn't...especially for a software stack that's 6+ years old. 

 

Further, this would have a huge impact on cost. Not just with spinning up a separate batch of hardware, but with how the game scales.

 

They made alien cores and asteroids work the way they do for a good reason -- DU has never handled combat in a performant way and more PvP more places with more players could make the game unsustainable, especially with today's level of optimization. 

 

Even if players did flock to these PvP servers...would it mechanically work? Could it scale gracefully? I'm not optimistic it would. There's been so many changes even to the vanilla game focused on infra cost...even the game as it is today probably won't scale! And that's with very limited instances of PvP or player interact in general.

 

Spending months to create a "trial" doesn't really make sense, and yes it would take NQ months to make this a reality. They wrote this game with the presumption of single-shard and introducing server-specific mechanics wouldn't be a quick thing. 

 

It's just too late for them to even consider going down this road. 

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10 hours ago, blazemonger said:

DU is a game that has open world combat PVP, NQ has made more than reasonable compromises to allow those who do not want to encounter combat PVP.

If you want a game which is entirely combat PVP free, DU is not it and you should choose another game to play.

 

And if you do any type of real research, having a full or mostly full PvP game, thus limiting players from exploring other systems without being subjected to the standard PvP-Centric try hards, then you will have seen that those games do not last very long, and the population becomes diluted very fast. Once that happens, all you see are PvP players complaining all the time about not having enough people to gank, erm, fight/kill. 

 

There are plenty of ways to provide meaningful PvP, but to force others into it is the certain way to flatline any MMO. 

 

Regarding what the OP stated, they must be new to how these type of MMO games work, as you cannot maintain 2 different types of servers with the small team NQ has and expect them both to get quality content updates based on PvE or PvP. Their vision is straight forward in terms of  a single shard server shared by all. That said, unless they make major changes to their core game play and get things locked in, they will have a very small population at full release. Time will see which way the devs go.

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8 hours ago, Catarix said:

You said PvP is not popular genre.

No I did not. You clearly issed the point of my response which is that DU is not a PVP game in the vein of the ones in the list you posted and trying to make it one is  a waste of resources as it discards a massive part of the game.

 

 

8 hours ago, Catarix said:

you use RUST as example. I showed that you are wrong.

Acvtually, you proved my point by posting your list. And here again, you missed the point I made about RUST. 

 

RUST is a great game with a lot of good stuff besides the PVP. Due to the massive levels of ganking and "aggression for no reason whatsoever", the game nearly dies though and was saved only because it has dedicated servers which allow those who want to actually enjoy the game, not just go around shooting.. whatever, to do so. 

 

DU is not a game which can be run in a dedicated server environment, the infrastructure needed to run DU at he cale it needs to be viable as it is designed to be is very costly unlike RUST , for which you can run a server on your average home PC with no problem. "just add a PVP only server" for a limited group of players woudl mean that said group woudl need to be willing to pay a hefty surplus to gain access and that's not going to happen.

 

 

8 hours ago, Catarix said:

Anyway. my solution (PvP server) is not against your playstyle. Why do you bother if we (PvPer) find money and receive our server to play (at least  to check)? 

you still can play as you want on current server. 

Again, DU is not a PVP game, if you eliminate everything non PVP from it, you are left with nothing as you will need al lthat to get to the PVP part.

 

Also, it's clear you have no idea about what it takles to run a server infractructure for a game like DU as if you did, you'd understand your idea is not a viable one. 

 

 

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Catarix, I respectfully disagree, I think splitting the population between two servers would be Death for Dual Universe. I saw another company try to do this and the game died within 6 months. The game "Xsyon" actually had many of the same development problems/patterns of Dual Universe. Seeing so many development Red Flags is very concerning for me.

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4 minutes ago, Rokkur said:

Catarix, I respectfully disagree, I think splitting the population between two servers would be Death for Dual Universe. I saw another company try to do this and the game died within 6 months. The game "Xsyon" actually had many of the same development problems/patterns of Dual Universe. Seeing so many development Red Flags is very concerning for me.

current situation is terrible and getting worse every week. I am seeing in real time as people stop taking about the game and losing interest to it. Not to mention that no one is playing DU now (I am talking about our corporations and community discord server)

my idea is not to split the population but prove that this game need change of course. because DU now really is early alfa I think devs can experimenting. 

In our community a main idea about communication with NQ is following 'we already have said what we want, we tired of repeating'  

I respect your positive feedback here and other posts because generally this community behave itself like 'DU euthanization team'

they attack all ideas and feedbacks with words like 'you don't understand/it is not going to happen/everything is ok/etc/etc' 

Ignoring of problems is not positive way of thinking. 

 

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8 hours ago, Catarix said:

 

I respect your positive feedback here and other posts...

 


Oh snap! I am giggling a bit, cause I have pointedly accused of being just a troll, with nothing constructive to say because of my communication format by NQ.

I want to see this game succeed, I want to see everyone win, and we simply cannot do this by burying our head in the sand. We have to talk realistically about communication failures and the damage to community morale and expectation management, just as much as we have to restore lost dynamics that really super charged or love for DU.

