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DEMETER PTS PREVIEW - Discussion Thread


NQ-Deckard
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So here is a question has NQ answered the many threads for them to respond to our comments about this train wreck of an update? NO you say well then its high time Miners unite lets hit NQ where it hurts they say the reason for this dire need for auto miners is the server cost. Well I say miners unite and dig as many holes as we can as fast as we can every where!! An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but in this case a scoop for a scoop and a hole for a hole lol lets send a clear message that we are not going to take these taxes and just roll over and say ok but please use lube. So miners and non miners dig dig dig dig dig and then dig some more!!

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22 minutes ago, ReconDo17 said:

So here is a question has NQ answered the many threads for them to respond to our comments about this train wreck of an update? NO you say well then its high time Miners unite lets hit NQ where it hurts they say the reason for this dire need for auto miners is the server cost. Well I say miners unite and dig as many holes as we can as fast as we can every where!! An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but in this case a scoop for a scoop and a hole for a hole lol lets send a clear message that we are not going to take these taxes and just roll over and say ok but please use lube. So miners and non miners dig dig dig dig dig and then dig some more!!

Can you dig on un-owned tiles now?  What would be the reason for them to enable that?  If not you'll end up paying a lot of taxes in order to protest against taxes ....

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I'm having a hard time figuring out where the T1 ore on the market will come from in Demeter.  It's pretty easy to find T2 ore to automine and you get the same amount of T2 ore per hour as T1 ore from them.  Why would anyone ever automine T1 to sell when they can automine T2 just as easily and get more money for it?

Same for asteroid mining.   It's true that T2 ore mines a bit more slowly, but not a lot.  And the costs of fuel/warp cells/time going to and from an asteroid are not smaller when mining T1.  On asteroids T2 ore is just as easy to find as T1, so why would you waste time mining the T1 on an asteroid.

So why would anyone ever choose to mine T1 ore anywhere if they're mining to sell on the market?  If there isn't a good reason, doesn't that mean the T1 ore price will rise until it is the same as (or a bit higer than) the T2 price to give people a reason to product it?

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36 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

I'm having a hard time figuring out where the T1 ore on the market will come from in Demeter.  It's pretty easy to find T2 ore to automine and you get the same amount of T2 ore per hour as T1 ore from them.  Why would anyone ever automine T1 to sell when they can automine T2 just as easily and get more money for it?

Same for asteroid mining.   It's true that T2 ore mines a bit more slowly, but not a lot.  And the costs of fuel/warp cells/time going to and from an asteroid are not smaller when mining T1.  On asteroids T2 ore is just as easy to find as T1, so why would you waste time mining the T1 on an asteroid.

So why would anyone ever choose to mine T1 ore anywhere if they're mining to sell on the market?  If there isn't a good reason, doesn't that mean the T1 ore price will rise until it is the same as (or a bit higer than) the T2 price to give people a reason to product it?

Nothing prevents you from mining both the T1 and the T2 , etc..  from the same tile.  I.e. just put more autominer.   It would make sense if you have a nice T2 tile that's got some T1 also that you would also mine the T1.  After all you might be putting them all close to each other so your all going to put this in one big box.  It will also increase your revenue per tile and this will easily pay for the taxes .   Honestly 1 tile with could actually make quite a bit of money if you have a descent L/H of T2.  Even with the taxes stayed at the same level .

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Given that the taxes are a tiny fraction of what you'll make selling the ore, and I'm talking 

1 minute ago, LosNopales said:

Nothing prevents you from mining both the T1 and the T2 , etc..  from the same tile.  I.e. just put more autominer.   It would make sense if you have a nice T2 tile that's got some T1 also that you would also mine the T1.  After all you might be putting them all close to each other so your all going to put this in one big box.  It will also increase your revenue per tile and this will easily pay for the taxes .   Honestly 1 tile with could actually make quite a bit of money if you have a descent L/H of T2.  Even with the taxes stayed at the same level .

