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Elephant in the room: PVP in DU = Pay to win


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On 4/20/2022 at 8:48 PM, RugesV said:

Don't distort the pay2win tag. While I don't disagree that having multiple accounts has some big advantages. It's a far cry froming being able to buy premium ammo that's better then you get in game.

Is this now going to be a discussion of when p2w is bad or not?
where does p2w start? From an advantage? a large advantage? Advantage over other players, even if you only play for yourself? Advantage in the endgame, when there is no traditional endgame at all?
he fact is, almost every game can allow advantages through multiple accounts. In the case of DualUniverse, however, these things are already significant, simultaneous and, depending on the playstyle, completely irrelevant, depending on what a player does with them.

- 150,000 Quanta Login Bonus
- MiningUnits maximum calibrations 50/50
- transport mission packages in one piece, instead of only one max 9,5m/package
- more connected areas and consequently more percentages for MiningUnitsBonuses 10-60%
- in PvP control several ships equipped with weapons, instead of only one 
- unlock more coreslots 200/200 (to be able to build more, although there is a limit per player)
- more independence in skill order (players could achieve complete autarky)
- ...

 

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47 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

Is this now going to be a discussion of when p2w is bad or not?
where does p2w start? From an advantage? a large advantage? Advantage over other players, even if you only play for yourself? Advantage in the endgame, when there is no traditional endgame at all?
he fact is, almost every game can allow advantages through multiple accounts. In the case of DualUniverse, however, these things are already significant, simultaneous and, depending on the playstyle, completely irrelevant, depending on what a player does with them.

- 150,000 Quanta Login Bonus
- MiningUnits maximum calibrations 50/50
- transport mission packages in one piece, instead of only one max 9,5m/package
- more connected areas and consequently more percentages for MiningUnitsBonuses 10-60%
- in PvP control several ships equipped with weapons, instead of only one 
- unlock more coreslots 200/200 (to be able to build more, although there is a limit per player)
- more independence in skill order (players could achieve complete autarky)
- ...

 

 

multi accounts is not pay 2 win
its pay to progress faster, and does not hurt anyone, its common and no one cares about it


multi accounts + dual clients is real actual pay to win when we talk about PVP

you are alone or in small group facing dual client single player or group
you cannot not win, but you ll 100% loose everything you spent long long time to build and gather
no matter you are full pvp talents + t5 grade voxels
they will always have double of your fire power

dual client = double fire power per player = pay 2 win

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18 minutes ago, Jeronimo said:

multi accounts is not pay 2 win

 

...And here is where I disagree .

Multi accounts IS pay to win.

A new player with only one account can replace his pvp ship (in case of a loss)  in a week with missions for example where a new player with 10 accounts can replace his ship in half a day .

A new player with only one account will go out to pvp cause of talents in a year or so where a new player with 10 accounts will go out in a couple of weeks ? 

Also depth of fight is not the same. A new player with one account will fight for 1 hour and then next week and a new player with 10 accounts will fight for months until ammo - fuel - warp cells run out.

 

My example goes for a new player . 

If you have farmed for a couple of years with 10 accounts and then you switch to 1 account its not the same.

 

 

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12 hours ago, blazemonger said:

unless you have several separate PCs

Several PCs isn't a stretch in this day and age and free services provided by GeforceNow allow you to run two clients on a single PC. You might even be able to run several GeforceNow clients on a single machine with VMs...

 

I agree that a LOT of the stuff I mentioned can be done by several people in a corp, but those people want a share of the loot. You don't have to share the loot with the multiple personalities you create when running alts... 😉

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10 hours ago, Habitant said:

...And here is where I disagree .

I don't disagree with your take on that it's some form of p2w.

 

How do you feel about me taking a week of work to play DU, so I'm 'paying' a weeks salary to play more DU and get an advantage. Now I totally see people actually arguing that when you don't get something, you don't pay for it... So let me take the correct approach: As an employee I would get a bonus in money that I could get payed out to my bank account or buy additional vacation days with (this is quite common here). If I buy those vacation days, and use them to play more DU, is that p2w?

 

Now also think about the situation where multi account isn't allowed, that would impact the people who care about what NQ says is allowed and what is not. But the people that don't care about that, would totally have a huge advantage then. Just like what is now happening in pvp, people who cheat have a huge advantage over those that can't.