Just cause you don't like what someone says or how they say it doesn't make them your enemy. I do think if you ignore someone, make them feel unvalued, or treat them like an advesary then you will definitely create enemies or just lose those community members.

One of the reasons I jokingly say that forums are the ultimate PVP now. Though and super unfortunately it feels more like CvNQ (community vs. NQ)

Edited by Rokkur
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40 minutes ago, Rokkur said:

Just cause you don't like what someone says or how they say it doesn't make them your enemy. 

 

It does if what they say cuts a little close to home, and the truth, for comfort, while you are being tasked to try and spin the general opinion and discussion in a different direction.

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I cant help but think a lot (not all ) of DU's problems have to do with poor communication.  This is probably a lot to do with inexperience in creating a game.  It would be great if they took some time (or had taken some time) and look at how other companies communicate with their players.  

 

Take Camelot Unchained as an example.  This company is probably one of the most open and communicative game developers i have seen.  Every week the put out a pod cast that goes over the top 10 things the group worked on that week.  Sometime the list is 15 items and sometimes it is only 5 but they still call it the top 10.   They often rotate who is on the cast, having the developer one week, then game designer the next, graphic team, programmer, etc.  They then open up for questions, so the players can directly communicate with each department asking about why they did something or what the plans are for the future.  They do not select only the questions they want to answer, but try to answer all the questions they can in the time allowed.   All of this information is then put in a newsletter and sent to all the players.  The players may not always agree with the decisions being made, but they know exactly why it was made and how those decisions will affect things in the future.  If you read the Forum pages for Camelot Unchained they are 90% positive, because the gamer feels like they are a part of the CU team/family.

 

Du is exactly opposite.  They try to keep everything as secrete as possible, only giving basic overall game ideas.  Usually the only communication we get is when a patch is ready.  They do let us then discus the patch among ourselves but because they have never gone into detail how exactly they envision the final game to work, we are left confused as to why they did what they did in the patch. Then telling us they 'Heard Us' , but never taking the time to tell us exactly what they heard and how this has affected the overall game design.   This leads to the gamers feeling isolated and confused, and unheard.  Treating the players like an unwanted step-child has lead to 90% of the forums being negative.

 

I would love Du to be successful, but they really need to take a few minutes to see where other gaming companies have succeeded or failed.  Then make the needed changes, because it feels like they are just winging it and failing. 

 

 

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Its funny that you want the PvPers to be wiped OP. In my case I doubt the ones that are not active will return to start fresh again. I would not.

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On 6/18/2022 at 8:25 AM, Catarix said:

I respect your positive feedback here and other posts because generally this community behave itself like 'DU euthanization team'

they attack all ideas and feedbacks with words like 'you don't understand/it is not going to happen/everything is ok/etc/etc' 

Ignoring of problems is not positive way of thinking. 

It's not up to us players, whether PvE or PvP or a big motley mix of PvE-PvP players.
It's up to NQ and understanding what kind of game they want to create or wanted to create and now want. What the finished product should be at release and what it will be in 10years. 
Currently it seems to be more of an alpha status. Main content is being taken out and replaced. Other content is still on "maybe", no idea when and if it will come.
I'm playing less and less since a few days, because it just frustrates me. Not only the game, but also the way NQ talks and thinks about the game itself. There seems to be a difference in the game, what those in the "this is what we want to do" and the game that really currently exists and what is yet to come.
At the same time, NQ is dealing with content that no one wanted instead of content that players have wanted for years.
Actually, they should urgently revise the website about DualUniverse and make it more towards actual game content, rather than vainly enabling dreams to players that just aren't in the game at all. 

 

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12 hours ago, Zarcata said:

It's not up to us players, whether PvE or PvP or a big motley mix of PvE-PvP players.
It's up to NQ and understanding what kind of game they want to create or wanted to create and now want. What the finished product should be at release and what it will be in 10years. 
Currently it seems to be more of an alpha status. Main content is being taken out and replaced. Other content is still on "maybe", no idea when and if it will come.
I'm playing less and less since a few days, because it just frustrates me. Not only the game, but also the way NQ talks and thinks about the game itself. There seems to be a difference in the game, what those in the "this is what we want to do" and the game that really currently exists and what is yet to come.
At the same time, NQ is dealing with content that no one wanted instead of content that players have wanted for years.
Actually, they should urgently revise the website about DualUniverse and make it more towards actual game content, rather than vainly enabling dreams to players that just aren't in the game at all. 

 

maybe. I bought DU exactly because of 'Player driven game' slogan. It expected to have the same freedom as 'you know what game'

so I wish this game my best and I will check it next year. 

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17 hours ago, Zarcata said:

It's up to NQ and understanding what kind of game they want to create or wanted to create and now want. What the finished product should be at release and what it will be in 10years.

 

NQ has yet to understand these simple truths:

 

If you try and please everyone, you will please noone.

When you create according to what you like/want, you will be surprised by how many share that vision.

 

 

NQ needs to top trying to make DU work for everyone, they should start building a game they want to buiild and I am sure they will find many more who agree with them than they do now.

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