But taxes aren't really that relevant are they?  They're a small percentage of what T2 ore sells for.  Right now T1 is about 1/4 of the T2 price.  If you can use more autominers why wouldn't you just claim another tile and mine even more T2 ore?

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So if they NQ are so hell bent for leather and decide to keep this update as is an push it out without any or minor changes then the following items mentioned MUST be increased:

 

1. The amount of ore per tile or as you NQ have it in the update the amount of ore available in the pool and the diversity of that pool in addition to the amount of each type or tier  

2. The amount of safe zone asteroids 12 to X number is not going to cut it, there needs to be at least 20 to 50 per week 

3. On the subject of asteroids have chance weekly that an advanced will spawn in the SZ, I understand rare and exotic in PVP space but give new players a chance at those higher asteroids with higher tier ore

4. If you all are bent on keeping the taxes that high per week then not only do the above but also increase the payout and number of SZ (safe zone) missions. 

5. In addition to these above suggestions and in line with taxes increase the daily payout to 250,000 this will incentivize players to log in and give NQ a chance to give the taxes back to the community and spur the economy.

 

Or

 

You (NQ) could do none of these and ignore the countless other suggestions and comments barreling full steam ahead to the rapid end of this game.  You have something great and it can be made better, as I have said you are not going to please everyone all the time its a give and take. The community is very diverse in this game and that is a good thing for everyone I have met people from all over the world in my time in MMOs. I mean think about it this way we are all coming together to achieve a common goal when is the times of this world we live in does that happen in any one persons country. 

 

Some of us come here to escape the stresses of life, whether it be our job, family issues or the many other things any given person could be going through we come here for community, fun, creativity and for some a chance to belong to something bigger if you so choose to be in a massive Org. Please listen to the community and give us feedback that you are listening and you are looking at these comments as you have asked us to do so many times. 

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10 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Given that the taxes are a tiny fraction of what you'll make selling the ore, and I'm talking 

But taxes aren't really that relevant are they?  They're a small percentage of what T2 ore sells for.  Right now T1 is about 1/4 of the T2 price.  If you can use more autominers why wouldn't you just claim another tile and mine even more T2 ore?

The limitation is really the number of charges you have to "calibrate"  the mining units ,  the quality of the tiles you are able to find,  and the time you are willing to put in .  Based upon what I have seen mining will easily pay for the taxes.  Obviously this does not really solve some of the projects that are around like cities,  in which case the mining might not pay for the taxes and I could see why they would be upset.   On the other hand,  the taxes will free up tons of tiles that are not really being used for anything.    Regarding why not mine more T2,  eventually if everybody mines the T2 instead of the T1 price of T2 will crash and T1 will spike.  It will self regulate.    But Yes ,  I agree with you,  initially everybody will do the math and most likely do T2 /T3, etc...  rather then T1.

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4 minutes ago, LosNopales said:

The limitation is really the number of charges you have to "calibrate"  the mining units ,  the quality of the tiles you are able to find,  and the time you are willing to put in .  Based upon what I have seen mining will easily pay for the taxes.  Obviously this does not really solve some of the projects that are around like cities,  in which case the mining might not pay for the taxes and I could see why they would be upset.   On the other hand,  the taxes will free up tons of tiles that are not really being used for anything.  

Yes, and none of those things are really better with T1 ore than T2.  I can easily find T2 tiles, tax is the same and it doesn't take any extra time to have several tiles because I can just use VR to charge the various mining units.

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3 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Yes, and none of those things are really better with T1 ore than T2.  I can easily find T2 tiles, tax is the same and it doesn't take any extra time to have several tiles because I can just use VR to charge the various mining units.

Hum,  did you have a chance to use VR  to do that ?,  I did not have time to try that.  I suspect they will remove that if it works today,  they have pretty much removed 90% of what VR can be used for :(

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It would be so simple, all areas have the same number of ores in litres that can be mined.
For example, all areas always have all T1 ores, as well as an equal amount of T2 / T3 ores.
Add PvP areas = T4+T5 ores

The litres remain the same on all planets in the safezone, the PvP planets get +10% litres more/hour (as soon as the safezones on the planets have been removed).

