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ChipPatton

My Community Has Withdrawn Our Pledges

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My guild has withdrawn its support of the Kickstarter because of the pay-to-win the DAC adds in which we were told very specifically on the KS page that DAC was "set in stone" by the project creator.  Some, understandably, will argue that DAC is nowhere near pay-to-win, but our scope for defining a pay to win game is quite specific:
 

 

If two players were to start the game at the same time, one with a $100 budget and one with a $100,000 budget, could both achieve equal stats {in-game currency included} and have equal access to combat capabilities in the same timeframes? Yes = Approved Game; No = Pay To Win Game.
SRC: https://divinereapers.org/2016/09/dual-universe-dr-drops-support/

 

According to this very specific doctrine written by our community officers years ago, this game fits well within the realm of pay-to-win. 

 

Our guild has had a lot of bad experiences with pay to win and models exactly like this, most notably from EVE where we engaged in Alliance v Alliance wars in nullsec.  After the Plex was added to the game we found the wars came down to wallet sizes as ISK (which could be gained by dumping thousands of Plex on the market) meant everything in a war, from hiring allies, to replacing ships and implants.  Our members are fiscally responsible adults ranging from lawyers, executives, and politicians to labor workers, consultants, and unemployed.  We are a diverse group and we enjoy having equal footing in any game we play. EVE became a cesspool of wallet wars that our unemployed couldn't participate in, and our more privileged demographics wouldn't participate in.

 

Our community's officers asked us yesterday to withdraw all of our pledges from Dual Universe's Kickstarter with the following message:

 

 

DAC = P2W, Sorry!

And that, sadly, is how we feel and confirmed 19 withdrawals ranging from top-tier to gold pledges (we all wanted access to the alpha and had many of our members donated pledges to other members for that access).

If this ever changes we will reconsider our pledges or subbing for the game if a pledge is too late.

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Hi ChipPatton and welcome to our forum.
 
There has been indeed a few people on the Kickstarter saying DAC was a "Pay to Win" feature.
We also replied to why it wasn't and why we went for this feature. 
We also agreed that it probably wasn't a perfect model, but it was the best we found until now. 
 
This was our official reply:
 

 

We're not going to be Pay-to-Win, at least not what we define as "Pay-to-Win": you seem to think that trading a month for in-game currency is a Pay to Win mechanics. In our books, it's not. What is really pay to win (from our point of view) is the following: If an item gives an advantage to a player against other players, and this item is obtainable ONLY by paying real life money... then yes you are in a case of Pay-to-Win. That's the exact, original definition of Pay-to-Win. 

 
In our case, selling DACs for in-game currency allows just have more in-game money. Will they be able to buy many things with in-game currency in a short amount of time? Sure. But all they will have bought can be bought by anyone. It will take just more time to gather in-game currency by just playing. Not a perfect system? probably... but one of the best possible. 
 
Because if we are totally honest here, if DACs are not implemented, the players having significant amounts of real money to spend and wanting quickly a lot of in-game currency will get it anyway from shady websites. Waging wars against goldfarming website is an eternal battle that can't be won because there will always be demand from some players. In that case, what's the best compromise? The one that has already been implemented in 3 MMORPGs among the most popular: EvE Online (with the PLEX), World of Warcraft (WoW Time Token) and Wildstar (with the CREDD). That way, those who will spend real life money to get in-game currency will help at least those who have a lot of spare time to play but not the necessary budget to pay a monthly fee to keep them playing. Not a perfect solution, but the best compromise we found so far, as this system has been proven quite efficient to keep goldfarmers away too.

 

The DAC/PLEX/CREDD system isn't at fault there.
The problem is elsewhere because without this system, the problem remains: it's just hidden.
And it's not because something is hidden that it doesn't exist.
 
The people we got in contact with (probably your officers) turn a complete blind eye on our point of view.
They didn't try to understand our position or even suggest an alternative.
It's always easy to blame or criticize something without trying to come with a better option.
 
In this situation, how could the discussion go anywhere?
Threatening to cancel the pledges (and doing so) won't change the situation either if there no dialog and just threats.
We want to listen to feedbacks from all people interested in our game and take them into account, but without constructive feedback helping to find a good compromise for both sides, it's not possible. Also, while we want to satisfy as much players as possible, We are also aware that we can't satisfy everybody. 
 
In any case, we remain open to discussion if you have more to say on this topic.
 
Best regards,
Nyzaltar.

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Don't understand this kind of complaint.

 

Ok. Let's imagine, NQ remove DACs. Game released. We play few months. Players already can find black market offers (with fakes as well) for "Want to buy/sell 1 month subscribe for in-game cash/money". And you already get a similar situation. Next few months. There come some websites with offers to sell/buy in-game money.

