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Price model, SAY NO TO MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTION!

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For the love of god, do not make yet another monthly sub game... There is no legitimate reason to do this... And the only people who defend such a model are gamers with more money than sense, or greedy game developers...

Make it buy to play, with an in-game cash shop with cosmetic and convenience items, like all good MMO's these days do... Its a fair business model, and you will earn what you deserve, based on how good the game is. Which will give you an incentive to improve it further to make more money. You already have a game which is basically Star Citizen/Elite Dangerous meets Space engineers, that already sounds pretty damn good to me... So you would still rake it in cash wise. And bare in mind whenever a good looking game is free/buy to play, knowledge of it spreads through the gaming comunity via word of mouth like a lightning bolt...

Monthly sub business models are only utilized by greedy developers who want nothing more than to exploit and rob the gaming community... The monthly sub needs to go the way of the dinosaur, because there are better business models in existence these days... So please, do not use this business model... I want to play this game when its released, and while I have more than enough money to pay for a sub, I will not do it... But if it was buy to play, with an ingame cash shop, I would buy the game, AND spend money in the cash shop if you gave us interesting worth it items to buy in there...

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There's already numerous threads about this, but NQ has summed up the issue quite well in one of their Devblogs, in which your points are addressed:

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2016/04/08/monetization-player-happiness-and-economic-viability/

 

 

I don't think it's fair to dismiss NQ as "greedy" or those of us who want the P2P model as "gamers with more money than sense", especially given the advantages that P2P games provide (outlined in the aforementioned devblog).

 

The Cash Shop F2P model doesn't work in a game like Dual Universe, nor does it really make sense for a company that wants to see itself as more of a "Tech Company" than a "Content Company". It also doesn't really work in the context of a global single shard server, as there wouldn't really be a fair way to price items across different regions and guarantee enough income to sustain their basic business needs. 

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I can come up with legit reasons for monthly fee (or at least, a buy-to-play model)

1) No  hackounts.

See Planetside 2 and its glorious level 1 wall-walkers and fully unlocked account cheaters.

2) No pay-to-win.

You make a game free-to-play, you need to make money anyway. Would you like to lose PvP wars, because the other side can fight with the most powerful weapon of all, The Majestic Walletron, Carrier of Credit Cards? It's either subscription and no pay-to-win / pay-to-play-the-next-planet.

This game aims for SERIOUSLY enormous proportions. Imagine all WoW servers ON THE SAME SERVER. You know, servers don't run on wishes. I tried ;'( I know. And servers need money, in other words, revenue, which needs to come from some other place than optional things like skins. Paying real cash, for spaceships, would be game-breaking, as the rich would simply roll out starships in PvP like no biggy. Now, I would like for the game to be pay-to-play, but no-sub. I don't like commitments - hat's how my goldfish died - but on the other hand, I don't want for people to log in loaded on cheats and just teleporting around the game. A paid-entry keeps away the cheaters, as these lesser form of humans, tend to be cheap as mothertruckers when it comes to paying for trolling. Perhaps having semi-rare minerals for sale on the market, you know, not REALLY rare, to the point of them being pay-to-obtain being pay-to-win, but rare enough for them to warrent their buying price. In any case, the devs will probably figure out how to monetise the game, AFTER they figured out the gameplay itself. We argueing over the chicken sink while the foundation is being set in here.

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The claims you make about my financial reasoning are false.

 

Cash shops do more damage in terms of content than good. Instead of releasing content for players to explore in game, such as a tailoring class, and making the blueprints to making clothes available in game somehow, you simply whip out the ol' credit / debit card and buy some magic gold coins to buy all the skimpy bikini's and school girl outfits you can handle.

 

For the exact reasons you said about greed is why if the game is either free or buy to play + cash shop is why I'll abandon ship. Voxel building or no voxel building, I wont stand for being nickel and dimed to death anymore, with a subscription at least I know what Im signing on for.

 

If they implement new clothes in such a way, that you could buy the DU "Plex" and convert it to tokens, AND they are permanent blueprints that you can learn for your characters. I might be ok with that. Or allowing players to buy and sell the tokens on a currency exchange in the game. An exclusive real money only cash shop, or BOP one use items, no get out, its 2016 its time for freedom! It's time to drive any company that goes Free to Pay into the ground.

