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Some stunning arrogance in this thread.

 

Unless the game gets some sensible balance of things to do for all parties it will not last. No reason for it to do so.

 

Forcing people to PvP will not happen. EVE tried this for years and it never happened. People will PvP when they want, where they want and how they want. If they can't do that they will play something else. The rule has always been "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" - so until PvE players feel they are in that position to their satisfaction none of them will PvP even for rare rewards. As PvE players are generally more risk averse with respect to combat the "not afford to lose" amount will likely be significantly higher than PvP players.

 

The PvP vs PvE thing is as it has always been and is unlikely to change. The one thing I have never understood is why PvP players are just not content with fighting each other and leaving those who don't give a crap alone.

 

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10 minutes ago, Cheith said:

Some stunning arrogance in this thread.

 

Unless the game gets some sensible balance of things to do for all parties it will not last. No reason for it to do so.

 

Forcing people to PvP will not happen. EVE tried this for years and it never happened. People will PvP when they want, where they want and how they want. If they can't do that they will play something else. The rule has always been "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" - so until PvE players feel they are in that position to their satisfaction none of them will PvP even for rare rewards. As PvE players are generally more risk averse with respect to combat the "not afford to lose" amount will likely be significantly higher than PvP players.

 

The PvP vs PvE thing is as it has always been and is unlikely to change. The one thing I have never understood is why PvP players are just not content with fighting each other and leaving those who don't give a crap alone.

 

Agreed 100%

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1 hour ago, shadowfyre2 said:

Ffa pvp without rules can't do this

Rules are not the way to do it. 

Everyone appreciates the freedom, even victims. 

 

I think the solution is to grow the game on pvp alternatives. 

To be able to refill victim's spirit before they become victims again. 

 

To me NPCs are a most. 

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16 hours ago, shadowfyre2 said:

 I don't enjoy being forced into pvp all the time and the drop in subscribers seems to support my assessment. Pvp game don't survive long in the gaming industry without limitations on pvp so griefers don't ruin the fun and drive away clients. I'm not saying pvp should be taken out. But it does need limits or the game community will not grow. You can't force people to play.

 

 

I agree with a lot of this, in theory.  I've been arguing it in these forums for years.  But it has usually been in arguments with PVP players, who wanted the safe zones removed completely, or made smaller, or whatever other silly argument they might have had for wanting to be able to shoot at people who don't want to be shot at.

 

We already won this argument.

 

You can do almost anything without risking PVP.  You just can't do it as fast, or make as much money doing it.  The safe zone is huge.  You can warp between planets without ever putting yourself at risk.  You can make huge amounts of Quanta mining and running missions.  The only thing you can't do right now is mine Asteroids outside the safe zone.  Because that system was added specifically to incentivize people to risk PVP.

 

I play the game almost every day.  I do zero PVP.  I mostly build stuff, i mine a bit, i run a few missions.  I even run missions outside the safe zone, and i haven't seen a pirate yet.  Not that they aren't out there, but i'm careful.  And i can make up the cost of my ship in one mission so if i do get caught it won't be the end of the world.

 

I guess i'm wondering what it is you are picturing when you talk about the "fun" that's missing.  What activity specifically do you want do do, that you can't do?

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8 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

I guess i'm wondering what it is you are picturing when you talk about the "fun" that's missing.  What activity specifically do you want do do, that you can't do?

Asteroids were ment for making mining more fun. They lock t3 - t5 Asteroids in pvp zone so we can fight over resources(their words) this isn't fun for me. And the pvpers on here are telling me to just stay in the safe zone. So basically I can't explore. I can't gather higher level resources. I can't play the game as a lone wolf explorer. And if I want to build or run an industry with higher level materials,  I have to hope they are for sale like a red headed stepchild. Not fun. Some have said I should wait until the pirates aren't play or stick to cheap ships. Which locks me out of the socializing during peak hours or building a heavy hauler. Not fun. I won't play a game I don't find fun.

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12 minutes ago, shadowfyre2 said:

Asteroids were ment for making mining more fun.

 

Asteroids were meant to incentivize people to risk PVP.  The Asteroids literally broadcast your location to every PVPer in the game after you land on them.

