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When will the space safe zone be removed?

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4 hours ago, Emptiness said:

Would you mind showing some examples of what you consider to be poorly built ships versus well built ships?

There's usually not much left but the elements when we get there, but we did kill one ship that was hauling about 150kl of Acanthite, among other things, and it had less than a G of thrust after I applied my level 4 space engine handling to the engines.  A lot of these ships seem to be built to use the magical powers of logging out to stop effectively at the destination.

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"Eve Online" must be doing something right, I mean it exists for many, many years now. Maybe there can be learned something from there.

 

In Eve you have 3 different zones - High Space, which is pretty secure (though you can still grief there, if you want, just with high penalty). Then you have a "Low Security" zone, and then you have a "Null Security" zone, where everything is allowed (rules there only are player-made).

 

I stopped playing Eve a couple of years ago, but until then ofc they hat the same type of discussion there, too, between PVP and not-PVP players. But in the end they stayed with all 3 zones, they did NOT completely abandon the safe zone.

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It has been founding principle of the game that there would be pervasive, FFA PvP. To anyone who came to this game not knowing and accepting that, to the point that they won't play if it remains,  I say, "Thank you for your donation of 20 bucks to a game you want to see succeed but don't want to play."

 

Moosegun has made eleventy billion good and salient points. And they are an industrialist.

 

The primary reason for eventual militarisation of all volume in the game (apart from the "neutral safe ground" of the Sanc Moon(s)), as I see it, is that if there is a safe space where all resources can be obtained, the concept of territory being held becomes moot. You won't need to fight for resources because you can just get them in the safe zone. So the only reason to fight will be "for the love of combat", which is meaningless and hollow in the context of setting up a "civilisation". Right now, every resource can be obtained risk-free, and the danger is in moving it from place to place. In EvE, you can't get everything in HiSec; the rewards are predominantly in 0.0 space, with Hi-Lo-Nul being the "game progression".

 

The answer to the title question of the thread is "not any time soon", or at least I hope that's the case. Not because I don't want pervasive FFA, but because the game systems are not yet ready for it. There should be safe zones in space right up until the systems for territory warfare go live. And there should be a big "We're backing the game up now. If it goes pear-shaped, we'll be rolling back to the state at this date," notice posted weeks in advance and all over the Internet (not that this will happen; NQ will probably sneak TW in on a Tuesday night patch and then announce it on MySpace ;} ). Before TW can happen, they need to sort out the dog's breakfast that is materials and make space combat actually function in some sort of plausible way with roles for all classes of ship. The current meta is boring. You need TW in place so that, if the civilisation has the will, pirates and criminals can be hunted down and wiped from the place of whatever den of vice and iniquity they infest, else swatting them out of the sky becomes a never-ending chore. And that TW has to have mechanisms in place to make that wiping-out costly and expensive, so that it's not just a matter of glassing a planet and calling it done.

 

It has been suggested that PvP is contrary to the lore because humanity would have passed the point of waging war by the time the arkship got to where "we are" in game. I'd suggest that this is primarily irrelevant, since the game's founding principles include war. If you must, it's trivial to think of reasons why such a speculate might not be the case. But essentially, that's just fluff, and a degree of fluff that pales into insignificance compared to all the "handwaving" that has to go into making the technology "work" for the purposes of game play.

 

It has been suggested that space PvP is for gankers and griefers. I counter that there are corps out there who have set themselves up to be "protectors". Without PvP, that becomes a meaningless role in the world. Space PvP *is*. At the moment, a lot of folks are just heading out there looking for something, anything to shoot at. If it shoots back, that's a bonus, but most things don't, and the loot is a consolation prize.

 

Another key part of the civilisation puzzle that is heretofore missing is  communication. Without message boards where people can offer jobs, commerce is mediated entirely by the markets and restricted to known-to-the-game objects (materials, elements and quanta). It is difficult to offer services or constructs for sale or to buy. Until such a mission system exists, there's no commonly-available way to engage escorts or call for help or rescue or revenge justice. That's another thing that needs to be in place before the current safe zones are dropped back.

