Avatar vs. Avatar combat

[aliensalmon]

Yes, it's probably been mentioned many times before but I'd like to see avatar combat in the game soon. Could make for some thrilling game experiences.

 

I know there's other games that fulfill that function but I think it would be cool in an open-space game like Dual Universe.

[Sybily]

They keep pushing it back.  They originally said they would do it before CVC but im guess the 2 second latency between clients is making it very difficult for AVA.

[Lethys]

Some have been saying this for years to no avail. 

 

Gl this time

[CptLoRes]

7 hours ago, aliensalmon said:

Yes, it's probably been mentioned many times before but I'd like to see avatar combat in the game soon. Could make for some thrilling game experiences.

 

Judging by the game performance in general I would suspect more frustration then thrill.

I.e. even ignoring the slow pace of NQ development, there are several fundamental performance issues that must be solved first.

 

And there are many other PvP features that would require less dev time then AvA, like forexample atmos CvC since it would be adding on existing functionality.

So I bet AvA is way down on the TO-DO list.

[SirJohn85]

I agree with the previous speakers.

 

Good luck. According to Kickstarter, the feature should have been available for release, but it won't be. That's one of the reasons why people have funded the project, including myself. Instead, stretch goals was given preference. 

 

I'll leave you with my meme gallery that I made in December 2019 about AvA:

https://imgur.com/a/uVOYJT0

[Haunty]

AvA was originally planned for Alpha 3, but the last roadmap where AvA appeared was for post-release, though I don't think they should release without at least a first iteration of AvA.

 

NQ probably shouldn't have had any stretch goals (or physical rewards) in hindsight.

[Guest]

I hope AvA will be added on release as it was written on the Kickstarter.

[BlindingBright]

With the wall-jumping / physics in game... if FPS was solid enough and they could handle the networking for FPS combat... I dare say... it could be a lot of fun!

[RugesV]

Avatar vs Avatar combat is very important.  However we are never going to see it at a FPS level.  Networking just wont allow it.  

 

Its one of the things that make DU ship combat so interesting.  While some look at it as a horribly boring select and shoot system. The reality is it works very good for players with differing pings.  IE it does not matter that player A has a 3 second ping to player B.  And if DU combat was like a traditional FPS. a 3 second ping would just not work. The player would have closed his door and ran down the hallway before the game tells him he was shot and killed. 

 

To which you might ask. but other games have it, why not this game. Most games are region based. Not because they are trying to segregate us, but because networking would result in un-enjoyable gameplay.  And then you might say, but that other SB game has avatar vs avatar worldwide.  That because that game is peer to peer. IE they are not truely playing a server. instead they are playing on theirs or a nearby players machine. Which does make it easier for a true FPS experience. However it makes it way worse for large battles. Or things like the giant ship expo's that DU gets. Or major cities like freeport. 

 

Does that mean that avatar vs avatar is doomed for DU?  I dont think so.  I think we can see the same sort of combat that we currently see in DU. Where Player A targets Player B with a weapon or a mech and the weapon shoots automatically.  The biggest obstacle NQ has to solve is handling how to handle objects in between.  IE a player behind a wall. or inside a cave,  Which NQ has not even solved for ship combat yet. 

[Caerus]

Maybe they can start with PVE. Would be cool to battle sand worms for spice.

[Daphne Jones]

Maybe they should implement it with a requirement that all the avatars in the combat area (i.e., the immediate area around the combat, not a defined unsafe zone) be on the same server. Then at least the networking desync wouldn't be such a problem. This would limit the size of the armies in a battle, but better than nothing.

[RugesV]

5 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Maybe they should implement it with a requirement that all the avatars in the combat area (i.e., the immediate area around the combat, not a defined unsafe zone) be on the same server. Then at least the networking desync wouldn't be such a problem. This would limit the size of the armies in a battle, but better than nothing.

I think that gets rid of DU's strongest feature. DU's Single shard tech is what sets it above any other space game out there. You take that away and all the follies that are in DU make it a real subpar game.  Its also why I am playing DU instead of those other games. I think DU can fix its follies.  Those other games wont be able to  get past those  tech limits.  

[CptLoRes]

Single shard would be great if it worked.. But when some construct flying past you is glitching out with a position update once every second if you are lucky, it is clear that they are struggling.

[Context]

Well the hardware technology exists but it will be expensive and I think NQ will be caught between the trap of keeping players and how much they will charge us, how much the better servers will cost and how much the people banking this game are going to want in profits to refill their wallets. If AvA is in fact more difficult as some are saying, I wouldn't know, then it will definitely be one of the later things introduced because the devs also have to make the big pocket boys happy.

[XKentX]

never gonna happen in this engine unless it's lock&shoot.

