Gold Sellers Assemble ...

[blazemonger]

 

So, what do you think..

[joaocordeiro]

There is already passive income: 100k for logging in. 

 

I have multiple points of view into this. 

 

For a solo player, this is a great thing. Gives him a stable platform to fall back in case his ships gets blown up by some pirates. 

 

But there needs to be a limit, per player, of how many territories that player can farm.

If not, we will see some orgs with 10000 territories completely dumping ore in the market at near negative prices. 

 

So for me this system can work if its set like this:

 

Limited number of automining territories, per player, expanded with some talent. 

 

Ammount given is calculated by Quality of the terrain multiplied by some global value controled NQ, multiplied by talents. 

 

Non-pvp territories will have very low quality (1% to 10%) compared to pvp territories. 

 

Keep orgs out of this. Or this will become the end game for orgs owning every pve land available and also dominating pvp land. 

Sure everyplayer can use their autominers in favor of the org, even RDMS those to the org. 

But no org owning autominers and no org talents for automining. 

 

 

Edit: with autominers limited to small numbers by player,  players will focus on high quality territories for their limited autominers. Increasing profitable conflict in pvp areas. 

[CoyoteNZ]

Sweet, something to do with my Sanctuary hex ?

[Eternal]

The rich do not need to work (in fact they do not work), regardless they are working or not (most probably they are not. why would they? it's not productive of their time!); the poor do need to work, regardless they are working now or unemployed (everyone has to eat).

 

Rich do not work, the poor works!

 

If you can take the passive income, you take the passive income! The problem in real-life is people do not know how to delegate the work, how to minimize the work, and how to leverage OPM (debt or whatever financing). A company has an asset. Asset is equity and liability (only a fool will use 100% equity). You have some liquidity to run the business (you better not run out of liquidity!). The business and it's asset will generate revenue (this will replenish--or increase your liquidity if your spending is a surplus). With income, you will make a payment on your debt, and over time, your liability and equity will separate (you are becoming richer!).

 

Are you paying for the debt? If you are, then it's bad debt (just like your mortgage. you call that an investment when it's not an income-generating asset?); if the debt is paying for the debt, then it's good debt! That is called leveraging a debt!

 

This opportunity is hard to make in real-life! Make this easily available in the game and I ain't working! I don't like to work! 

[Eternal]

If the mechanics of passive income is there, I take it! 

 

Add that mining unit and I will be sleeping my way in this game!

 

You wanna know what that 100k per account is? It is a government's financial assistance. It is one of those social programs! It is entitlement! Instead of subsidizing sh*t (subsidizing industries that create jobs), you go with the Latin American model of entitling the poor! You don't know how to run the economy! Give me 700K a day from 7 accounts (let's call it 6 children) and I ain't working my a*s! I ain't working at all! You're already paying my bills! NQ is turning this game into Latin America! (not to be racist or anything, I need to make a reference to a stupid government). They might as well call this game "Ayuda Universe" since they have no intention of removing this mechanics where everybody here is in government payroll lol! Just my suggestion! *sarcasm

[Shulace]

1 hour ago, Eternal said:

not to be racist or anything

Big yikes....

[XKentX]

Why people think a passive income that requires 0 brain activity is any good to any game or in-game economy ?

**IT IS NOT**

 

Everyone will put the "mining  unit" and get like X amount of ore per day. OK, first the price of ore will go down (no more mining and selling) then the price of all the products go down(as ore is now slowly flowing freely) so all the wanna be producers will suffer.

 

You will not become rich when everyone gets something, you get rich when you stand out of the crowd and do something unique.

[blundertwink]

13 hours ago, Eternal said:

If the mechanics of passive income is there, I take it! 

 

Add that mining unit and I will be sleeping my way in this game!