 

So NQ creates a bit more expensive, but the safer system only. With it or without, your "trouble" won't disappear.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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The EvE plex system was never pay to win either, it allows people who did have money to buy plex for i state a higher value than the regular monthly rate and then place it onto the in game market for ISK. This allowed players that have the time to make the ISK but not the real world currency to pay, to have access to a 1 month extension on their account on use of said plex.

 

This is not pay to win! It is simply an alternative service to those who can not afford or do not want to have to pay a monthly subscription with real world currency. 

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Please - before there's another round of forum bashing people for having opinions, concerns or otherwise - let @NQ-Nyaltzar sort it out.

 

Flaming every thread about the business model in know way helps the community grow, discourages dialogue, and suppresses the free and frank exchange of ideas.

 

The OP, and @EagleOne in another thread had either valid concerns (which Devs have addressed - they don't need our help) or suggestions (which were flamed down rather than being taken on-board and passed on to NQ with a thanks for the idea) - frankly, the Community response has been a little disappointing.

 

It's going to be a long and lonely 2 years if we're not welcoming and constructive. Yes - the threads frustrate you all, but you win more friends with honey than with vinegar.

 

2 cents.

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Please - before there's another round of forum bashing people for having opinions, concerns or otherwise - let @NQ-Nyaltzar sort it out.

 

Flaming every thread about the business model in know way helps the community grow, discourages dialogue, and suppresses the free and frank exchange of ideas.

 

The OP, and @EagleOne in another thread had either valid concerns (which Devs have addressed - they don't need our help) or suggestions (which were flamed down rather than being taken on-board and passed on to NQ with a thanks for the idea) - frankly, the Community response has been a little disappointing.

 

It's going to be a long and lonely 2 years if we're not welcoming and constructive. Yes - the threads frustrate you all, but you win more friends with honey than with vinegar.

 

2 cents.

 

So how to sort this problem out? Remove ALL kind of TRADE! No trade at all! No ways to get resources easy, everything must be fully destructable. No any kind of communication and other. Because of trade and communication - P2W (everyone can buy for real money without the official system. Everyone can buy help for real money). If you don't block it, you support it. And even removing these 2 MAIN features won't guarantee anything.

 

So calling this kind of moan as constructive opinion is wrong.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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So, you were only looking to play the game for a short period of time ?

I can understand why this system is frustrating for you then.

 

 

For the player looking at the game as an evergoing long term adventure, like EvE and other persistent mmos, their is absolutely no problem with the DAC/PLEX system running as an alternative to the monthly subscription.

 

As a player not infusing $$$ into the game , you would still be able to earn money otherwise using the game mechanics.

As long as it is not possible to progress your skills faster using money, DU can't be "pay-to-win".

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In a sandbox MMORPG like this if they did not add DAC then they would of been sadly stupid.. (No Offense).

 

Sandbox game like this people are going to sell things for RL money or use RL money to buy things on way or another period. It always happens in MMORPG's but the more sandbox features they have the more this becomes common from my many years of experience. 

 

Rather then having Bob Rob Jr. Taking profits away from NQ it can now be controlled by NQ at least and they can profit from it. Not only that I have not read much on the DAC but they tend to be $5 or so more expensive then a normal direct subscription cost.

 

This is a better method by far. No matte what people will buy/sell with RL money. This way less people get scammed, NQ benefits from it. 

 

It would suck for you to drop out due to a system that is in place for your security and mine. 

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So how to sort this problem out? Remove ALL kind of TRADE! No trade at all! No ways to get resources easy, everything must be fully destructable. No any kind of communication and other. Because of trade and communication - P2W (everyone can buy for real money without the official system. Everyone can buy help for real money). If you don't block it, you support it. And even removing these 2 MAIN features won't guarantee anything.

 

So calling this kind of moan as constructive opinion is wrong.

 

I don't mean to be that guy, but you're kind of perpetuating the problem Anonymous highlighted earlier.

 

In any event, I will say that if you have a problem with the payment model for Dual Universe, you should probably message NQ Nyzaltar directly rather than post it on the forum. A lot of people here have very strong opinions about the topic, which often leads to schisms and people leaving the DU community.

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I don't mean to be that guy, but you're kind of perpetuating the problem Anonymous highlighted earlier.

 

Did I say something wrong? Didn't I explain this "problem" of vision (similar ways of "P2W", as it was called by OP)? Didn't I explained ways how to solve it?

If somebody can not deal with counter-arguments, that mean his/her position is wrong or weak.

 

Is this topic constructive? No, it is not. It does not display any problem (real problem), it does not suggest any kind of improvement, it does not solve anything. I find this thread more as threat and extortion (as was stated by NQ-Nyzaltar). 

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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Did I say something wrong? Didn't I explain this "problem" of vision (similar ways of "P2W", as it was called by OP)? Didn't I explained ways how to solve it?