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I appreciate the thought out and logical response. But still... They are a business, and as all businesses do, they want to get as much money out of their clients as possible. Towards this end, businesses are not against fabricating statistics and reasons why the most profitable business model is the best for the game. They also like to use subtle tricks like suggestability, such as putting an image of a thumbs up or thumbs down beside what they want to convince you of... "theres a thumbs up next to it, so it must be the preferable option" is how your inclined to respond on a subconsciou level. Ultimately, Ive always seen buy to play games perform better than pay to play business models. Guild wars 2 has always been doing well, and had the praise of the community, Elite Dangerous, same there... Although the Engineers update has outraged the community... But the devs are addressing the communities feedback and concerns in that, so they are going the right direction.

Another thing I'd like to point out about the "PLEX model", is that it reduces your time in-game to that of work. You're spending a huge chunk of your gametime working to be able to do the same thing next month. It puts people off a game.

 

Buy to play/Free to play models can work for any game... All you have to do is pursue it, work at it until you find a way that works for that game... THe fact these guys arent even attempting it and are just going to go with a sub model, that says it all.

If I was a game developer, every single game I lauched would be lauched with a buy to play business model, and in my forums would be stated that "we are going to try to keep a free buy to play business model for you, but it may not be possible because it may not support the game and(insert other reasons)." And if it was starting to fail, I would update the community stating that we needed to switch.

 

I understand that you may understand and see the reasoning behind their decision, but make no mistake, they are a business, and businesses employ tactics to secure the best deal for themselves. This includes wording and twisting facts to their advantage.

 

As I said, if they wanted to attempt a buy to play model, they could. But they are choosing to not even attempt it.

If elder scrolls online can start with a sub model, and then change to f2p because its failing, then this game could start as buy to play and switch if it fails also. And in all honesty, I expect this to go the same way, they will launch as a sub model, see people arent falling for it, and end up having to switch to free/buy to play. I'll wait until then I think.

 

Again, I appreciate your thought out response, but keep your eyes open to the fact developers are running a business, and will do whatever they can to get more money from players. Even if that means lieing to your face, and trying to come up with reasons to justify why the most expensive method is best.

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Matey, this is not 2004, where people were ignorant of the subscription model. Many a companies have tried thusly and failed miserably.If the company provides something unique and has its own niche in the market, they never reside in fabricated statistics. F2P screams "Our game is shit, we just an endless Skinner's Box and you will pay for the fucking BUTTONS yourself". (Google Operant Conditioning Chamber, you'll see yourself playing mobile gmaes and how you were treated into paying for them).


Pay-2-Play on the other hand, says "our game has value, go look up on youtube and feel the urge to get a spaceship and pvp, or harvet a mountain of materials and build your functional Death Star" which Jean-Christopher Baillie confirmed in the XPGamer's video on youtube that it can be built given time and resources, IN-GAME. 

The thing is, good games are gonna be played, it's up to the devs to make this game enjoyable. If a game is enjoyable and not a choir of farming to play, people wil play it and pay for it. I know so, I paid for WoW for 7.5 years (until they added pandas in the game, fuck those cuddly mothertruckers >_< ).

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One of the dev posts I read said they are planning on P2P, with subs as an option for players who wants to go sub and not P2P. Just like your reasoning for not liking subs, not everyone likes P2P either.

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Anything and everything I had to say about this topic has already been said so I'll just say this. (someone may have already said what I said, in case that is true, my bad)

 

Due to this game being a single server for every single player to play on at the same damn time, I'd like you to picture how much keeping such a server afloat will cost :) Someone has already said this before me, but, with a single pay to play game, the devs get a massive influx of money as the game begins, then that fades just as quickly. I can understand why they chose a monthly fee, this would ensure a constant stream of funds to continue paying for the server AND motivate Devs to continue their great work.

 

In the Devlog posted above I'm pretty sure they also mention that there is going to be an in-game item players can find, craft, or buy that gives you access to an extra month of play time. (for free) In other words, if you're successful at the game, you'll be able to purchase this item using in-game cash every month. Even if you're not successful, you have an entire month to save up.

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Anything and everything I had to say about this topic has already been said so I'll just say this. (someone may have already said what I said, in case that is true, my bad)

 

Due to this game being a single server for every single player to play on at the same damn time, I'd like you to picture how much keeping such a server afloat will cost :) Someone has already said this before me, but, with a single pay to play game, the devs get a massive influx of money as the game begins, then that fades just as quickly. I can understand why they chose a monthly fee, this would ensure a constant stream of funds to continue paying for the server AND motivate Devs to continue their great work.

 

In the Devlog posted above I'm pretty sure they also mention that there is going to be an in-game item players can find, craft, or buy that gives you access to an extra month of play time. (for free) In other words, if you're successful at the game, you'll be able to purchase this item using in-game cash every month. Even if you're not successful, you have an entire month to save up.