 

It's very simple: if you don't want to PvP, get someone else to do it for you. Or take the risk and suck it up. Or you can sortof PvP by taking measures to mitigate your risk: would you rather spend a bit more fuel and time and arrive having dodged the blockade (with the added frisson of watching the out-of-position attacker stive to cut an intercept course, and fail before you drop into the safe zone), or do you want to save that fuel and time and increase the risk of a successful intercept by flying CoM-CoM. Hauling is boring. Being chased and applying your brain to evading pursuit and intercept should be embraced as enhancements to the game. Maybe it's a bit more complicated than I said at the start of the paragraph. But it doesn't have to be.

 

Commerce raiding is something that naval transport has had to deal with since the days of the Sea Peoples. East Indiamen used to carry a few light cannon to deter pirates on their way to collect valuable shipments. Spanish galleons fetching gold and silver back from the New World were some of the best-protected ships that the wrights of the time could build. A convoy of Gold Ships was way beyond even the capabilities of the best-organised raiders sponsored by hostile military powers; they had to wait for inclement weather to scatter the elements and deal with the ones they could find in detail before they regrouped. If you're going into space, you need to be more like the C16th and 17th Spanish (without the colonial attitude and genocide), and you don't even need to deal with space weather. 

 

PvP is part of the game. You can either accept that, embrace it and join in the fun, or be unhappy any time you need to head somewhere you might get jumped. If you think you're being ganked, get your own gang. If you think you're being griefed, stop being an easy target. If you don't want to do either of those things, just stop.

The game has always been about building civilisations and including PvP. If you don't want to do either of those things, don't be surprised if the game is hard. A thousand hermits living in the boonies and not interacting outside the market place is not a civilisation, by the way. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, FryingDoom said:

Hold on, if PvP is so highly loved by so many, surely there must be thousands of people feely engaging in PvP, as so many love it.

 

Why do you need to force people into PvP if it is such a great thing?

You speak as though you speak for everyone. If you dont want PVP, stay in the none PVP zone.

17 hours ago, Emptiness said:

No, the end goal of this game is to build a thriving civilization.

 

Pvpers are the emotionally disturbed and should be rooted out and exterminated with prejudice.

No, the end goal of this game is not to build a thriving civilisation. What would be the point in subscribing further then? 
I have everything i need in the game, i'm building a large core atm.
If i have all the resources, my land is safe why would i continue subscribing. 
I have then finished the game, i have met the end goal.
If this is the whole game then I guess i'll return to Eve online and play space engineers if i wanted to build something.
 

20 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

Because it aint, and nobody is apparently building ships for pure PvP to get them destroyed.

As i read this i think the aim is not to have more PvP but to have more targets for free stuff.

DU is not a PvP game, it is a game and has PvP.

DU also does not bring content, It Is Content and the people need to make the story.

Well, i was not planning to put C.A.T.S. AcE into action already but now i think I will have to. For defense of our partners we  build fighters for pure PvP with the sole aim to kill these people who are just waiting for an easy kill. So if your looking to help and defend and are not too lazy to only go for free ships provided but actually work to build your ship, join ushttps://discord.gg/uJXeJ7q  .

 

I do however share the motion that in beta we already need to have all zones as we will have them after reall launch, And not have them changet at day 1 after launch.

 

DU is a pvp game, if it has PVP its a pvp game.
Lots of us are building ships for pure pvp to get them destroyed.
 

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I'm reading this thread and scratching my head. 

All is fine and dandy, all arguments are good- but - and that is crucial but, to go into pvp area i have to know that i can influence result of pvp engagement. At very least i have to believe i can influce that result. Until meta change, there is no way in hell i will take any cargo hauler outside safe zone. I'm not a gambler. 