If somebody can not deal with counter-arguments, that mean his/her position is wrong or weak.

 

Is this topic constructive? No, it is not. It does not display any problem (real problem), it does not suggest any kind of improvement, it does not solve anything. I find this thread more as threat and extortion (as was stated by NQ-Nyzaltar). 

 

Thanks,

Archonious

 

Here's the thing: NQ-Nyzaltar already responded to the OP. The argument was over when he made his post. There's no need to continue arguing about it. Nyzaltar is handling the situation as he sees fit, and no further feedback on the situation would be needed. Perpetuating the argument just drives away the people who see these threads for fear that the DU community is becoming toxic.

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Here's the thing: NQ-Nyzaltar already responded to the OP. The argument was over when he made his post. There's no need to continue arguing about it. Nyzaltar is handling the situation as he sees fit, and no further feedback on the situation would be needed. Perpetuating the argument just drives away the people who see these threads for fear that the DU community is becoming toxic.

 

So as soon anybody of NQ said their word, I can not say my opinion and analyse topic? Was topic closed, NO!

Forum for discussions, arguing, debates and other. If somebody fears open discussion, go in PM.

 

Even if the whole team of NQ will put their word, it means absolutely nothing to stop any other people opinions to be said.

Sorry, but position "You must not say!" is real bullshit.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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So as soon anybody of NQ said their word, I can not say my opinion and analyse topic? Was topic closed, NO!

Forum for discussions, arguing, debates and other. If somebody fears open discussion, go in PM.

 

Even if the whole team of NQ will put their word, it means absolutely nothing to stop any other people opinions to be said.

Sorry, but position "You must not say!" is real bullshit.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

 

I was trying to be subtle about the point I was making, but I suppose I'll just have to spell it out:

 

For the love of Christ, if someone's opinion differs from yours, that does not make them wrong that makes them different. Don't confuse the two. Just because Anonymous views the OP as a constructive opinion does not mean that he is wrong. Just because I think that we should let the devs handle this and that we should have no part in the issue does not make me wrong.

 

I don't mean to be rude, I truly don't. I just feel that you are too quick to label right and wrong, and that creates conflict, conflict breeds hate, and hate shrinks the community.

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I was trying to be subtle about the point I was making, but I suppose I'll just have to spell it out:

 

For the love of Christ, if someone's opinion differs from yours, that does not make them wrong that makes them different. Don't confuse the two. Just because Anonymous views the OP as a constructive opinion does not mean that he is wrong. Just because I think that we should let the devs handle this and that we should have no part in the issue does not make me wrong.

 

I don't mean to be rude, I truly don't. I just feel that you are too quick to label right and wrong, and that creates conflict, conflict breeds hate, and hate shrinks the community.

 

I've said: "So calling this kind of moan as constructive opinion is wrong.". Later I fully explained why it is not constructive at all.

Later I said, "If somebody can not deal with counter-arguments, that mean his/her position is wrong or weak.". The solid position must have "ground under the feet".

 

Once again, what wrong I said?

Sorry, I find continue of this dialog as way aside and substitution of meaning.

 

P.S: Opinion which differs from my could be wrong. And if I think it is wrong and if I write it is wrong, this mean "My opinion, this is wrong!". It is not "My opinion, this is different", it is exactly wrong. Same about anyone else. If you think, I am wrong, then "I am wrong in your opinion". We are explaining our opinions on forums, nothing more. Otherwise, this thread (as many others) could be blocked by "you are too quick to label wrong".

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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Hi ChipPatton and welcome to our forum.
 
There has been indeed a few people on the Kickstarter saying DAC was a "Pay to Win" feature.
We also replied to why it wasn't and why we went for this feature. 
We also agreed that it probably wasn't a perfect model, but it was the best we found until now. 
 
This was our official reply:
 

 

The DAC/PLEX/CREDD system isn't at fault there.
The problem is elsewhere because without this system, the problem remains: it's just hidden.
And it's not because something is hidden that it doesn't exist.
 
The people we got in contact with (probably your officers) turn a complete blind eye on our point of view.
They didn't try to understand our position or even suggest an alternative.
It's always easy to blame or criticize something without trying to come with a better option.
 
In this situation, how could the discussion go anywhere?
Threatening to cancel the pledges (and doing so) won't change the situation either if there no dialog and just threats.
We want to listen to feedbacks from all people interested in our game and take them into account, but without constructive feedback helping to find a good compromise for both sides, it's not possible. Also, while we want to satisfy as much players as possible, We are also aware that we can't satisfy everybody. 
 
In any case, we remain open to discussion if you have more to say on this topic.
 
Best regards,
Nyzaltar.

 

 

I think your reply should be included in the Kickstarter FAQ section.

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my 2 cents

 

If you post something on the forums, expect opposing views to be shared. That's what the forums are for.

