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DevBlog: The Maneuver Tool and Disconnecting Ships - DUscussion thread

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1 hour ago, NQ-Naunet said:

So based on what I've read so far here and on Discord, these are my main takeaways:
 

  • Many players are concerned that the Alt+F4-stop-and-login-to-instantly-regain-speed workaround will potentially be used as an exploit piloting maneuver during PvP, giving those that use it an overpowered advantage.
  • While some players are feeling comfortable with the maneuver tool distance restriction, many are requesting an increase of up to ~250m to accommodate bigger elements such as L Cores.
  • There are some concerns about moving unwanted constructs from player-owned tiles.
  • That there are some bugs that should have been addressed before NQ nerfed the maneuver tool.


Please let me know if there's anything I need to add to the list! 

 

Woah you don't even put the MAIN problem that people are complaining about.

The game is poorly optimized for these implementations. Put that.

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4 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

 

Suppose that someone lands on a market pad and logs out, causing their ship to vanish. What happens if another ship lands there and then the first logs back in?

 

Elite: Dangerous solves this by only having up to x players in a given session. If you arrive at a station and it's full and you can't dock, you can swap to solo, dock, swap back to open, and you're in a new session with a slot for you.

 

DU doesn't have discrete docking bays.

it was just an idea, not a solution! As you pointed out, my idea is flawed but the game is flawed ten fold. 

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7 minutes ago, Tenchikun said:

it was just an idea, not a solution! As you pointed out, my idea is flawed but the game is flawed ten fold. 

Sorry, I was merely participating in discussion. I didn't intend for it to be taken as harsh criticism.

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2 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

Sorry, I was merely participating in discussion. I didn't intend for it to be taken as harsh criticism.

wasn't taken as harsh criticism, just taken as criticism and it's welcomed. 

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

100 more hours of wonderful digging, mine is that way. Good luck.

I thought it was hilarious that even the grand galactic lore puzzle was all about digging and mystery ore.

 

Yay.

 

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What a joke this nerf really is...

 

We are supposed to be in like year 9000 or something and yet we are still flying around with fossil fuels / rocket fuel and no actual scifi tech or at the very least nuclear powered ships, fusion reactors, solar power, plasma, or anything cool lol. Hell we dont event have a proper hover jet / helicopter rotots? and yet with anti grav you cant even sustain it now? Or even move a ship more than 50m?

 

I could see if NQ was like hey we are taking away the max from the personal maneuver tool but we are going to add some kind of mounted  machine on static/dynamic cores. Or that if you are in your own territory you can move it more or outside your territories you cant move it as much.

 

Its like really?

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On 11/25/2020 at 11:24 AM, Physics said:

May I make a suggestion for NQ up the chain. Take the suggestions CM’s are noting down from these feedback posts and authorise the CM’s to make a post, “following our community feed back here are the changes to the upcoming patch 0.23 and here is what we could not do because of x,y & Z. This will give us a feel good feeling that our input is having an impact on game direction.

Dude your community is not special over the ENTIRE Dual Universe community. This forum is for the community of DU, or it would have "special people only"  tagged some where on it. Be courteous to your fellow DU members we're all trying to be heard.  

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@NQ-Naunet Something else to consider for these changes: the "Further, if you disconnect while another player is in range, the server already assigns the task of handling the physical properties of your ship to that nearby player." part.

 

People have been talking about this in the official discord a lot, and one major concern is that the "player is in range" distance should be equal to or further than linked container range (at least 2500m). Otherwise, the following sequence would be possible and exploited.

  1. Have a ship consisting of a lot of engine and a hub of 10 L containers.
  2. Link to the hub.
  3. Move away from the ship and have a third party accelerate the ship to cruising speed towards another planet.
  4. Have the third party disconnect.
  5. Move within linked container range of the ship, but not the physics range, and fill the container with megatons of cargo.
  6. Have the third party log back in, instantly accelerating the ship back to cruising speed, with all of those megatons of cargo being accelerated for free.

 

edit: Here's a second potential exploit for you to consider: 

Quote

Marten said: If your going between planets and log out (a scenario they listed in the post) someone can find your ship, force it to move by proximity, and just follow you out to the middle of nowhere for ganking

 

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3 hours ago, NQ-Naunet said:

So based on what I've read so far here and on Discord, these are my main takeaways:
 

  • Many players are concerned that the Alt+F4-stop-and-login-to-instantly-regain-speed workaround will potentially be used as an exploit piloting maneuver during PvP, giving those that use it an overpowered advantage.
  • While some players are feeling comfortable with the maneuver tool distance restriction, many are requesting an increase of up to ~250m to accommodate bigger elements such as L Cores.
  • There are some concerns about moving unwanted constructs from player-owned tiles.
  • That there are some bugs that should have been addressed before NQ nerfed the maneuver tool.


Please let me know if there's anything I need to add to the list! 

Please add that using Alt+F4 or logging out in order to lock a ship in place is the only way to keep AGG ships from falling out of the sky when the user gets too far away from it. Right now, the AGG just stops working if you get too far from it, and it isn't very far either.

I feel it could be as simple as giving a new function to the AGG that locks a ship in place. There should of course be limitations on use, for example a maximum speed and within a range of the base altitude. It should persist until the user Unlocks the AGG.

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Graphics need to be updated before this. I play games way over the graphics and never get as many issues as this one. Including disconnects. NQ, always says lower your graphics card, but guess what it is already as low as it goes. If this is implemented, you are going to see players decrease until you figure the occasional disconnects. I understand it is beta and issues arise, but this issue has been going on forever. I get about 2-3 exceptioan errors a day. Review the logs we give you and figure it out.

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2 hours ago, theshockcabletv said:

Dude you're your community is not special over the ENTIRE Dual Universe community.