As a hermit - if i go outside i either meat ganker and die, or i don't meat pvp (so anyone). That is pure chance. Dice roll. My skills, my ship design won't matter because pvp ship will practically always be faster and if pilot knows what he is doing it will kill me with ease. I can't fight because there is no way to make proper XS killbox that is able to haul cargo worth of time investment. I can make anything bigger than XS because it will be dead every single time. So I'm not going to participate in pvp in any other role than yet another ganker - if at all - because this is the only single way I have any influence on result. 

But lets say i'm not a hermit - i'm part of organization. So now i have to take on escort. How many escort ship do i need? How long escorting players will have to stick around when i'm mining? How many I actually need to be safe? 
From what I understand, you need more borg minicubes than your opponent have. Gankers has 3? Bring 6. Or 12. No group of ganker will attack freighter defended by enough boxes. But no way enough players will sacrifice their time to escort hauler which is quarantined not to be attacked. Who would sign up for few hours of total boredom and doing nothing? Not me. And for sure not enough players will go with me for me to have enough escorts to be safe. 
And again - with current meta it comes back to gambling. Either i will have enough escort to discourage gankers or i'm (and now with escort ships too) dead. Again there is no skill involved on my part or even on escort part. 

So my conclusion is - current meta kills pvp in any other form than ganking. Kills shipping outside safe zone. And kills everything which is not borg minicube killbox, at least outside safe zone. Until this is change, and we know what will come after, any changes to safe zones can wipe huge percent of player base. Only gamblers and gankers would stay - and gamblers tend to bankrupt themselves so they would probably be wiped out of the game too, by pure natural selection. Than gankers would follow because they would have literally nothing to hunt for. 

Convince me i'm wrong.

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11 minutes ago, shaman said:

You speak as though you speak for everyone. If you dont want PVP, stay in the none PVP zone.

No, the end goal of this game is not to build a thriving civilisation. What would be the point in subscribing further then? 
I have everything i need in the game, i'm building a large core atm.
If i have all the resources, my land is safe why would i continue subscribing. 
I have then finished the game, i have met the end goal.
If this is the whole game then I guess i'll return to Eve online and play space engineers if i wanted to build something.
 

DU is a pvp game, if it has PVP its a pvp game.
Lots of us are building ships for pure pvp to get them destroyed.
 

In my opinion DU is a PVP game if you want to do PvP.

If you want to do PvE only, it is a PvE game for you.

 

If you want to do both, it is an PvPvE game.

 

It is up to you how you want to play Dual Universe.

Just because someone claims that this is a PvP game doesn't mean that everyone have to build ships to be shot down only (it acts like a simple black and white thinking).

Players with PvP intent shouldn't complain about missing targets or hiding players (like a cat complaining that mice stay in the wall) and PvE players shouldn't complain about being attacked.

Everything is possible ...

 

At some point there are sure to be organizations that ensure security. Make laws or whatever.
Because if we only fix ourselves on the fact that PvP is possible and everyone should behave like that, then it is no longer Dual Universe but another shooter that is in development.

I can understand both sides and I can understand that with the currently limited possibilities, frustration and boredom occur when it is not possible to fight a number of players. But we must not forget that there are limited possibilities.

 

We will soon have more opportunities to be busy .... I hope ...

 

Until then, the cats among you shouldn't ask to tear down the walls just to be able to kill more mice (this will probably only lead to even more frustration because at some point nobody wants to do anything at all) and the PvE players should be aware of that outside of the safe zones, violence awaits (there really aren't any other things to do so very likely you will be shot at ...).

 

Thank you very much!
Luukullus

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Another reason why I am very worried and against indiscriminate PVP concerns creativity.

I currently see a multitude of extremely elaborate works. We talk about advanced and aesthetically exceptional voxelmancy.
Not just ships, but lots of buildings and org bases too. And not just small orgs.

The voxel in pvp is deleted. And there is currently no voxel "repair" tool.

