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Why i Leave DU


Chorum
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Hi,

i write this because i believe in constructive criticism. 

 

DU was my big hope in terms of an MMO. I loved the integrated Systems and thought it would go into the right direction.

I payed even if i stopped playing for some months, because i believed that will be the new kind of MMO.

 

But now i want to discribe my Gameplay in DU as a Casual Gamer with an 9 to 5 job:

 

Any Production - gone, its to expensive and cheaper to buy stuff from big corps

Mining - I do mining to pay my taxes. I need to mine low Tier Ore , because in not secured space my ship will be destroyed and robbed.

Calibrating - it forces me to calibrate my MU for what reason? Game Economy? nope there are no costs. so only to steal my time and generate Server load.

Asteroid Mining for a Casual Gamer ? No clue .. didnt try it yet, if it takes hours then possible not a casual gamestyle.

Traveling - need to fly without warp, because it would be to expensive and i need to farm more for my taxes, so 4hours for a trip in one direction ...

Nice gameplay .. perhaps a mini game like calibration for that flight to prevent afk flying? that would be nice. thats value play time ....

 

My Conclusion :

 

I do Mining, Calibration and flying around to pay my taxes and stuff. around 80% of my playtime.

i have some fun to build a ship but thats only a small part of my playtime because my time is limited. and if i had to work 80 % of that time for my taxes, there isnt much left.

 

If DU will stay on that course, there will be a hand full of big corps and some pirates. nothing for new players to stay for. 

and for what will the playerbase stay in the game? Story , discoveries and stuff ? Nope...

 

The Game seams to get the playstile of be a wheel in a big corp. Do what is nessessary for the Corp to get the benefits. 

 

thats like real life work in a game ...

 

i lost my ship with ore for my taxes today , that was the drop of water that makes the vase overflow.

 

bye

Chorum

 

 

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20 hours ago, Chorum said:

The Game seams to get the playstyle of be a wheel in a big corp. Do what is necessary for the Corp to get the benefits. 

Yes because Orgs can outcompete a solo player in pretty much every section apart from creative things such as ship building and voxelwork. This game is based on civilization building and players organizing together. You can of course play solo but it will be hard - which I see you already experienced.

Your criticism is just "game hard when alone" and half the things you mention are new player mistakes such as going into pvp space without shields/radar or a clue what a pipe is.

C ya

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23 hours ago, Chorum said:

Hi,

i write this because i believe in constructive criticism. 

 

DU was my big hope in terms of an MMO. I loved the integrated Systems and thought it would go into the right direction.

I payed even if i stopped playing for some months, because i believed that will be the new kind of MMO.

 

But now i want to discribe my Gameplay in DU as a Casual Gamer with an 9 to 5 job:

 

Any Production - gone, its to expensive and cheaper to buy stuff from big corps

Mining - I do mining to pay my taxes. I need to mine low Tier Ore , because in not secured space my ship will be destroyed and robbed.

Calibrating - it forces me to calibrate my MU for what reason? Game Economy? nope there are no costs. so only to steal my time and generate Server load.

Asteroid Mining for a Casual Gamer ? No clue .. didnt try it yet, if it takes hours then possible not a casual gamestyle.

Traveling - need to fly without warp, because it would be to expensive and i need to farm more for my taxes, so 4hours for a trip in one direction ...

Nice gameplay .. perhaps a mini game like calibration for that flight to prevent afk flying? that would be nice. thats value play time ....

 

My Conclusion :

 

I do Mining, Calibration and flying around to pay my taxes and stuff. around 80% of my playtime.

i have some fun to build a ship but thats only a small part of my playtime because my time is limited. and if i had to work 80 % of that time for my taxes, there isnt much left.

 

If DU will stay on that course, there will be a hand full of big corps and some pirates. nothing for new players to stay for. 

and for what will the playerbase stay in the game? Story , discoveries and stuff ? Nope...

 

The Game seams to get the playstile of be a wheel in a big corp. Do what is nessessary for the Corp to get the benefits. 

 

thats like real life work in a game ...

 

i lost my ship with ore for my taxes today , that was the drop of water that makes the vase overflow.