 

This gives insentive to play as a banker. Perhaps with quest-like loan bills, putting a spaceship of high value as mortgage. >_> The possibilities are endless, I mean, can you image the meta-commentary if the game's economy went into a recession because one asshat blew up mortgage loans? O.o

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Right they are a business and you don't make money by giving everything away. But the point behind the monthly subscription is not to get your money its so that the developers can spend said money on new things to provide for you... If they are out working at a job other than making this game have new content cause its free to play you 'll never see the new content you're gonna gripe never came out. 

Suck is up buttercup. Pay to play is the way. 

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Most of the things I would have said.... Have been said. Also, WOW and EVE are old mmos. They are both monthly sub. Any other game that I've seen start P2P that goes F2P or is a B2P game practically dies after a year or two.

 

Yes, they are a business, and businesses are created to make money. If this was just a group of people in college, making a game for a project, it would be different. But NQ is made up of people with different educations, who have been planning the game out since 2014. So they have had 2 years at this point to think about their monetization model. 

 

They did say it is still up for discussion in the dev blog. But, you need to think from a business perspective as well as a consumer perspective. You need to think GLOBALLY not LOCALLY. You need to think about what will help protect your product from griefers. IF, you could come up with some ways to allow them a steady flow of cash, for this type of MMO, as well as a way for the community AS A WHOLE to be mostly happy(you can't please everyone), then it would be of benefit. It would, how ever, most likely need to be something that hasn't been done before.

 

I would never spend years of my life making a game, then make it F2P or B2P, then have the community turn their backs on it because people are just making account after account to mess with those who actually want to play.

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For the love of god, do not make yet another monthly sub game... There is no legitimate reason to do this... And the only people who defend such a model are gamers with more money than sense, or greedy game developers...

Make it buy to play, with an in-game cash shop with cosmetic and convenience items, like all good MMO's these days do... Its a fair business model, and you will earn what you deserve, based on how good the game is. Which will give you an incentive to improve it further to make more money. You already have a game which is basically Star Citizen/Elite Dangerous meets Space engineers, that already sounds pretty damn good to me... So you would still rake it in cash wise. And bare in mind whenever a good looking game is free/buy to play, knowledge of it spreads through the gaming comunity via word of mouth like a lightning bolt...

Monthly sub business models are only utilized by greedy developers who want nothing more than to exploit and rob the gaming community... The monthly sub needs to go the way of the dinosaur, because there are better business models in existence these days... So please, do not use this business model... I want to play this game when its released, and while I have more than enough money to pay for a sub, I will not do it... But if it was buy to play, with an ingame cash shop, I would buy the game, AND spend money in the cash shop if you gave us interesting worth it items to buy in there...

 

 

Well technically from everything I've read it's a  light version of Space Engineers meets Eve online with a little bit of No Man Skies mixed in.

It sounds like  if Eve online allowed you to land on planets and build ships it would be this game in my opinion. 

With the whole lock on targeting  weapons systems  Eve uses for combat. I wished they would change the combat mechanics to more of a  Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous because that would be awesome. 

 

I understand the Devs perspective  but I understand yours too.  

 

In my opinion, this business model  sounds logical but the question is will it work in today's environment?.   I won't be surprised if they end up changing the model. Yes sure it worked for some games in the past but it's a different world now.  Every playable game is an Alpha game and is still in development. So DU's competition aren't finished developing their games yet and could easily add more features to their game.  

 

If there weren't so many other voxel base games and space sims that were either out  right now or coming out next year  then I could see this working.  

If I had a choice between   Space Engineers, Emyprion , Planet Nomads,  Star Citizen,  Elite Dangerous, No Man Skies where I can pay for the game once or pay a subscription fee for this game then I can't honestly say I would gives this game a fair chance.  Unless this game really was that good to me but  if its using  EVE's mechanics then for me personally I don't know about a monthly subscription.   Eve has a large fan base so I could see a lot of eve fans flooding into this game but will it be enough to keep the monthly subscription going ?   Hey we will see.  

I do think they should seriously rethink their business model  or they could  end up like WildStar.  Wildstar thought they could release a game in a market with plenty of competition and do a monthly subscription .

After a year, reality kicked in and they changed it.   

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For the love of god, do not make yet another monthly sub game... There is no legitimate reason to do this... And the only people who defend such a model are gamers with more money than sense, or greedy game developers..

 

yes, stupid, greedy devs, how dare they to want a secure income for paying servers and salaries, i mean, if i look for a job i also always take a initial payment thats aproximatly 4-5 months of work worth without a monthly salary, i can do extra work and be payed for that, right? totally legit...