This means that the simplest forms will be rewarded in a pvp context for the speed of use and optimization.
Because once all the artistically beautiful creations are canceled, why spend resources and time to redo them? For the amusement of who will return to destroy them?
The cities with the tall towers full of glass and rich in detail will become endless expanses of flat and smooth cubes and the ships will have the appearance of flying cubes.

I'm sure pvp lovers don't care. Yet I Play was also advertised for its creative side. So it is objectively an important part wanted and programmed by the developers.

If the current safe zone becomes permanent in the future, I would be delighted. There is a whole huge remaining solar system in which to build cube-shaped bases and shoot flying cubes and cylinders.

There is space to do all of these things. I don't see the need to force those who don't want to pvp to suffer it.
Above all, I don't see the need to condition the whole creative aspect in function of a single component of the game.

If you think that making beautiful ships or buildings is silly, that they are just "beautiful sandcastles", you are right about castles, but you are greatly underestimating the advertising aspect of building a really cool ship or base.
Because if 2 years ago I had seen DU ships in the shape of cubes with wings, with the heck I would have done my subscription!

Someone mentioned ethical or moral arguments.
Nonsense.
It is a game and what we are discussing is entertainment.
I know he talks about mechanics that should have fun for us.
Realism and morals are not topics for discussion

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36 minutes ago, Elrood said:

So my conclusion is - current meta kills pvp in any other form than ganking. Kills shipping outside safe zone. And kills everything which is not borg minicube killbox, at least outside safe zone. Until this is change, and we know what will come after, any changes to safe zones can wipe huge percent of player base. Only gamblers and gankers would stay - and gamblers tend to bankrupt themselves so they would probably be wiped out of the game too, by pure natural selection. Than gankers would follow because they would have literally nothing to hunt for. 

Agreed

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2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

Another reason why I am very worried and against indiscriminate PVP concerns creativity.

I currently see a multitude of extremely elaborate works. We talk about advanced and aesthetically exceptional voxelmancy.
Not just ships, but lots of buildings and org bases too. And not just small orgs.

The voxel in pvp is deleted. And there is currently no voxel "repair" tool.

This means that the simplest forms will be rewarded in a pvp context for the speed of use and optimization.
Because once all the artistically beautiful creations are canceled, why spend resources and time to redo them? For the amusement of who will return to destroy them?
The cities with the tall towers full of glass and rich in detail will become endless expanses of flat and smooth cubes and the ships will have the appearance of flying cubes.

I don't mean to minimise your concerns. They're valid points. I think perhaps we can still remain optimistic that NQ have thought of most of them, and will be introducing mechanics that mean the worst fears won't come to pass, and current... suboptimal conditions will, conversely, pass.

 

Personally I am optimistic that the systems NQ implement around Territory Warfare will mean that there will be little "random vandalism". If someone attacks your base, it will be for a reason, and they will have to expend significant effort, time and treasure to press their attack. So if your soaring spires and twinkling minarets are destroyed, you may well be able to rebuild them without fear that they'll get destroyed again. Maybe not in the same place if the reason was "I want that hex", and you lose. Unless you get on the bad side of an entire ORG to the extent that they want to hound you to the ends of the universe, at which point, building pretty palaces should be the least of your concerns.

 

There is currently a voxel repair tool for dynamic cores. If your static has been wrecked, your only option is to re-deploy it from BP with new voxels. You can BP statics, in case you didn't know. And it seems likely to me that if your hex has been attacked to the point of ruining your buildings, you'll be having to rebuild from the ground up, somewhere else, because just wrecking your buildings won't be worth the expenditure it takes, unless something very personal has gone on; they'll want to take your land, and whatever elements you didn't manage to pack up and spirit away before your shields fell. I imagine the burghers of Cologne would have loved something as straightforward as a Bloop for their beautiful cathedral. Would have saved a lot of restoration work. Coventry just decided to make a new one and tack it on the side of the old ruin.