If Nyzaltar felt this discussion should be handled via PMs, he would have stated that and locked this thread.

When Nyzaltar feels the opposing responses have turned into detrimental flaming, he will give warnings and lock the thread.

Perhaps he has already deleted offensive threads, so I'm missing the problem.

But, I haven't seen any flaming in the quoted posts.

 

Strong opinions should be fine. That's what the forums are for.

We can try to be helpful by reminding people about tone when an obvious line has been crossed, but really...

Let Nyzaltar handle it is the best solution, there - that's his job.

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Untill i stoped playing, but Crowns from ElderScrolls Online arent tradable, and ingame gold farmers and sellers are pretty inexistant

 

Is ESO a model to get inspiration from?

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If players are the type to be willing to throw a lot of real world money at getting an advantage in a multiplayer game like this, they would always be able to do so anyway, the only games that didn't have gold farmers were the ones where money had limited number of uses. 

 

I don't like it, but I think the "genie is out of the bottle" in that big organisations with serious conflicts and huge amounts of time sunk into building an empire are going to feel pressured to invest real cash DACs or not. I don't see how you can get around that reality, its the high stakes inherent in a game like EVE or DU that incentivises buying an advantage but also the high stakes that makes this game so appealing.

 

I can see from the perspective of it being announced before the game has launched that it looks awfully sketchy but I think it was a pragmatic decision based on seeing how other games like this have gone. At least this way your real life euros or dollars are going to the devs and not the Chinese gold farmers

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So if someone has 1000 Players in their organization should they be banned? I mean 1k people vs 1 person does seem unfair?

 

I mean this OP thing could be torn left and right badly. People need to open their eyes more :P

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Our guild has had a lot of bad experiences with pay to win and models exactly like this, most notably from EVE where we engaged in Alliance v Alliance wars in nullsec.  After the Plex was added to the game we found the wars came down to wallet sizes as ISK (which could be gained by dumping thousands of Plex on the market) meant everything in a war, from hiring allies, to replacing ships and implants.

Let me know if you think this is a derail and I'll start a new thread, but...

 

I joined COPS because I know Kiklix from Landmark. he's a fantastic voxelmancer who specializes in building spaceships and I'm interested sharing the resources I've harvested with him for free to help with his projects. I'm and explorer. I often explore solo. And I'm Chaotic. So, I loved the concept of a loose band of rogue "pirates" who sometimes group together to achieve common goals - not because of the demands of strict rules, but because we want to.

I view COPS as a sci-fi version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

I hope Band of Outlaws will be the same now that COPS has been disbanded due to forum drama.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm wondering why we'd have to hire allies. I don't think Robin Hood had to hire his Merry Men.

I don't think the Rebels in Star Wars had to be hired.

And, I guess I am wondering about looting defeated ships for tech and fuel and looting defeated opponents for implants (maybe we can loot implants and other treasure stored in ship inventory?)

In DU, is in-game money the only way to obtain implants, etc?

I mean, we can build our own ships and harvest our own resources for the materials, so will replacing ships be the same kind of issue it is in Eve?

In a voxel game, does Pay2Win mean the same thing as it does for a non-voxel game like Eve?

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I mean, we can build our own ships and harvest our own resources for the materials, so will replacing ships be the same kind of issue it is in Eve?

In a voxel game, does Pay2Win mean the same thing as it does for a non-voxel game like Eve?

 

The problem is that the ones who pay real money will replace their lost fleet/defenses/forts/whatever in a matter of seconds by using the blueprints and buying the materials directly from the market (well not in seconds, just the ammount of time necessary to pick up and transport the goods from the market to the target destination). However, the less wealthy ones will have to farm first and that will take forever if the destroyed constructs are big and expensive. It can be a game changer if a specific organization has rich members in the real world and the other doesn't and they are at war. 

But yeah, like mentioned before, illegal gold sellers would still be present and the problem would still be there even without the DACs. At least this way NQ can use the legal money to improve the game. 

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I played Eve for 2 months in 2013 and gave up on it afterwards because i felt like it wasn't an exciting enough game to pay for monthly. Same case with WOW. My point is that games have evolved soo much in just a short amount of time, the regular NPC grinding and farming just doesn't cut it for me any more. Dual universe on the other hand is a highly evolved thought of game, that has total immersion into its world something ive been wishing for, for along time.

 

I have no doubt that this game will live to up to its potential and concept. So much to the point that if i could, I would fund the whole 550k for kickstarter if i could afford it in a couple paychecks but we all know that isnt the case lol. Out of all the games out there, this will be the one to make kids break there piggy banks and adults dive into there savings to pay monthly.

 

 I am a proud member of Band of Outlaws, Aye'. And the organization doesn't command us to act or submit, only to be wise.

"Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted"

That is the Universes only certainty.

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