 

bye

Chorum

 

 

 

Im sorry but I think you started this game, wanted to get rich in 1 day and when that didnt happen you decided to abandon the game. A thing a read a lot here on the forums, written by new players who barely played a month. Maybe these people should search for more information about the product they are buying instead of just jumping in and afterwards complain about the game.

Cant say im gonna miss these new players who come into a game and when they are not top of the list within a week, they quit.

 

I have been a solo player for 16 months, been into the pvp zone only once and I warped. Got my sanct tile and a space base.

Easy playing as a solo player, but some people are not satisfied unless they rank among the highest.

 

 

AND WHY DO PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT TAXES DO NOT JUST BUILD A SPACESTATION THAT IS TAX-FREE????

I can go for weeks on my station, just building stuff. Only fly off to get some market items or do missions to make some money. It wont get you rich but it does give you fun gametime instead of doing the chores for taxpayement.

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Solo/Duo newb here, 3 months in. I know The taxes are a real stumbling block for someone who doesn’t have their feet under them yet, but the daily login bonus by itself covers one tile. bought our MUs one or two at a time.
 

Demeter definitely changed my plans, no more earthworming for easy $$. So I’m not doing industry. I actually took over an abandoned factory, but I don’t see ever having the ore input needed to run it -but that’s another story.

 

My wife and I play together and have mining units on 6 tiles. I work 40-50 hours most weeks, sometimes more. No problem keeping up with calibration,paying rents out of it, and still getting my building itch scratched. The teamwork helps, makes it more fun for sure, but my point is that it’s not slavery, and you don’t need an org to have fun in this game.

 

I think maybe you had unrealistic expectations and got disappointed by them. It does suck to see how people used to get rich off easy mining and realize you aren’t going that route, but there’s still plenty of opportunity -just a longer windup to it now.

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7 hours ago, Hecticus said:

I think maybe you had unrealistic expectations and got disappointed by them. It does suck to see how people used to get rich off easy mining and realize you aren’t going that route, but there’s still plenty of opportunity -just a longer windup to it now.

What does unrealistic expectations mean?
The game itself didn't want to offer rules per se, but to give players complete freedom in how to play DualUniverse. complete player-driven economy and co. There were no schematics or taxes, so you didn't need Quanta, but had to trade with players yourself. No matter if a ship or a voxel template, you just paid in ores. What was good about the system? Exactly, you could dig up ores whenever you wanted. There was no time limit neither in hours, days or weekly cycle. You could just log in and play.

Currently, however, in order to play, you have to play some mandatory content, unless you mine your previous possessions and move back to Sanctuary. Alternatively, you mark your territories as HQs, but then you can't use the industry without owing taxes. Meaning, without these mandatory contents, one's game is slowed down tremendously, worse, once you enter the hamster wheel, you have to run, run, run or you go back for a break to recover.

At the moment, if you want to play relaxed, just stay on sanctuary, set up your 4-5 MiningUnits there and build what you want with T1, you also manage to exchange T1 for other T-ore at the market. However, everything then in very slow play. I think a lot of players are now just bothered that a bit of that freedom has been taken away from them that drew you into the game in the beginning.

 

Edited by Zarcata
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43 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

What does unrealistic expectations mean?
The game itself didn't want to offer rules per se, but to give players complete freedom in how to play DualUniverse. complete player-driven economy and co. There were no schematics or taxes, so you didn't need Quanta, but had to trade with players yourself. No matter if a ship or a voxel template, you just paid in ores. What was good about the system? Exactly, you could dig up ores whenever you wanted. There was no time limit neither in hours, days or weekly cycle. You could just log in and play.

Currently, however, in order to play, you have to play some mandatory content, unless you mine your previous possessions and move back to Sanctuary. Alternatively, you mark your territories as HQs, but then you can't use the industry without owing taxes. Meaning, without these mandatory contents, one's game is slowed down tremendously, worse, once you enter the hamster wheel, you have to run, run, run or you go back for a break to recover.

At the moment, if you want to play relaxed, just stay on sanctuary, set up your 4-5 MiningUnits there and build what you want with T1, you also manage to exchange T1 for other T-ore at the market. However, everything then in very slow play. I think a lot of players are now just bothered that a bit of that freedom has been taken away from them that drew you into the game in the beginning.