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Greedy bastards, the whole lot. The other day I was out for coffee and the waitress ended up giving me a bill, and there was even this social expectation of a tip flying around the air, can you believe the greed on that one? I bet she was going to pamper herself with rent. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE WORLD?!  Anyway I tried convincing her that they should use a 3rd model of coffee but with less sweatener options for... just the tip... 

 

...But in the unlikely chance this is in anyway applicable to the underlining problem here:

Telling a gossip inclined co-worker  that you want to try your chances at freelancing, apparently can result in your boss giving you a raise and a better contract to convince you not too.

 

(Also, for the more likely underlining problem:

if you are in college there's a good chance you'll be done with it and back in the work force by the time the game comes out).

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Why can't you use a thread about his topic, that is already open, instead of creating a new one?

Why do you have to use caps for the title? If you want visibility, get it by proposing interesting arguments.

Why are you judging devs and players, even insulting them to prove your point?

Why can't you find in the already existing threads the reasons P2P is the best way?

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I'm only going to add this, to this what... 30th thread for pleading to not have P2P....

 

(This is on top of needing money to afford to pay for the servers / development without making it P2W)

 

If this is like Eve-Online...

-you pay for a sub and that pays for your ability to play the game

-you can optionally buy a "token" for more game time you can sell on the IN GAME MARKET...

     -where someone who mined minerals for weeks and sold all of it for in game money bought it and now they can play for free.

     -and now with the money acquired from selling the "Token" you can purchase all the minerals you needed to build that carrier, from that blueprint you have been researching on for months.

 

(With this model people who have more IRL money will be able to acquire in game items and materials faster yes, however this HAD to come from somewhere and WAS NOT JUST SPAWNED IN. Someone else had to do the dirty work or it just doesn't exist. On top of that you may be able to buy that carrier or Dreadnought with all the IRL money you spent.. but if you don't have the training to actually fly the darn thing,  you Cant use it. So only if they spent the time on a character to acquire proper training .. aka all that time spent In the game doing stuff to fairly obtain the ability to fly that ship.. will benefit from the extra player tokens. This is nerf to full P2W ... and NQ is made it clear there will be a character learning type system involved to invest your time in before you can use everything.

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If elder scrolls online can start with a sub model, and then change to f2p because its failing, then this game could start as buy to play and switch if it fails also.

You see that wrong. Switching the model is always a bad move. Do you remember the community outcry when Team Fortress 2 switched to free to play? Also selling the game as "Yo, you can play that stuff for the price of 60 Gold Dubloons, no monthly fee." and then switching to "Please give us 10 Gold Dubloons every month, kthxbye" is considered false advertising AFAIK and can lead to some nasty lawsuits.

I approve of the monthly subscription, because I like to support things that I enjoy. That's why I give some money to Youtubers/Musicians/Whatever via Patreon. I enjoy their work and don't want them to quit just because they don't have time anymore for things that brings them more money in.

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I'm only going to add this, to this what... 30th thread for pleading to not have P2P....

 

(This is on top of needing money to afford to pay for the servers / development without making it P2W)

 

If this is like Eve-Online...

-you pay for a sub and that pays for your ability to play the game

-you can optionally buy a "token" for more game time you can sell on the IN GAME MARKET...

     -where someone who mined minerals for weeks and sold all of it for in game money bought it and now they can play for free.

     -and now with the money acquired from selling the "Token" you can purchase all the minerals you needed to build that carrier, from that blueprint you have been researching on for months.

 

(With this model people who have more IRL money will be able to acquire in game items and materials faster yes, however this HAD to come from somewhere and WAS NOT JUST SPAWNED IN. Someone else had to do the dirty work or it just doesn't exist. On top of that you may be able to buy that carrier or Dreadnought with all the IRL money you spent.. but if you don't have the training to actually fly the darn thing,  you Cant use it. So only if they spent the time on a character to acquire proper training .. aka all that time spent In the game doing stuff to fairly obtain the ability to fly that ship.. will benefit from the extra player tokens. This is nerf to full P2W ... and NQ is made it clear there will be a character learning type system involved to invest your time in before you can use everything.

Exactly. All of what you said and more. Game Developers cannot just create a game that everyone wants. If that was possible then the game market would be full of amazing games. (Well, more amazing games). There has to be a fine line between realism and fun. Think Space Engineer's Planets. Everyone wants a realistic sized planet to play with. What the server wants, however, is a raise.

 

 

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For the love of god, do not make yet another monthly sub game... There is no legitimate reason to do this... And the only people who defend such a model are gamers with more money than sense, or greedy game developers...