There will be no mega areas, but all areas will have 
T1 500L/hour (plus 10% for PvP planets)
T2 350L/hr (plus 10% for PvP planets)
T3 300L/hr (plus 10% for PvP planets)

T4 150L/hour
T5 130L/hour 

No one has to scan, no one is disadvantaged, new players have the same chance to promote the same with the basic values....


 

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6 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

It would be so simple, all areas have the same number of ores in litres that can be mined.
For example, all areas always have all T1 ores, as well as an equal amount of T2 / T3 ores.
Add PvP areas = T4+T5 ores

The litres remain the same on all planets in the safezone, the PvP planets get +10% litres more/hour (as soon as the safezones on the planets have been removed).

There will be no mega areas, but all areas will have 
T1 500L/hour (plus 10% for PvP planets)
T2 350L/hr (plus 10% for PvP planets)
T3 300L/hr (plus 10% for PvP planets)

T4 150L/hour
T5 130L/hour 

No one has to scan, no one is disadvantaged, new players have the same chance to promote the same with the basic values....


 

In order for PvP to be worth it you need to add a lot more than 10%.  4x higher, for example.  Even then with flat yields there will be plenty of empty tiles to claim with the same yield, so people will just be attacking for fun + loot.


Flattening this out means that scanning is no longer a thing, which takes yet another activity out of the game.

The advantage thing could be fixed by, for example, making the best tile only 4x as good as the worst and using an even distribution so that there are thousands of 'good' tiles.  Too many for one entity to claim.

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25 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

It would be so simple, all areas have the same number of ores in litres that can be mined.
For example, all areas always have all T1 ores, as well as an equal amount of T2 / T3 ores.
Add PvP areas = T4+T5 ores

The litres remain the same on all planets in the safezone, the PvP planets get +10% litres more/hour (as soon as the safezones on the planets have been removed).

There will be no mega areas, but all areas will have 
T1 500L/hour (plus 10% for PvP planets)
T2 350L/hr (plus 10% for PvP planets)
T3 300L/hr (plus 10% for PvP planets)

T4 150L/hour
T5 130L/hour 

No one has to scan, no one is disadvantaged, new players have the same chance to promote the same with the basic values....


 

Having all tiles similar would be very disappointing.  You would remove any reason for conflicts,  remove the need to scan (why scan if they are equal),  remove the ability for someone to sell the scans/territory.  I.e. lots of trades goes on in DU right now over territories due to minerals in a tile.   Also you would just kill the market for T2 and above.  I think you will be surprised at how low the T3/T4/T5 L/hour are right now. 

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Is there already a plan what happens if I have my core on a foreign territory?

My suggestion would be:

As soon as an area goes inacitve, the other core owners on the territory should have a kind of right of pre-sale right for that territory.

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21 minutes ago, LosNopales said:

Having all tiles similar would be very disappointing.  You would remove any reason for conflicts,  remove the need to scan (why scan if they are equal),  remove the ability for someone to sell the scans/territory.  I.e. lots of trades goes on in DU right now over territories due to minerals in a tile.   Also you would just kill the market for T2 and above.  I think you will be surprised at how low the T3/T4/T5 L/hour are right now. 

A solution would be to have T1 ores at roughly the same extraction rates (with tiles having higher or lower rates, depending on tile 'quality'), then higher tier ores at randomised levels, in a similar manner as ore amounts are currently found in tiles.

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1 hour ago, LosNopales said:

Hum,  did you have a chance to use VR  to do that ?,  I did not have time to try that.  I suspect they will remove that if it works today,  they have pretty much removed 90% of what VR can be used for :(

If the use of VR was used as intended than rather to find exploits then they NQ would have left it alone but its the actions of a few that ruin it for the rest of us. Also if they leave it where you can access the UI for the auto miner to check its status but however not be able to perform any functions on it that would be acceptable to everyone I think 

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4 hours ago, LosNopales said:

Hum,  did you have a chance to use VR  to do that ?,  I did not have time to try that.  I suspect they will remove that if it works today,  they have pretty much removed 90% of what VR can be used for :(

 

I haven't tested it, but it was deliberately added to the patch notes. The notes that nobody read. It wasn't a mistake.