 

I guess the point is that people are going to have to learn to deal with the destruction of their creations. This should be easier to come to terms with when you separate your creativity from the construct you made. You'll have a safe space on a Sanctuary Moon where you can keep a library of blueprints, even an entire Industry and stockpiles to rebuild what you've made, with a comparatively trivial effort. There's no reason a broken spire needs to remain un-rebuilt.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

I'm sure pvp lovers don't care. Yet I Play was also advertised for its creative side. So it is objectively an important part wanted and programmed by the developers.

This is true. Tarring all PvP enthusiasts with the "don't care about creativity" brush isn't a fair assessment though. Some of the most avid hunters I know are involved in prestige building projects. I'm in a PvP centric org, but the bosses will not adopt ugly ship designs as "Org equipment", and we regularly get people asking to buy our gear when they see it. We'll be in the ship-selling game when the shipwrights' IP can properly be protected.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

If the current safe zone becomes permanent in the future, I would be delighted. There is a whole huge remaining solar system in which to build cube-shaped bases and shoot flying cubes and cylinders.

And there would be no point to it. If everything anyone ever needed could be made in the massive safe zone, that would be where all the ORG HQs would be, churning out ships to what? Go conquer land that's unnnecessary? And no war could ever be prosecuted to the "bitter end" because there would always be an inviolable, fully developed resource base from which the defeated ORG could recover.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

There is space to do all of these things. I don't see the need to force those who don't want to pvp to suffer it.

If someone didn't want PvP, why did they sign up to the game? FFA, pervasive PvP has been part of the offering since the game was first conceived. The reflection of your statement is: I don't see the need to deny PvP to those who were promised it and are only here because of that promise.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

Above all, I don't see the need to condition the whole creative aspect in function of a single component of the game.

If you think that making beautiful ships or buildings is silly, that they are just "beautiful sandcastles", you are right about castles, but you are greatly underestimating the advertising aspect of building a really cool ship or base.

If you look south from your base, you should see some really cool buildings coming along (Howdy neighbour, by the way! :) ). We have a few "industrial sheds", which were a necessity to get started quicly, but every town has those; they'll provide contrast for the control tower, and the chop shop and the other things people are putting up. My only building is a shoddy mess, right now, but it was a workbench to learn how industry works, and I'm making plans to prettify it. Same with my speeder, but I'm starting to learn how voxels work, now. Come over and visit The Anvil, and you'll see that PvP organisations also take pride in the appearance of their ships. Sometimes the functional bits detract from the overall look, but our head shipwright always likes to put an aesthetic on his creations. We have several people in the org who are in the game explicitly to play with the voxels. It's early days yet.

 

Do come visit. If anyone's giving you problems, we might be able to help out.

 

One thing that the very threat of PvP will do is bring people together for mutual defense. Which will increase the concentration of nice buildings, and exponentially increase the exposure of those buildings to other players. What is the point of erecting a beautiful building far away from admiring gazes? I hope that the mechanics around TW will take into account neighbours, even "neutral" ones.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

Because if 2 years ago I had seen DU ships in the shape of cubes with wings, with the heck I would have done my subscription!

Give it time. Not only does designing voxels take time, the combat meta is definitively going to change, and I remain optimistic that cool shapes will be better than clunky cubes. Even just the introduction of atmospheric drag, on the advent of atmo combat, will mean ships have to be designed to fight under those conditions (not necessarily improving space constructs, but it's a start). I wish NQ would talk to us about their plans for TW and the combat mechanics, so we could argue the merits of actual plans, instead of debating in terms of total hypotheticals, but for now we can remain optimistic that NQ aren't newbs at this, and have at least given consideration to your valid concerns about preservation of a "culture", and my concerns about the dumb-ass combat meta (not that we're the only people with these concerns, by any means).

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Considering how many ways devs plans have been interpreted, it’s pretty safe to say that no matter which course the devs take there will be angry noises.