 

But imho this discussion is totally MOOT, because during the KS it was already apparent that NQ was going for a p2w model, with DAC. Even if multi account isn't allowed, people still can buy DAC and sell it for ingame stuff. That is direct p2w! In a game like EVE Online that really doesn't matter. Does it matter in DU though?

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A year to get into pvp? Only takes 7 days to skill ammo, radar, 1 m weapon type. Up to lvl 3 on everything.  Now all things equal yea that max skilled player is going to Beat the lvl 3 guy everytime. But if you spend several more weeks to months training up specific skills you can become competitive with max skilled players. 

 

Pay2win is buying premium ammo that you spend rl money that is bet5er than can be gotten ingame. Pay2win is buying the best loadout with real money without having to play tge game to get it.

 

Multi accounts is dual boxing. And if you said DU is so dual boxy. I would have said yes, yes it is. 

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I always thought P2W meant paying for something that was unavailable in game, like special weapons or armor which can only be got by payments.
 

I understand the concept that having two accounts brings with it advantages, but I don’t think that is P2W as such. 
 

if that were the case then we could also define P2W to include anyone who has paid a year of subs and queued up their skills diligently as they will have an advantage over a noob since they’ve paid for 12 months of XP. That’s obviously not P2W but money paid has created an actual, tangible advantage. 
 

Of course people are free to mean anything they want when they say something: like the word theory being mixed up with hypothesis in the context of the existence of gravity by flat earthers.

 

But using proprietary definitions just muddies the waters and detracts from the communication. 

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4 hours ago, RugesV said:

A year to get into pvp? Only takes 7 days to skill ammo, radar, 1 m weapon type. Up to lvl 3 on everything.

Ah yeah , I was meant a player who is a bit more trained like more piloting skills , some mining for some extra income ,maybe a bit industry , and some basic other talents.

But yeah lvl 3 in 7days is what it takes. Maybe lvl 1 in a few minutes . why not . And if you are in a good org you get your handling buffs .

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3 hours ago, Habitant said:

Ah yeah , I was meant a player who is a bit more trained like more piloting skills , some mining for some extra income ,maybe a bit industry , and some basic other talents.

But yeah lvl 3 in 7days is what it takes. Maybe lvl 1 in a few minutes . why not . And if you are in a good org you get your handling buffs .

 

5 hours ago, Jinxed said:

I always thought P2W meant paying for something that was unavailable in game, like special weapons or armor which can only be got by payments.
 

I understand the concept that having two accounts brings with it advantages, but I don’t think that is P2W as such. 
 

if that were the case then we could also define P2W to include anyone who has paid a year of subs and queued up their skills diligently as they will have an advantage over a noob since they’ve paid for 12 months of XP. That’s obviously not P2W but money paid has created an actual, tangible advantage. 
 

Of course people are free to mean anything they want when they say something: like the word theory being mixed up with hypothesis in the context of the existence of gravity by flat earthers.

 

But using proprietary definitions just muddies the waters and detracts from the communication. 

 

8 hours ago, RugesV said:

A year to get into pvp? Only takes 7 days to skill ammo, radar, 1 m weapon type. Up to lvl 3 on everything.  Now all things equal yea that max skilled player is going to Beat the lvl 3 guy everytime. But if you spend several more weeks to months training up specific skills you can become competitive with max skilled players. 

 

Pay2win is buying premium ammo that you spend rl money that is bet5er than can be gotten ingame. Pay2win is buying the best loadout with real money without having to play tge game to get it.

 

Multi accounts is dual boxing. And if you said DU is so dual boxy. I would have said yes, yes it is. 



guys sop focusing on multi account!!!!
1) its pay to win "time", pay to progess faster
2) it doesnt hurt anyone
3) this is uncontrollable by NQ, and it brings them more sub/money, so there is no chance they regulate it
4) in so many other mmo out there its also the case

so main problem there is dual client for multi account users
dual client = 1 player can play 2 accounts at same time on same PC using regular client + a geforcenow client
and where does that hurt DU the most? in PVP

because in pvp give those players advantage to control 1 ship with 2 pvp seats, so double number of guns, so double fire power, controled with 1 single hand

so there is no chance to remove geforcenow, too many regular players rely only on that

PVP mechanics must be improved by NQ to rebalance dual clients and give EVERYONE same chance in PVP

 

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OK, so I saw this thread and it triggered me a bit.  I can't help thinking that anyone who thinks DU PvP is P2win either:
 

- hasn't actually done any PvP in DU

- is bad at PvP and is making excuses

- has no friends to PvP with

 

Having done PvP using two acounts and posessing a mediocre amount of skill I can attest that it's a lot harder to use 2 accounts than one and when you lose you usually lose to either a bigger group or someone who is better at PvP.  Actual fights where you are fighting against an opponent of equal skill with a comparable setup but who has an extra set of guns and a second account are so rare as to come under the 'in open world PvP sometimes you get unlucky and lose' category.