 

This might be true for a lot of us (certainly for me), but doesnt apply to the topic creators complaint about leaving.

How I read his/her post is that this is a new player who is suprised that he/she got shot at in the pvp zone.

 

I have a space station, I started it in April and just got finished in November. And that was just the plain light grey aluminium build. No decorations or nice colours. Things in this game take time and I see a lot of post from newbs that do not have the patience for this, or didn't take this in account.

How I read these complaints, is that they thought it was going too slow and wanted a boost in revenue and got out into the pvp zone to mine valuable ore. Then they got shot and now they're even further back than square one because they lost their (only) ship.

 

And now with the tax system en MU's you got to have even more patience before you finally get where you wanted to go.

 

If you enter this game in demeter and think this is the game from September 2020, than you are well misinformed.

 

I like DU but if I found out about this game only 2 weeks ago or something, I would look at some tube videos (including the complaints), visit the forums and would eventually not even try this game. As it has no demo or skidrow version to try it out.

 

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Ehh...

 

Him being killed was as he said so himself, just the drop that made the bucket overflow. Did you all just skip reading most of the post where he details all the problems and why he is leaving?

 

Fact is that 0.23 made many players leave, and everything points to Demeter having the same effect. And no amount of putting blame on players and saying 'git gud' is going to save this game.

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On 1/15/2022 at 11:03 AM, Chorum said:

The Game seams to get the playstile of be a wheel in a big corp. Do what is nessessary for the Corp to get the benefits. 

 

thats like real life work in a game ...

That's not even how real-life works! In real-life, you contribute to a company because you are a stakeholder.

 

Employees get paid = they are stakeholders.

 

Applicants and employers negotiate the term of employment and both has to sign the contract of agreement before one becomes an employee. And you cannot just fire stakeholders (contributors) for no reason without negotiating the severance. If you want to terminate their employment (which has been signed into contract) without reason of misconduct, you have to negotiate their severance which they are entitled to.

 

Individuals have their own equity and nobody will assert it but themselves. In this world, you do not get what you deserve; you get what you negotiated for and asserted for! Nobody will represent yourself but yourself! It is an equitable system, not a collective system! A person has to take into account their own equity! You do not contribute to an org all for the benefit of the org (which does not physically exists) benefiting only the people in power within that org!

 

Employees do not get paid = they are slaves. 

 

This is what I meant when I called this a communist socialist game! It is a collective system rather than an equitable one!

 

Look at what I proposed--damn it NQ!--about formalizing contracts. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing! 

 

The truth is--aside from Eve Online--I have never seen an MMORPG like this where you are forced to work together with other people and share your resources. You cannot protect equity without judiciary. It is the same as a corporate system in real-life but with no way to protect equity.

 

The least we can do is to formalize the irrevocable MoU/MoA in the game itself.

The best thing we can do is to make the game a putting-out economy (cottage economy) like every typical MMO like Runescape. You want a corporate economy (factory system/industry system) with no way to protect equity? How does that work? It is a f*cking communist socialist game!

 

It is a free market, so what?! How do I protect my equity if I am going to share my resources and contribute to the group? 

I have no problem cooperating! How do I protect my equity? That is the question! You contribute with no personal stake, are you serious? You contribute because you have personal stake! 

 

This game has nothing to protect personal equity and it forces you to trust other people and work together! Just make this a putting-out game like every other game, it is as simple as that! That works and it's been proven to work for MMOs and this concept that you took from Eve does not work! Look at Eve! Just f*cking look at it! It is a far left game! 

 

You want free market capitalism? "Capital" means "equity"! How do I protect my equity? If you can't reinforce that, you can't call this a "capitalist game"! It is a far left game!  

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I'm the person who proposed having a system of accountability when it comes to working in a group to make it equitable to stakeholders. You wanna know what the people here said? They don't want to go through that work, they just want to structure and operate with no bureaucratic process. I agree with them, it is a lot of work and it can be complicated! Nobody wants to have a system of accountability in a game! The problem is organizations need it for equitability to stakeholders. You don't want to go through that process? Then you can't have an organization that is equitable! What you want is to just physically plan like the far left!