Make it buy to play, with an in-game cash shop with cosmetic and convenience items, like all good MMO's these days do... Its a fair business model, and you will earn what you deserve, based on how good the game is. Which will give you an incentive to improve it further to make more money. You already have a game which is basically Star Citizen/Elite Dangerous meets Space engineers, that already sounds pretty damn good to me... So you would still rake it in cash wise. And bare in mind whenever a good looking game is free/buy to play, knowledge of it spreads through the gaming comunity via word of mouth like a lightning bolt...

Monthly sub business models are only utilized by greedy developers who want nothing more than to exploit and rob the gaming community... The monthly sub needs to go the way of the dinosaur, because there are better business models in existence these days... So please, do not use this business model... I want to play this game when its released, and while I have more than enough money to pay for a sub, I will not do it... But if it was buy to play, with an ingame cash shop, I would buy the game, AND spend money in the cash shop if you gave us interesting worth it items to buy in there...

 

Please list us some "Good MMO"s" that are either free to play or buy once play forever... Enlighten us.

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Please list us some "Good MMO"s" that are either free to play or buy once play forever... Enlighten us.

Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Aion, Tera.  Though the player base for Lineage 2 and Aion are almost entirely in Asia now.

 

Forgot ESO.

Edited by Wardion2000

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Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Aion, Tera.  Though the player base for Lineage 2 and Aion are almost entirely in Asia now.

Games that are all 2D maps about fantasy and RPG, Perhaps a niche such as a FPSRPG4X Empire builder as DU would not benefit from the payment models of those fantasy games where you can buy cloths from cash shops. DU in my opinion is trying to be above this entire concept. 

 

Players make all the content in an emergent way, All that the NovaQuark team does is provide the back drop (a Seamless Procedural Science fiction galaxy) and the tools (crafting, Loot, Constructions, AI, Resources etc) But all the creative work is done by the players and the backdrop depends on the empires or groups that play in the game. 

 

 

 

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except for 

 

Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Aion, Tera.  Though the player base for Lineage 2 and Aion are almost entirely in Asia now.

 

Forgot ESO.

 

except for gw each one of those was subscription-based in the beginning, wich definitely played a big role in their initial earnings and development.

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Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Aion, Tera.  Though the player base for Lineage 2 and Aion are almost entirely in Asia now.

 

Forgot ESO.

Bruh, you know that Lineage 2 has a bajillion private servers that are Pay-2-Win right? I know so, I ran a server in europe and guys donated money to get free gear.

 

Guild Wars 2 ? Yeah, it's Buy2Play bruh. Guild Wars 2 is NOT free. Aion is shit. Tera is a joke nowadays.

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Games that are all 2D maps about fantasy and RPG, Perhaps a niche such as a FPSRPG4X Empire builder as DU would not benefit from the payment models of those fantasy games where you can buy cloths from cash shops. DU in my opinion is trying to be above this entire concept. 

 

Players make all the content in an emergent way, All that the NovaQuark team does is provide the back drop (a Seamless Procedural Science fiction galaxy) and the tools (crafting, Loot, Constructions, AI, Resources etc) But all the creative work is done by the players and the backdrop depends on the empires or groups that play in the game. 

How is this?   Relevant to my response to this? 

 

Please list us some "Good MMO"s" that are either free to play or buy once play forever... Enlighten us.

 

"Enlighten us" indeed.  If what you really want is a debate or to state an opinion.  Alright, I'll bite.

 

If the debate is whether or not F2P can apply then yes, "Perhaps" such a niche would not benefit from said payment model.  All that matters are the numbers, and the numbers are saying they need monthly payments or an equivalent system like PLEX.  But because they are "Games that are all 2D maps about fantasy and RPG." isn't an actual reason why it wouldn't. No other MMO covers DU's scope so no fair comparisons can really be made in that respect.

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Bruh, you know that Lineage 2 has a bajillion private servers that are Pay-2-Win right? I know so, I ran a server in europe and guys donated money to get free gear.

 

Guild Wars 2 ? Yeah, it's Buy2Play bruh. Guild Wars 2 is NOT free. Aion is shit. Tera is a joke nowadays.

Lineage 2 still has a large loyal following on the public realms and makes money.  Aion is unpopular in Europe and America for its grind but liked and has a large player base in Asia for the exact same reason and makes money.  Guild Wars 2 DOES require account purchase, but is buy once play forever and therefore fits OnePercent's criteria.  It has a large player base and makes money.

Tera has always been a joke in some way.  It still has a large player base and makes money.  Stating that people make Lineage 2 P2W on their own private server.  How is that relevant?  It's a PRIVATE server.  

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