 

 

right now I think it’s safe to say that the game is following the Worlds Adrift path.   Where the devs promise multiple play styles, actually provide for them for a short while,  and then ultimately have a design where the only option that overrides all others is PvP.   It even rhymes with the Worlds Adrift release where there are rumors of item duplication, old mechanics getting nerfed while leaving players that abused them with their gains, and the devs trying to hide behind obscurity to keep those massive abuses from being known to most players.

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The BP allows me to recreate from scratch a structure of which I made a blue print. But not to repair damaged voxel sections.
If I have a construct, be it static or dynamic, filled with complex details made with the Voxel, unless I have missed something very important (and if so, please tell me because it changes my life! LOL) there is no tool that allows me to restore parts of that voxel, but only to replicate the whole construct. So I would have to, in order to "fix it", completely dismantle the previous construct and reuse the BP. Unless I organize myself with a second construct made only of the voxel form of the first to be used to "copy and paste" on the first. But even then it wouldn't work effectively and voxel handlers know that it's not enough to copy and paste the voxel to place it well.

Welcome to you too :)

The fact that I play alone does not mean that I "am alone" :)
But thanks for your concern.
If in the future I find myself seeking shelter and the people I work with are no longer available, I will certainly consider leaning on orgs.
Or just drop the game. Some say it as if it should be a threat, or I don't know what ... if something that created me pleasure becomes disturbing and I can keep it from bothering me by simply not doing it, I generally don't do it anymore.
The problem isn't what I'm going to do though.
The problem is that many will do so.

But I'm not hiding by saying that a pvp or pve mechanic is necessary or not.
I'm interested in having fun.

DU is beautiful at the moment. I like it. I relax and it's fun.
The PVP part doesn't interest me. They say it is very lacking and still needs a lot of work. I am unable to speak about what PVP would need.
But I am quite capable of understanding what it would cause and my fears are the same that have already been expressed and emphasizing or repeating them makes no sense.

We'll see.

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Its an age old threat to say that the game will lose its players if things go pvp. This is an assumption based on your own views and does not reflect reality.

Whenever pvp is mentioned the loud always mumble that muh game will lose players. 

Not true, in fact there are loads of people that i know of that is waiting to join this game, i'm not talking one or two but entire groups in another game i shall not mention.

They are waiting for news on pvp. So am I. I dont want to invest all this time in a game that eventually is not pvp related or at least has some meaningful building up of a system instead of just hoarding things and building ships for absolutely no reason than to take screenshots.

(I'm not giving people crap that like nice screenshots, i like them also, rather the point i'm making.....)

 

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2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

The BP allows me to recreate from scratch a structure of which I made a blue print. But not to repair damaged voxel sections.
If I have a construct, be it static or dynamic, filled with complex details made with the Voxel, unless I have missed something very important (and if so, please tell me because it changes my life! LOL) there is no tool that allows me to restore parts of that voxel, but only to replicate the whole construct. So I would have to, in order to "fix it", completely dismantle the previous construct and reuse the BP.

As I understand it, this is, indeed the case, for static constructs at this time.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

Unless I organize myself with a second construct made only of the voxel form of the first to be used to "copy and paste" on the first. But even then it wouldn't work effectively and voxel handlers know that it's not enough to copy and paste the voxel to place it well.

It's a nuisance that c&p won't suffice for the clever stuff. Maybe that will improve as the game matures. I certainly hope so, even though it's not likely I'll be getting deep into the voxelmancy field.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

Welcome to you too :)

The fact that I play alone does not mean that I "am alone" :)
But thanks for your concern.
If in the future I find myself seeking shelter and the people I work with are no longer available, I will certainly consider leaning on orgs.

Well good luck, and if you ever need to borrow a cup of sugar, you know where we are.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

Or just drop the game. Some say it as if it should be a threat, or I don't know what ... if something that created me pleasure becomes disturbing and I can keep it from bothering me by simply not doing it, I generally don't do it anymore.