 

Convince me I'm wrong ...

 

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You are not wrong..

In a situation where one player multiboxes multiple characters goes up against a group of players who communicate with each other, the player group will always have the upper hand.

And yes, is you make these accusations or assumptions, it seems you really have not actually done any multiboxing in DU and probably just translate the way that works in EVE to DU, which is completely different. Your opinion is based on hearsay, not on first-hand experience and with that, is pretty much void.

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The active player base is probably 25 guys each with multiple accounts.  Banning alternate accounts would shrink the player base by multiples.  In the end, arguments about multiple accounts, or wipe vs no wipe are pointless.  The game is destined to be still born on release and thus all this angst around such issues will be rendered moot.

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1 hour ago, Kruzer said:

The active player base is probably 25 guys each with multiple accounts.  Banning alternate accounts would shrink the player base by multiples.  In the end, arguments about multiple accounts, or wipe vs no wipe are pointless.  The game is destined to be still born on release and thus all this angst around such issues will be rendered moot.

Yeah, to be honest, a good chunk of us are just on other alt accounts in the forum RPing with ourselves and the other 25 people here.

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25 active players (concurrent) would seem about right.
My longest stretch has been four months without seeing a single other player. At all. 
including during that time visits to Freeport and Utopia station MP7 (or was it 6, the supposedly busy one surrounded by hair towers that sells literally everything) on Alioth and I think MP1 on Thades (the one on the edge of the crevice that sells space engines and tanks below cost). 
 

I think with the current player base, even one planet the size Alioth would last forever. 

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Bigger elephant in the room: combat sucks in DU in general...who even cares if it is P2W, it isn't very fun even if it were fair (it can't be fair no matter how they tweak the stats or control alts, that's an inherent part of asymmetrical open world combat). 

 

Regardless of balance or the frustrations of an "unfair" loss, you could give every new player an infinitely respawning combat ship and still most people wouldn't find combat interesting enough to PvP often...because even on a basic mechanical level, it just isn't very interesting. 

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The fact is that two player characters will always be more powerful then one, four will always be more powerful then two.  
 

the question is do we want NQ attempting to figure out whether there are one or two pairs of hands in the room?

 

in my opinion any attempt at that would be super invasive and creepy.  
 

So what else is NQ supposed to do about it?

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On 4/24/2022 at 4:41 AM, Zeddrick said:

- hasn't actually done any PvP in DU

- is bad at PvP and is making excuses

- has no friends to PvP with

Well... I didn't have much of a choice... Now had I! I have done involuntary PVP in DU! 😉

 

Heck yes! I'm bad at PVP, but no excuses about that, I suck at PVP! But I am decent at math and math tells me that unless I bring a far larger fleet or way more guns/armor. I'm not going to win from a fully skilled level 5 combat pilot.

 

What is this 'friends' thing you talk about, can we buy that in the NQ store?

 

In games like DU and EVE I'm more of a builder, trader, explorer, miner. I'll shoot another player if I absolutely have to. But beyond that, life and let life. In EVE I only won when I flew a weird arse fit that didn't fit in the meta and pirates where dumbfounded (and their fits didn't work as expected). In DU I don't even bother equipping my ships with guns. I did do some math on it and I didn't get happy with what I found. Then the meta changed again and the whole pvp thing was fixed in one direction, but a mess in the other (fitting guns on haulers wise). Later patches didn't improve matters at all...

 

I prefer my pilots to be level 5 in all the practical flying skills first, now actually starting to look at the combat skills (after 10 months of skilling)... By Handling character (placement for ships) still has a couple months to go before touching radar/weapons...

 

I'm primarily a solo player, and being a good little boy, I haven't touched pvp with multiple accounts. No workarounds via Geforce Now, etc. I really hope NQ changes it's stance on multiple accounts in pvp after wipe/launch, because as a solo player you can't compete unless you also cheat!

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