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3 hours ago, LosNopales said:

  I think you will be surprised at how low the T3/T4/T5 L/hour are right now. 

 

I found an Acanthite bloom with multiple tiles over 250. Before talents/handling/calibration/etc.

And found a Rhodonite bloom at 52, with surrounding tiles in the 20s and 30s.

 

Not that bad. The 7 hexes of Acanthite would pay for a hell of a lot of taxes, at current rates. I think my math was somewhere around 135M/week in income from those 7 hexes, again at current rates. With proper talents/etc.

 

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My opinion about the update:

I like the idea, but not exactly how it's done.

 

The main issue I have with this: The Taxes are far too high for people who are more interested in planetary building. The average Tile on Alioth gives you about ~500l/h, so ~84kl/week and most of this is T1

Even with talents it may be 150kl/week (not exactly, but just for demonstration). This is an amount you can currently get in 1h mining. And you have to sell at least ~1/2 to pay the taxes. The amount you'll receive in the end is way less than what you can get now if you are ready to invest some time.

 

If you are someone who likes to fly to other planets and build a base there this may be okay. I've heard about tiles with 300l/h T3 ore and more, so the taxes would not be an issue. But players who like the planetary building on alioth and not space travelling, will be extremely slowed down and I think this will cause more frustration in the playerbase.

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I like it in general, but I have one issue.

 

This new system is removing a very large role, the casual or planetary miner. They are gone, but this new system has not added a new role. Because of the limit on charges you can’t spend five or six hours being the mining unit guy who goes around keeping everybody’s MUs in the org running.

 

Probably to late at this stage, but what I would (personally) recommend for future adjustments would be...

 

- have a series of talents which say how many mining units a person can own like there already is with cores. You could even do the progression for bigger mining units like there are for larger cores.

- have a talent tree of how efficiently you can make MUs run

- have a talent tree on the cooldown between calibration.

 

Once that was installed, the only difference I would make is remove the cooldown from the player and move it to the MU. This way if somebody went and invested lots of points to be able to run MUs very efficiently, they could go around five hours a day if they wanted making all of theirs and the org mates MUs running as well as possible. Yes the friends/org mates would have to invest in the talents to get more and higher level MUs, but the other two talent trees would only be necessary for the hard core MU guys.

 

So this is what I would recommend, don’t take away a role in the game without replacing it with a new one.

 

Me personally, haven’t mined in 4-6 months. But I’ll have a few units on a hex running, especially if I find a sweet hex. But I’d rather have somebody else who enjoys that type of stuff run then and take a cut; just like I run missions for lots of players and take a cut.

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Who am I paying taxes to?

 

This abstract Aphellia entity, which also collects market taxes and already makes huge sums of money that way?

What do I get from Aphellia for this generous donation of 1M per tile per week? 

 

The privilege of magically being protected from looters to take away my hard earned assets? 

I already expected this when territory warfare was rumoured, but it just doesn't seem to come.

 

So what am I paying for exactly?

The entire Lore of DU is about settlers colonising new worlds and tailor their own fate. There is no "state" that I bought the territory from. It was new, unclaimed land. If anything, I should be the one that collects taxes to my tenants (If I manage to find some anyway).

 

And if you really think that Aphellia or "the state" can and should do this - Then give us ability to overthrow this greedy bastard, because apart from collecting money from us by selling us schematics, charging territory and market taxes and God knows what else in the future, Aphellia is just in the way of progress.

 

I've been living in this universe since Alpha, and I was really enthusiastic about the game. I understand that progress should come at some price. But from my perspective I already paid the price by investing insane amount of time in mind-crushingly boring mining (thank god for mining units), doing logistics to transfer the ore, selling on maket, etc - all that so that I can finally start doing what I came here for - construct a cool starship, and go and explore the universe.