 

18 minutes ago, shadowfyre2 said:

So basically I can't explore. I can't gather higher level resources. I can't play the game as a lone wolf explorer. And if I want to build or run an industry with higher level materials,  I have to hope they are for sale like a red headed stepchild

 

You can explore, just don't fly straight down the pipe.  And make sure there aren't any pirates hiding on your ship when you take off. Or Warp and there's zero risk.  You can still mine any tier resources you want, just not on an asteroid.  If you want to buy the schematics you can craft anything you want.  If you don't, you can buy it.

 

For "Risk vs. Reward" to work, the reward for the risk, has to be bigger then the reward for not taking the risk.

 

If what you want is "the reward", without taking the risk, you can't have that.  You can still have all the stuff, you just can't have it as fast as someone willing to take the risk.

 

If that's a deal breaker for you, then this is definitely not the game for you.

 

 

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If I can't mine t5 ore, regardless if I need it or not, because the pirates are using the Asteroid for bait to ambush players, that's locking players who don't find it fun out of the game. To be able to destroy my ship in 1 shot to the point it won't even show up in the map to try to fix and recover the pieces is beyond reasonable.  To tell me I can't work for months designing a heavy haul and take it out into the Asteroid belt without ruining all that time and effort,  that's not a game I find fun. There has to be a balance between pvpers and nonpvpers in the mmo industry to have a viable game. You want me to not be able to participate in the higher end games, I will move onto another game...which I've already started looking into. Enough gamers get sick and tired of the pkers within your pvp community,  the game won't make money and you won't have a game at all. There is a reason ffa pvp mmogs don't survive long term. There isn't a market for them. They aren't financially viable. They don't make enough money to keep the servers on. I'm not asking to take away risk vs reward or pvp. I am saying there has to be limits to pvp in order to appeal to a larger gaming audience. However so be it. I will move on. 

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20 minutes ago, shadowfyre2 said:

If I can't mine t5 ore, regardless if I need it or not, because the pirates are using the Asteroid for bait to ambush players, that's locking players who don't find it fun out of the game.

 

The asteroids are supposed to be bait.  If you don't want to get caught stop trying to eat the bait lol

 

You're not locked out of anything, except that one little thing.  You said you're not asking them to take away risk vs reward, but then you keep demanding the reward, without the risk.

 

If you can have all the rewards without any risk, then everyone else can too.  That breaks the game.

 

You will always be able to mine t1-t3 ore, and run missions, 100% risk free, all day.  And buy literally anything you need.

 

You're not locked out of anything except eating that delicious bait.  That's kind of how bait works.  You're supposed to want it.

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6 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

The asteroids are supposed to be bait.  If you don't want to get caught stop trying to eat the bait lol

 

You're not locked out of anything, except that one little thing.  You said you're not asking them to take away risk vs reward, but then you keep demanding the reward, without the risk.

 

If you can have all the rewards without any risk, then everyone else can too.  That breaks the game.

 

You will always be able to mine t1-t3 ore, and run missions, 100% risk free, all day.  And buy literally anything you need.

 

You're not locked out of anything except eating that delicious bait.  That's kind of how bait works.  You're supposed to want it.

 

I kind of agree - or at least I will once they fix planetary mining properly - not been on for a while but it had slowly become unplayable (used to be glitchy but steadily got worse). Asteroids where supposed to also be a step in that direction but it appears that was botched somewhat. The real question is what will happen to the planets themselves moving forward. I suspect the T4 and T5 ore planets will also stop being safe zones, but we will see on that.

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Same here. I don't understand why they want to do a pvp centric game. Don't they know about player profils  in MMOs ?

 

What is the target audience of DU ?

 

Is the plan just to build an EVE clone with Space Engineers elements ? I don't see any success going this route.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Cheith said:

 

I kind of agree - or at least I will once they fix planetary mining properly - not been on for a while but it had slowly become unplayable (used to be glitchy but steadily got worse). Asteroids where supposed to also be a step in that direction but it appears that was botched somewhat. The real question is what will happen to the planets themselves moving forward. I suspect the T4 and T5 ore planets will also stop being safe zones, but we will see on that.