 

Solution is to remove the corporate gameplay and make it a putting-out game like all MMORPGs where you work for your own equity on your own! Make the game non group-based! If you can't follow a corporate process, if it is too hard and tedious for a game, then remove it! The problem is you wanna keep it and it is not equitable! Imagine working with people and contributing to the organization as a stakeholder while not having any system of accountability, how do I know if the organization is being fair to me? 

 

The real-life model doesn't work in the game because it is missing components in real-life that makes it work. How about we look at conventional typical model that already works and is common in MMORPGs? How about the putting-out system? How about the character-centric gameplay? All MMOs are like that! It's like you want to put the power lines underground and you can't maintain them! There are things in life that is conventional, what is wrong with that? If you have to walk to get to somewhere that is 2 blocks away, the best solution is the conventional solution which is to walk there, not build an LRT just to get there! 

 

What is wrong with you people?! Lockheed Martin has this concept of a robotic spider leg to mobilize their SAMs. There are things already that we call wheels and tracks that is so conventional and they work effectively. Buy a Tatra truck and put the SAM in there! Are you finding this complicated? You will build a Metal Gear robot that will carry the SAM?

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There's a rule in game design about how it is rarely the player's fault when they fail. 

 

You can criticize someone for not knowing what "the pipe" is (assuming the OP flew the pipe, they didn't say) -- but it's the game's job to communicate knowledge and feedback. The idea that everyone that wants to play a game ought to first research it is odd and not how consumers or gamers work. The game should communicate everything you need to know to play within the game.

 

A new player shouldn't automatically know about flying the pipe -- if/when they fail, the game should surface feedback to explain why they failed. That's basic game design fundamentals. If someone has to come here and research to understand what they did wrong, that's a rather large failure of game design...which, to be fair, NQ's game barely even has a design anymore. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Eternal said:

If you want to terminate their employment (which has been signed into contract) without reason of misconduct, you have to negotiate their severance which they are entitled to.

 

There are a lot of countries where employers can fire emploees at will with pretty much no reason. Contracts that prevent it are a double-edged sword. Employees are bound to them as well and can't terminate it within a given cancelling period without penalty. Implementing such real-world mechanics into an MMORPG would not only turn players into org slaves but also prevent them from leaving the org whenever they want. Thus, be careful what you ask for.

 

I actually don't see the problem. Check the reputation of an org before you join and if you feel treated unfairly than leave it. It's simple as that.

 

And in regards to your obsession with socialism/communism: What you ask for is irl reather typical for socialist countries.

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It is an issue, I lended my alt to somebody I know IRL and even though I've known him since preschool and we have contact regularily, it was awful and unmanagable.

 

I'd give him what he needed to progress every time he found himself in front of an obstacle, he'd rip out all the elements, build something less functional for 3 days, try his luck once at what he wanted to do, and then either decide it was beneath him or waste another week on a crappy method. Like the guy was convinced he'd be mining faster if he first carved a tunnel grid into the tile, spent easily like 2 days tunneling before he turned his scanner on once... And thus I watched him fail upwards, and just kept providing him with more stuff, and more RDMS priviledges he kept constantly whining for instead of using the [filtered]ing game mechanism I tried to teach him for once.

One day I show up and he basically helped himself for about 800kl ore... That is after allready having splurged every quanta he ever made when we split up bounty. Yup after he spent his, he started taking my half. Allways for projects stupider than the one before too, the guy had never hauled more than 300t and was sinking his ressources in a dynamic L core that filled out the whole space of the core, by the time I kicked him out of my account. Honestly I tolerate him bc I know him IRL, but it's really impressive how imperveous he is to advice and how talented he is to allways try the worst method first, which compounds into something truely awful because he can stick with something for years if it half worked once, and keep blaming it on the cirumstances if doesn't work when it shouldn't. Skilled all my talents to lvl3 too, even the ones I have at 5 on my main, he was just too special for any kind specialisation or planning ahead..

 

So yeah we need something beyond RDMS and the mere trust that participants will hold their end of the bargain. Noobs risk to be exploited, orgs risk to have monitor their members constantly.

 

At the moment we could like, gate certain zones, with double airlocks that assure there is allways just one person per lane, then transfer unit what they bring or get, out and into the lane, let LUA track the whole thing... But omitting the design and programming challenges of theftproof member bays... So what you happen to request 400kl you need to either stay in "decontamination shower" until the transfer unit is done or have a superlegate present?! Sure we could do loads of bookkeeping via LUA, but that's like a full-on programming job, and not the most fun at that, and you might still hit some hard walls.