 

Stepping out of my DU character and looking it from a casual gamer experience:

NQ, you made so much effort in slowing down the game (schematics, and now taxes)- up to a point of grinding halt.

 

DU no longer feels like a getaway form a real-life grind. Instead, it now feels like a prison where you are taunted with a promise that you can do anything that you want, only to be blocked with an overwhelming amount of grind that's in the way of your dream.

 

Being a software developer myself I know that you sometimes need to make compromises in order to deliver in a timely manner, but Demeter as-is is not acceptable.

 

Cut down the taxes to a symbolic amount, get rid of Atmo brakes tweak, and then we can continue to fight to live another day.

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I am shocked that we as settlers want to ensure survival and make the same mistakes here in the new solar system as we did in the old solar system.
We are plundering the planets, arbitrarily stamping heavy industry everywhere, which is mainly intended for the machinery of war. We wage war on ourselves as usual. HELLO!? We all came out of the same colony ship in a suit and start a war right away?

Why are looters and war criminals still allowed into the safe zone and to accept missions at Aphelia? These traitors to our society should be hunted down everywhere! No opportunities to buy or sell anything on the market, no safe zones to enter, etc. THAT would be credible content.

 

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18 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

Why are looters and war criminals still allowed into the safe zone and to accept missions at Aphelia? These traitors to our society should be hunted down everywhere! No opportunities to buy or sell anything on the market, no safe zones to enter, etc. THAT would be credible content

Wouldnt change anything, then they just use alts or friends to get their stuff. Also, this would be pretty useless because who counts to that group? Everyone who shot someone? What about a war? What about ppl who defended themselves?

 

It's up to players to hunt them down, not NQ to punish someone to actually do what pvp Space is there for

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Wouldnt change anything, then they just use alts or friends to get their stuff. Also, this would be pretty useless because who counts to that group? Everyone who shot someone? What about a war? What about ppl who defended themselves?

 

It's up to players to hunt them down, not NQ to punish someone to actually do what pvp Space is there for

I am interested in creating content for this game. But at the moment I don't have the tools to do that.
As for my idea/thoughts above, I would like to see that over time you could join an organisation/faction in the game that is not controlled and taxed by aphelia, but could create new organisations.
Why can't I join a "pirate faction Blackpearl" in the game that can create their own system. If a player dies there, he is not revived in the safezone at Aphelia, but generally in his faction base on planet XY. (This main base also has a safezone, from there these pirates Blackpearl can also spread out in all directions. Besides this faction, there could be many factions, but all of them have their own protected planets. From a purely lore-technical point of view, this would make more sense. If we always allow criminals to upload to aphelia, it is simply unbelievable.

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After looking at all the numbers. I now have millions of unusable talent points. I won’t be able to supply my factory and be able to pay taxes. Ore prices will sky rocket after the update. Which will also make it harder to continue with game play. Unless they change the way VR works. You’ll have to travel to each planet to keep miners going. 

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21 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

I am interested in creating content for this game. But at the moment I don't have the tools to do that.
As for my idea/thoughts above, I would like to see that over time you could join an organisation/faction in the game that is not controlled and taxed by aphelia, but could create new organisations.
Why can't I join a "pirate faction Blackpearl" in the game that can create their own system. If a player dies there, he is not revived in the safezone at Aphelia, but generally in his faction base on planet XY. (This main base also has a safezone, from there these pirates Blackpearl can also spread out in all directions. Besides this faction, there could be many factions, but all of them have their own protected planets. From a purely lore-technical point of view, this would make more sense. If we always allow criminals to upload to aphelia, it is simply unbelievable.

Doesnt change anything either because then lots of ppl can still join the safezone faction and be pirates.

 

But sure, more factions would make sense.

 

And no, letting players decide who can join them in a safezone is not a good idea either. This needs to be done by NQ. 

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