 

Lock & Shoot AvA yay \o/

[CptLoRes]

It was always going to be tab-targeting based, and even then it is going to struggle with performance.

https://dualuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Combat

 

And confirmation that NQ has placed AvA low on the priority list.

https://dualuniverse.featureupvote.com/suggestions/123801/avatar-vs-avatar-pvp

 

[Feriniya]

Guys, what are you all wondering about, NQ has long officially replied that AVA PVP will be released or in the first half of the year AFTER the release. And yes .. I completely agree with the above, given the current state of affairs with optimization and load on hardware, ping and other aspects, it will not work to achieve a normal FPS shooting, it will rather be implemented in view of target acquisition as we have now in space. The issue of the coliseum and the walls has not yet been resolved either.
 

But what to guess when officially everything has been said for a long time already .. Here you are fans of the same thing around and say how bad everything is.

[Moosegun]

I actually think that AvA might not be as tricky as people think.  Yes there is a dysnc issue with faster moving objects such as ships, which is going to make Atmos pvp very tricky (without using the word instanced) but there is actually very little issue with player sync.  I cant remember the last time I didnt see a player where they should be.  There would need to be some obvious changes / restrictions though

 

• Player speed would have to be massively nerfed when in AvA, both for performance and the fact it is far too fast
• Projectile would be tough, mainly due to server load i suspect, as hit reg / collision for projectiles is a more high end solution
• Tab targeted with some sort of line of sight could well be viable and could be made to feel pretty adequate / entertaining
• Like everything in DU it has to fit into the game limitations, that does mean it cannot be fun
   

For me the biggest issue as always is exploitation, for example, just relogging and deleting cache would allow you to waltz into someones base.

Again I think the solution might be a certain level of instancing, for example, if you draw a weapon in a tile it triggers a confirmation dialogue and then the tile and player becomes flagged (which has some conditions). Anyone else drawing a weapons is also flagged.  All other players can move as they want but flagged players have certain restrictions for example.

 

• Reduced sprint speed
• No sprint when weapon draw
• Anyone flagged that respawns in pvp tile is held in position on spawn until the game has loaded (could have shield but I wouldnt)
• Respawn conditions

 

With the current game state (which is NOWHERE NEAR as bad a some players on this forum make out) and some restrictions I think it is actually viable now, the biggest issue is the level of development time it would take and the other priorities.  Personally i would put territory warfare of some sort, energy, salvaging and even player markets above it in my list.  So that is actually the biggest blocker.

My short term solution, that i think would be incredibly good fun - ALLOW XS GUNS TO TARGET PLAYERS!!!!

[Daphne Jones]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:42 PM, RugesV said:

I think that gets rid of DU's strongest feature. DU's Single shard tech is what sets it above any other space game out there. You take that away and all the follies that are in DU make it a real subpar game.  Its also why I am playing DU instead of those other games. I think DU can fix its follies.  Those other games wont be able to  get past those  tech limits.  

DU has desync baked into it's single shard tech. Consequently it will never have FPS combat. Other games with less ambitious server meshing (looking at Star Citizen to start with) will have much more satisfying AvA combat. (Admittedly, SC's server meshing will cost more than DU's life time budget.)

[RugesV]

3 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

DU has desync baked into it's single shard tech. Consequently it will never have FPS combat. Other games with less ambitious server meshing (looking at Star Citizen to start with) will have much more satisfying AvA combat. (Admittedly, SC's server meshing will cost more than DU's life time budget.)

A Twitch based FPS wont work. but a lock based FPS would.  Much like the way Space combat currently works.  IE you get in range of the target. and you lock them.  When the hit chance gets to an acceptable level you fire. Possibly even only having it auto fire when the chance is above a certain percent. 

[Guest]

 

[Daphne Jones]

2 hours ago, RugesV said:

A Twitch based FPS wont work. but a lock based FPS would.  Much like the way Space combat currently works.  IE you get in range of the target. and you lock them.  When the hit chance gets to an acceptable level you fire. Possibly even only having it auto fire when the chance is above a certain percent. 

Sure, but I don't call that FPS. If you're not aiming the weapon, it's not FPS.

[RugesV]

6 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:

Sure, but I don't call that FPS. If you're not aiming the weapon, it's not FPS.

You know I was wondering what the term would be. And what other games might set a precedence for this.  And what I decided is its, still a First Person Shooter. Because your still in first person and your shooting.   I figured the better classification would be lock based FPS vs Twitch based FPS. 

 

And personally I would consider that less of a bastardization then how they call DU a MMORPG. 

[4ntw3rp]

I hope they keep FPS out of this game. There are other games for that. This game should be about creativity, space exploration, (future) real life simulation. Would it be interesting? Yes, for some. Is it necessary? No, I think not

[RugesV]

On 9/10/2021 at 7:30 AM, 4ntw3rp said:

I hope they keep FPS out of this game. There are other games for that. This game should be about creativity, space exploration, (future) real life simulation. Would it be interesting? Yes, for some. Is it necessary? No, I think not

That only limits your playerbase.  While FPS should never be required. It should also never be totally excluded.  Do you think eve would have succeeded if it only had the carebear side of space? Or if it only had the PVP side of space. It takes both sides to make a game like eve. Just like it will take multiple sides to make a game like DU successful.