If a passtime stops being fun, its time to stop the passtime, for sure. I think one of the hopes that NQ harbour is that people will be sufficiently invested in their work that they'll want to struggle on with it and/or find a way to get even, if someone breaks their toys. Even if that's just putting a bounty out, or paying another org to devastate a hex of your attacker, and that they'll find that fun, too. So long as people remain sporting about it, PvP doesn't have to be a ship that floats on a river of tears.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

The problem isn't what I'm going to do though.
The problem is that many will do so.

And it's unfortunate that they've not grasped the concept behind the game. DU isn't like EvE where you can putter about in HiSec to your heart's content; "HiSec" will eventually be only on the Sanctuary Moon(s), which will get crowded, I think. There's no LoSec; everywhere else is going to be 0.0 space and you will have to make provision for self defense, which will probably mean banding together.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

The PVP part doesn't interest me. They say it is very lacking and still needs a lot of work. I am unable to speak about what PVP would need.

You're not wrong. The current placeholder mechanic is jejeune and will not hold anyone's interest for very long. Especially as it's going to go away, so there's not even much point "getting good" at it.

2 hours ago, Leogradance said:

But I am quite capable of understanding what it would cause and my fears are the same that have already been expressed and emphasizing or repeating them makes no sense.

We'll see.

Indeed we will. Good luck out there in the 'verse!

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On 9/16/2020 at 11:59 AM, FryingDoom said:

PvE also adds risk and a lot more people seem to enjoy that than they do PvP.

 

What I find startling is the fact that PvP gamers always talk about how good PvP is but they only ever seem to want to attack non-PvP players in ships that cannot fight back, against players with no interest in learning all of the skills and abilities to PvP. They never seem to form into opposing groups in areas with the aim of attacking other PvP players.

Why choose to play chess then complain about nasty people taking your pieces when all the game is for is playing with the nice horsey?

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23 hours ago, Thor Wotansen said:

Agreed, the people who are the most vocal here are the types who spent 4 weeks building an intricate ship out of aluminum, with fancy greebling, forgot to blueprint it, and then flew off to Ion, or Jago, or some other remote planet, and got themselves blown up.  The old Eve adage of "Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose" still rings true in DU.  The other alternative is to join a Nation type org and pay taxes to ensure your safety.

So much this.  Most PVP, even in games like EVE and Elite Dangerous (which has the worst ever way to deal with this) can be avoided with care and effortt.

 

The people who whine and whinge about pvp have;

 

a) willingly joined a game with PVP and then started to insist "...but not for me, ever!"

 

b) have no willingness to learn how to avoid pvp or to protect themselves from opportunistic attacks

 

c) are too concerned for the health of pixels.

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7 hours ago, Leogradance said:

The BP allows me to recreate from scratch a structure of which I made a blue print. But not to repair damaged voxel sections.
If I have a construct, be it static or dynamic, filled with complex details made with the Voxel, unless I have missed something very important (and if so, please tell me because it changes my life! LOL) there is no tool that allows me to restore parts of that voxel, but only to replicate the whole construct. So I would have to, in order to "fix it", completely dismantle the previous construct and reuse the BP. Unless I organize myself with a second construct made only of the voxel form of the first to be used to "copy and paste" on the first. But even then it wouldn't work effectively and voxel handlers know that it's not enough to copy and paste the voxel to place it well.

There is in fact a repair unit that will fix damaged voxels and elements, you just have to load a snapshot of the construct into the repair unit and it will replace and repair everything that is missing from the damaged construct that is in the snapshot.

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6 hours ago, Anopheles said:

So much this.  Most PVP, even in games like EVE and Elite Dangerous (which has the worst ever way to deal with this) can be avoided with care and effortt.

 

The people who whine and whinge about pvp have;

 

a) willingly joined a game with PVP and then started to insist "...but not for me, ever!"

 

b) have no willingness to learn how to avoid pvp or to protect themselves from opportunistic attacks

 

c) are too concerned for the health of pixels.