 

 

I don't think they botched asteroids.  I think the idea just got borrowed and used to solve another problem.  The game really needed a reason for people to go out and take risks.  And this seems like a good solution to me.

 

It didn't need to be asteroids, maybe they should have called them comets, or alien artifacts, or something like that instead.

 

I do hope they add asteroid belts eventually too.  Not like these randomly generated asteroids, just huge permanent fields of asteroids, full of ore.  Big enough that even if they're in PVP space you would have a chance of doing some mining without anyone finding you.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Kirth Gersen said:

 

Is the plan just to build an EVE clone with Space Engineers elements ? I don't see any success going this route.

Even eve online realized ffa pvp isn't sustainable and imposed limits

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52 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

 

I don't think they botched asteroids.  I think the idea just got borrowed and used to solve another problem.  The game really needed a reason for people to go out and take risks.  And this seems like a good solution to me.

 

It didn't need to be asteroids, maybe they should have called them comets, or alien artifacts, or something like that instead.

 

I do hope they add asteroid belts eventually too.  Not like these randomly generated asteroids, just huge permanent fields of asteroids, full of ore.  Big enough that even if they're in PVP space you would have a chance of doing some mining without anyone finding you.

 

 

Yes, but, as has been pointed out the risk vs reward is way over on the risk side. Too easy to find asteroids being mined. PvPers get all the reward, miners take all the risks. Now that's balance for you.

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The fundamental issue that a lot are missing is the combat in this game sucks. It is shallow and boring.  And the addition of asteroids kept that tradition alive with the hunt for asteroids being boring and needlessly time consuming.  Now there is another game out there for us to compare to and there is no comparison.  It is actually shocking considering DU has been in Beta for a year.  The added nail, I don't have to bleed a monthly sub to be bored while the dev figures out what they want to make.

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16 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

 

The asteroids are supposed to be bait.

I got the impression that asteroid where supposed to make mining fun.

 

Problem as I see it is that with DSAT pricing and position broadcast, it is so heavily tilted in favor of PvP that the risk-fun aspect is mostly not there for non PvP players.

 

I have nothing against taking some calculated risk to gain some reward. But when all the cards are stacked against you, it become more of a desperate gamble then anything else.

 

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

I got the impression that asteroid where supposed to make mining fun.

I agree with with them about being bait. 

The problem is that this is the only new content added to the game since beta started so every one expected to be able to visit it. 

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Really confused, I have been mining high tier ore since roids came out..... because it is still in the ground.  Nothing is gated by pvp at all, and the game is VERY easy to make money in without pvp.  You can pick up elements at D6 move them 100km and sell them at twice the price. 

We havent even bothered with roids yet, no need to do them at the moment.

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3 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Follow up, you could complain of the forums, or you could be Megabosslord, showing how we DU it.

 

 

I bet NQ had a heart attack knowing that many constructs are now going to be added.

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5 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Follow up, you could complain of the forums, or you could be Megabosslord, showing how we DU it.

 

LOL, I live it !

great idea and beautiful work !

 

I've seen this yellow Submarine on Reddit and I loved it - gonna buy one :)

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On 8/15/2021 at 1:20 PM, joaocordeiro said:

 

Allowing non PVPers to play the game is not PvE-centric. 

 

Most Empyrion servers are PvE-centric. You actually have to go to a specific star to do pvp. And that star has no resources. 

 

Thats not what I want for DU. 

I want PvE players to have a harder life than PvP players. If a PvP player can make 1M quanta in 10 hours, a PvE player should need 50 hours. 

But the PvE player should be able to play the game. 

 

The idea that saying "this is not a PvE game, so screw you" is ok, is just wrong. 

This game cannot survive with only Alpha males. Someone needs to stay reasonably happy with a K/D of 0.2.