 

You wanna know what that 100k per account is? It is a government's financial assistance. It is one of those social programs! It is entitlement! Instead of subsidizing sh*t (subsidizing industries that create jobs), you go with the Latin American model of entitling the poor! You don't know how to run the economy! Give me 700K a day from 7 accounts (let's call it 6 children) and I ain't working my a*s! I ain't working at all! You're already paying my bills! NQ is turning this game into Latin America! (not to be racist or anything, I need to make a reference to a stupid government). They might as well call this game "Ayuda Universe" since they have no intention of removing this mechanics where everybody here is in government payroll lol! Just my suggestion! *sarcasm

 

Okay, first off...count all the exclamation points in your rant and delete like 95% of them! It doesn't help you! 

 

Apparently you don't really know anything about economics or game design. 

 

The reason they have a daily login bonus now is because there's no other fresh sources of currency beyond ore bots. Lack of currency supply results in deflation. 

The other fundamental game design reason is to mitigate stuck players, which is game design 101. It's far too easy for new players to get "stuck" without the daily bonus, no speeder, no way to make money beyond vacuuming rocks -- that login bonus helps new players find their feet when they crash. 

 

Beyond all that, your opinion about real life politics is neither relevant nor well-presented.

 

The terms of this forum are very clear: this isn't a place for your crappy rant against socialism, this is the place to discuss Dual Universe. Stick to the game. 

[joaocordeiro]

6 hours ago, XKentX said:

Why people think a passive income that requires 0 brain activity is any good to any game or in-game economy ?

**IT IS NOT**

 

Everyone will put the "mining  unit" and get like X amount of ore per day. OK, first the price of ore will go down (no more mining and selling) then the price of all the products go down(as ore is now slowly flowing freely) so all the wanna be producers will suffer.

 

You will not become rich when everyone gets something, you get rich when you stand out of the crowd and do something unique.

It's not this simple.

If the ore offering is lower than the amount removed from game (via some destruction mechanism) then the prices will go up.

The system itself is not negative, not more than manual ore mining. It just needs good balance.
 

[Taziar]

11 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

It's not this simple.

If the ore offering is lower than the amount removed from game (via some destruction mechanism) then the prices will go up.

The system itself is not negative, not more than manual ore mining. It just needs good balance.
 

 

Yes, prices are determined by supply and demand.  But supply is also determined by supply and demand, as well as effort.  In other words if demand for ore is low, fewer people will mine, which leads to a decrease in supply, which leads to prices stabilizing and possibly rising.  People don't want to waste their time for little profit.  But automated mining is automated.  A one time expense.  Once there, it will continue to supply with zero effort.  So ore if prices drop, it just takes a little longer to recoup expenses but still no effort.  No reason not to spam them.  And unless there is some hard restrictions in place, or maintenance expense, there are two likely outcomes.  They will produce more than is destroyed and permanently cripple the economy, or they will be nerfed to the point of uselessness.  Manual labor is basically self-balancing, automated resource production is not.  It is very, very hard to get right and nothing I have seen so far shows me the Devs have the economic expertise to pull it off.  

 

 

[joaocordeiro]

Just now, Taziar said:

 

as well as effort. 

 

The thing is, NQ came up to the conclusion no one will play the game to experience that "effort" every day.

Therefore, the effort is shift from manual grinding to  acquiring, setting up and defending the autominers.

Managing the autominers can also be an effort, depending on how this is implemented. But a much less painful one then manual mining every day.

[_Kiwi_]

who said that setting up a mining unit would be no work? I fully expect that the mining units will be in PVP areas only, and so they will become the things that people fight over on the surface looking for the best locations to set them up. Therefore it will be hard work to find, hold, and maintain the richest areas for mining units, even more so when power management comes out and some locations no longer are profitable to mine in.

[Taziar]

Just now, joaocordeiro said:

The thing is, NQ came up to the conclusion no one will play the game to experience that "effort" every day.

Therefore, the effort is shift from manual grinding to  acquiring, setting up and defending the autominers.

Managing the autominers can also be an effort, depending on how this is implemented. But a much less painful one then manual mining every day.

Yes, because the Devs lack a fundamental understanding of MMOs and human psychology.

 

MMOs = Grind.  That is a near universal fact.  The key is it shouldn't feel like a grind to players, or the payoff needs to feel worth it.  If you remove too much of the grind players will say "There is no end game" and stop playing.