 

So there are ways, but it's far from optimal, or even feasible for many players that are not programmers... There should be way, way easier solutions that don't require extensive knowledge of LUA, human ressources, and building an out-of-bonds glitchfree base.

 

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1 hour ago, Overstimuloredom said:

It is an issue, I lended my alt to somebody I know IRL and even though I've known him since preschool and we have contact regularily, it was awful and unmanagable.

 

I'd give him what he needed to progress every time he found himself in front of an obstacle, he'd rip out all the elements, build something less functional for 3 days, try his luck once at what he wanted to do, and then either decide it was beneath him or waste another week on a crappy method. Like the guy was convinced he'd be mining faster if he first carved a tunnel grid into the tile, spent easily like 2 days tunneling before he turned his scanner on once... And thus I watched him fail upwards, and just kept providing him with more stuff, and more RDMS priviledges he kept constantly whining for instead of using the [filtered]ing game mechanism I tried to teach him for once.

One day I show up and he basically helped himself for about 800kl ore... That is after allready having splurged every quanta he ever made when we split up bounty. Yup after he spent his, he started taking my half. Allways for projects stupider than the one before too, the guy had never hauled more than 300t and was sinking his ressources in a dynamic L core that filled out the whole space of the core, by the time I kicked him out of my account. Honestly I tolerate him bc I know him IRL, but it's really impressive how imperveous he is to advice and how talented he is to allways try the worst method first, which compounds into something truely awful because he can stick with something for years if it half worked once, and keep blaming it on the cirumstances if doesn't work when it shouldn't. Skilled all my talents to lvl3 too, even the ones I have at 5 on my main, he was just too special for any kind specialisation or planning ahead..

 

 

Thanx man! This story cracked me up!

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On 1/15/2022 at 10:03 AM, Chorum said:

Hi,

i write this because i believe in constructive criticism. 

 

DU was my big hope in terms of an MMO. I loved the integrated Systems and thought it would go into the right direction.

I payed even if i stopped playing for some months, because i believed that will be the new kind of MMO.

 

But now i want to discribe my Gameplay in DU as a Casual Gamer with an 9 to 5 job:

 

Any Production - gone, its to expensive and cheaper to buy stuff from big corps

Mining - I do mining to pay my taxes. I need to mine low Tier Ore , because in not secured space my ship will be destroyed and robbed.

Calibrating - it forces me to calibrate my MU for what reason? Game Economy? nope there are no costs. so only to steal my time and generate Server load.

Asteroid Mining for a Casual Gamer ? No clue .. didnt try it yet, if it takes hours then possible not a casual gamestyle.

Traveling - need to fly without warp, because it would be to expensive and i need to farm more for my taxes, so 4hours for a trip in one direction ...

Nice gameplay .. perhaps a mini game like calibration for that flight to prevent afk flying? that would be nice. thats value play time ....

 

My Conclusion :

 

I do Mining, Calibration and flying around to pay my taxes and stuff. around 80% of my playtime.

i have some fun to build a ship but thats only a small part of my playtime because my time is limited. and if i had to work 80 % of that time for my taxes, there isnt much left.

 

If DU will stay on that course, there will be a hand full of big corps and some pirates. nothing for new players to stay for. 

and for what will the playerbase stay in the game? Story , discoveries and stuff ? Nope...

 

The Game seams to get the playstile of be a wheel in a big corp. Do what is nessessary for the Corp to get the benefits. 

 

thats like real life work in a game ...

 

i lost my ship with ore for my taxes today , that was the drop of water that makes the vase overflow.

 

bye

Chorum

 

 

Chorum, when I started, I had one of the hardest learning curves I've ever experienced in any game. I hear you man.

 

If you ever do come back, PM me and we'll move you out to our player corp where you'll be supported and have people to answer your questions and help out.  This game is augmented when you have people to help.

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Sorry to see someone leave the game.  DU is solo friendly but to get the max joining an org would be benefit to you.  Maybe return in the future?

 

Honvik

Premier of the Empire Org

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