I think this idea is the problem. The game is grindy, complicated and partly tedious. You want someone to grind 50hours and want an easy 10 hour grab. That doesn't seem balanced and will lead to the extinction of zebras. So it depends if the game aims to be hardcore PvP mainly that might be a way to go. Like legion did, every hc PvP can celebrate his victory (with the remaining few hundred on a vastly empty "metaverse", due to skills/time they will be like god's ruling the game, at the same time discouraging new players even pvpers) . Secondly the game just isn't fast paced enough to support casual players the way PvP is. Imagine how many players would play rust, if you needed a 2 week grind to drop a base and get basic gear but then be raided in a 5min raid overnight. So I think finding a proper middle ground (each group has to acknowledge and respect the other groups and their needs) might bring a balance and a longterm chance of survival for the game. If the community stays so split, with extreme interestgroups it will stay in limbo. Also I don't see how PvP would bring the broken economy to life

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31 minutes ago, DrDerp said:

I think this idea is the problem. The game is grindy, complicated and partly tedious. You want someone to grind 50hours and want an easy 10 hour grab. That doesn't seem balanced and will lead to the extinction of zebras. So it depends if the game aims to be hardcore PvP mainly that might be a way to go. Like legion did, every hc PvP can celebrate his victory (with the remaining few hundred on a vastly empty "metaverse", due to skills/time they will be like god's ruling the game, at the same time discouraging new players even pvpers) . Secondly the game just isn't fast paced enough to support casual players the way PvP is. Imagine how many players would play rust, if you needed a 2 week grind to drop a base and get basic gear but then be raided in a 5min raid overnight. So I think finding a proper middle ground (each group has to acknowledge and respect the other groups and their needs) might bring a balance and a longterm chance of survival for the game. If the community stays so split, with extreme interestgroups it will stay in limbo. Also I don't see how PvP would bring the broken economy to life

Why making the live of an PVE Player harder? Why is a pvp player better than an pve player?

Both want to play the game and have fun. The pvp player have all the fun and the pve player a the losers.

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apparently the 6 pillars of due of which PVP was only one are forgotten. But why not, just make DU 100% PVP and kill the other 5 pillars, lets indeed make PvE life 50 times harder and killing a pve player should give an attack bonus. Please introduce all this.

As there are to many players that generate lag this solution would really help as only the pvp players would remain and all others would go play starbase, empyrion, space engeneers, minecraft, or whatever TF they want to play. These discussions only cost energy and are not going anywhere and are there just to troll and frustrate non-pvp players. dont take the bite...

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2 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

apparently the 6 pillars of due of which PVP was only one are forgotten. But why not, just make DU 100% PVP and kill the other 5 pillars, lets indeed make PvE life 50 times harder and killing a pve player should give an attack bonus. Please introduce all this.

As there are to many players that generate lag this solution would really help as only the pvp players would remain and all others would go play starbase, empyrion, space engeneers, minecraft, or whatever TF they want to play. These discussions only cost energy and are not going anywhere and are there just to troll and frustrate non-pvp players. dont take the bite...


It's a balance, and right now it's tipped in favor of pvp content due to high tier ore that is getting impossibly hard to find only avalible via asteroids(which is being guarded by the that one group that soaked up most of the remaining pvpr's in DU)  When that same ore is being added back to the game via auto-miners fellow care-bears will have the ability to get access to fresh ore again... till planet side territory warfare at least

As a PVE sandbox there isn't anything like DU still, there has to be balance- by forcing pvp to gain access to resources it sorta takes away from what I thought made DU great. 

I like that DU is trying to give us something to fight over- it's cool, am not against it. But there were literally 20 of 200 asteroids that spawned in the safe zone, that were mined out within minutes of going live... it's not enough to satisfy PVE content seekers as far as asteroid mining goes. Likewise, the dinner-bell for pirates that is the middle column...may as well just get rid of the "discovered" asteroid column haha... an entire fleet of people can drive out anyone that steps foot on an asteroid within 25 minutes.

It's painfully obvious that asteroids need to be rebalanced, from too little of them spawning in causing 1-2 days of the week to be roid huntin' days... to the /defense/ against pirates being to litter the sky with constructs.... and not being given remotely enough time to mine an asteroid once touched down.... Even if NQ gave us a full hour before it goes into the "discovery" tab groups will still fight over the Rare & Exotic asteroids, with player conflict still being created.

Like I had said, there is nothing like Dual Universe- IMHO the devs have very little to reference as far as what works and what doesn't- so it's all a bit of a experiment till things start clicking into place. 

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Why is there such a thing as position broadcasted at all?

Miners has to spend time and resources searching for asteroid, while PvP'ers are just given a list where to go?

 

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