 

As to autominers exclusively in PVP areas, that is equally as tone deaf.  PVP contested resources already have an innate sense of tension and excitement built in(with popular games with active PVP) and is a matter of balancing risk vs reward to make it worthwhile for players, it is not a boredom issue.   Mining in PVE is far more likely to be considered work, so PVP autominers would be a solution applied to the wrong problem.  It could even make it worse as it likely would further devalue their labor.  

[joaocordeiro]

1 minute ago, Taziar said:

Yes, because the Devs lack a fundamental understanding of MMOs and human psychology.

IF MMOs are great because of grinding, why is DU failing?

[Revelcro]

1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

IF MMOs are great because of grinding, why is DU failing?

 

Not enough pvp, duh.   If we were allowed to hunt the mining people across every planet and burn them out of every hex then we would have a lot more people logging in to grind.

[joaocordeiro]

And why would the "sheep" join a PVP + grind only game to be killed by you?

[Taziar]

Just now, joaocordeiro said:

IF MMOs are great because of grinding, why is DU failing?

 

 

I addressed that two sentence later in that post, but I will lay it out more clearly..  

 

A grind shouldn't feel like a grind.  A grind needs to feel rewarding. 

 

[Anomaly]

Way back in my Eve days moon mining was the thing to do when you could afford it.  Thing was, any of the moons worth having were also worth fighting over and located in the space where that was allowed.  I had my own mining station on a lesser moon for a while but the net income was always lower than most other activities I engaged in to make isk. 

 

The take away? The mining units need to be a relatively slow way to generate ore  unless they are located in the PVP zones.  I think it could work out.  We would always have a small amount of the basic ores coming in. In the PVP zones we could have some static points of interest for organizations to fight over. As long as they are distributed in such a way that one group cant dominate all of them, it should be good. 

[blundertwink]

Personally, I think automated mining should come with an industry revamp where power is a real concept. Schematics were always a hacky way to limit industry -- power is a much cleaner and more engaging mechanic. The ability to sell power as a utility would help with city-building and org politics. Power also limits the feasibility of mining scale and makes bootstrapping a mining operation more of an investment vs "slap down auto-miners anywhere". 

 

I think these deposits should be distinct from current deposits, like "deep ore" that is slow to extract and difficult to find (rare).

 

This helps tie geography / territory war into the industry/building portions of the game -- and makes competition over key areas more important. This again helps with the concept of city-building/settlements by giving people a reason to group into an area that has cheaper resources thanks to nearby mining ops.

 

It should not be as easy as dropping auto-miners everywhere and getting unlimited ores. 

 

Like most concepts people talk about around here, there's a lot of potential to make this work really well with DU and tie together the disparate 'pillars' of the game. Just saying "automation is bad because it's automatic" isn't compelling to me. 

[CoyoteNZ]

Never said automining was unlimited. Maybe it just does the same as regular mining, remove the ore from a hex, but at a set rate.

 

Guess the grind would then just switch from mining to scanning. 

[Lethys]

implement different tiers of autominers for different efficiencies and tasks

and allow it in the safezone, but only common ores and slower then in pvp zone where you can even automine rare ore

[Habitant]

I came in for the " GOLD SELLERS ASSEMBLE "

Therefore i am here to declare my presence ...

Mining units will be awesome ! I cant wait where these will be in game ...

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

[NQ-Naerais]

Just a quick reminder, RMT (Real Money Trading) is not permitted and is a bannable offence (just for those who were considering a new career ) Let's also keep the criticism to the game, not each other Thanks! 

[Elitez]

What exactly do you know about the mechanic of automatic mining because i dont know anything ? Which game offers passive mining to a level that thats the nr1 source of income, because i play games for 20 years and the most auto thing a game offered was BDO's system where u can afk slow, very slow fishing with pc open. Which other games had passive slow income?

[CoyoteNZ]

The passive income will probably be set at a level which means the people who play for a couple of hours a session can stop going down holes for ore.

 

i suspect it won’t stop the people who go down holes seven hours a day from doing it unless it’s scalable. If it’s scalable it will need a lot of balancing, but then again this is beta, that’s when you balance I suppose