This is 100% eve online. It's bad when you arent even surprised by people there anymore.  18 years after release, you will still see an occasional new person get ganked, then go on a rant about how its poor mechanics and ganking is the reason eve is dying.  And this may be anecdotal, as I know salt comes from anywhere, but after playing for 10 years of eve, I've been called the N word on more than one occasion in eve. And it was only when I ganked a miner in "High Security" space. Coincidence? You be the judge. 

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On 9/16/2020 at 7:50 AM, FryingDoom said:

Oh so you add the term player driven and suddenly PvP must be compulsory.

 

Why do I get the feeling this game is going to just end up as a copy of EvE where most of the players left years ago.

Player driven economy is also PvP in itself.  You are competing against other players.  You just aren't also shooting them with internet space bullets/lasers/missiles.

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On 9/16/2020 at 6:50 AM, Moosegun said:

The other solution is to remove any alloys T2 from Alioth / Madis / Thades and there moons.  So players that are scared of losing pixels can potter about in safe zone, and those of us who dont mind heading out into space can bring back the good stuff from them.

I am an industrialist trader but I am 100% for open pvp in as many areas a possible but ONLY when NQ gives us the tools we need to combat it

  • RDMS to include shared KOS / Friendly lists of other orgs players
  • The ability to store information on player who attacked org assets

PvP is vital as a means to add risk to a game that has none, it add values to products and gameplay.  Without any NPC's there needs to be pvp to create a sink for all the wealth being created.  NQ are clearly in no rush though, development to date 100% suggests that they are happy for us to keep building up civilisation before we start to knock some of it down and I think that is a good thing.  The fact that PvP updates arent even in the first part of the roadmap suggests how important NQ place it in the big scheme of things.  Think we are a good 3-6 months of relaxing of safe zones / atmos pvp.

*goes toward a hill with 50%+ cargo in a uef turd... explodes

hill:"railguns aint got nothin on me~!!!!"

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9 hours ago, Thor Wotansen said:

There is in fact a repair unit that will fix damaged voxels and elements, you just have to load a snapshot of the construct into the repair unit and it will replace and repair everything that is missing from the damaged construct that is in the snapshot.

Does that work on statics too? I had gathered that it's dynamics only, but that could have been a faulty assumption somewhere along the chain of info, since I've not actually seen or used one.

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On 9/16/2020 at 5:01 AM, Busterguy said:

Hello, now people are getting more advanced in the game and I’m seeing more people trying to get into PVP. When will the safe zone be removed around Alioth, madis and thades. I presume this is only temporary as the only true safe zone, in the end, should be the sanc moon of course.

 

I hope it happens soon so there is more resource drain in the economy. otherwise people are just going to sit on stacks of materials and the economy will be pointless 

 

Not sure why you would want to force PvP with the current badly broken system that needs a complete overhaul. o.O  

 

NQ devs are now fully aware of what will happen as soon as they remove any safe zones, that being, the small, hard core PvP community will set up ambushes for all warp points coming back and blockade slow boating ships with long range weapons that currently have no counter to them. There is currently no defense against the current very limited PvP encounters that are factually very 1-sided. 

 

I would encourage the NQ devs to take the requisite time to revamp the PvP system, get it balanced, and make sure it is well tested before considering removing any safe zones. 

 

There are plenty of other places outside safe zones that are already starting to see major exploiting of game mechanics and plenty of screenshots showcasing just how 1-sided these encounters are and continue to be. 

 

If you want economic loss and reason to have to keep rebuilding, then perhaps you would encourage the devs to put in a proper collision system, or make crashing your ship actually cost you components in which you cannot simply nano-repair with scrap, but will have to salvage wreckage and get a percentage of resources / parts back to re-make / re-build what was lost. 

 

So many other way to stimulate an economy and seeing as this is still very early Beta, I suspect we will see many big updates in the coming months.

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9 minutes ago, Sycopata said:

SNIP

Your point would be better made if people could actually read it without unnecessary scrolling or re-formatting. Not everyone will bother.

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