Where is he not talking about he entire DU community? It sounds like you are the one not reading this correctly and getting on your high horse for no reason here.. You do realize that CM stands for Community Manager and is not the name for his org/community right?

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I think NQ need to fix the bugs first before this ever gets released. Spinning ships due to adjusters stuck on applying force. Was told this was a lua issue although the fix I had the admin apply did not work. I think we need to have a type of parachutes for our ships. If our game crashes for whatever reason I would rather have it resume once I enter the cockpit vs just having it start back in motion because once I join the game I wont be in my cockpit and I wont have time to make the correct actions. How many times have you tried to fly and all of a sudden your ship goes out of control due to adjusters spinning you out of control for no reason. The same applies for the elements getting damaged and having us only have so many life's for those elements. NQ bug that spins your ship out of control you crash and swear at NQ's bugs and cry your tears out cause now you have to rebuild several elements or repair every element on your ship and life's are lost for those elements due to bugs that haven't been fixed and changed that made it worse....

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2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

You do, it's called an Emergency Control Unit

That's not a parachute. If a player normally relies on a gradual slow descent to land, will it also do the same gradual descent to a flat area? Or does it just apply brakes and yolo? I'm willing to bet that most people do not put enough atmo brakes to do a non-crash fall; something which I think is a bit of an exploit in itself.

 

We need parachutes.

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1 minute ago, Emptiness said:

That's not a parachute. If a player normally relies on a gradual slow descent to land, will it also do the same gradual descent to a flat area? Or does it just apply brakes and yolo? I'm willing to bet that most people do not put enough atmo brakes to do a non-crash fall; something which I think is a bit of an exploit in itself.

 

We need parachutes.

Agreed there should be some kind of diminishing returns as you add more components based on core size.

 

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3 minutes ago, ExPLiCiT said:

Agreed there should be some kind of diminishing returns as you add more components based on core size.

 

For most components, diminishing returns in addition to the natural lessening of effect (add an engine? 1x thrust. Add 3 more? 4x thrust. Add 3 more? 7x. Etc.) don't make sense.

 

For atmo air brakes, though, technically they function by increasing frontal cross section to increase drag. Right now, the direction doesn't matter, and they don't actuate, so they can just be stacked infinitely.

 

Atmo air brakes need to function differently. Space brakes too. They're just magic blocks right now.

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3 hours ago, theshockcabletv said:

Dude you're your community is not special over the ENTIRE Dual Universe community. This forum is for the community of DU, or it would have "special people only"  tagged some where on it. Be courteous to your fellow DU members we're all trying to be heard.  

You’re new around here... so you might want to take a rain check on the unbridled umbrage on display there... Physics on the other hand knows the game very well and more importantly knows how NQ goes about fixing bugs (or not... which is the problem). 
 

So how about taking a bit of a chill pill and try to read a bit more closely before shooting from the hip?

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So what about having an AGG "carrier" ship and you want to do a little work on your docked ships while hovering in orbit? You have to land on a planet or space station to do the work? That's crap! 50m distance is good enough, anything more is overkill.

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I've been discussing these changes with my friends since the start of the beta and its nice to see what we've been thinking from the start being considered. There are some issues to be addressed first though regarding these changes.

 

1. AGG 

As it has been mentioned above, the AGG mechanics should be made clear before any change is implemented. Is the AGG supposed to function without someone sitting on the command seat? If yes i suggest that the AGG is made to work reliably for a time limit after all players leave the construct. You should be able to enable AGG jump and and trade then go back up and move the ship. I think AGG ships that never land should be nerfed. You can make the ship at least be able to land itself without any cargo load. 

 

2. Time to move into command seat

I think there should also be a small time after loading back after a disconnect to get back to the seat before the momentum returns. For example after getting disconnected and loading back there should a warning that you have 20 seconds or something like that before the momentum returns and as soon as someone sits in the command seat the momentum should return. If you get disconnected during a crucial time like atmosphere entry without agg or landing close to the ground and the momentum returns instantly on load, even 2-5 seconds of not controlling the ship could be fatal. If it is to be perfect the ship should remember engine thrust levels too after loading back, but i do not expect that much 😜

 

Further suggested changes:

AGG should start at your current altitude instantly on activation and then you can change the base altitude for it to move you.

AGG base altitude should be different for each planet considering what the mean altitude of the ground is at that particular planet. There shouldn't be AGG friendly planets like Thades.

All floating platforms should be nerfed and removed. Makes no realistic sense and also they are flying hazzards. You should not be able to place a static core if no part of the grid is touching the ground or another core. 

Core stacking on top of each other should be limited and space elevators be removed from the game. I managed to hit one in orbit with a speed of 3900 once :D . Anyway its ugly makes no sense and it shouldn't be possible.

 

 

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I think the takeaway here In my opinion is this needs to be tested. The bugs need to be addressed.  Parachutes can be added  as a stop gap.   The people have thought about this and shown how it will be exploited in PVP and PVE carrying weight.   My final thoughts are  This is year 9000  we need new cool technology!!!   Rockets are from 1926  jet engines 1930s   the first cannons were from the 12th century!    lets have some more new stuff and cut out some of the outdated technology please!  

 

Phasers, shields, particle weapons', Fusion power, ships that are "bigger on the inside" :P  things like this that are  new really cool stuff please!!    The community can and will help if you let us.  

 

 

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@NQ-Naunet
One really major point i haven't found in comments of this thread is:

 - What happens to the destroyed ship in PvP at max speed?

Currently it stops because all player on the ship are killed when the core explodes and ship stops as there are no players in range.
If the dead ship calculation will be transferred to my PC, i will be flying close to the dead ship on max speeds and will have no option to capture the ship or even the cargo.
PvP at 29,999 km/h should be taken into consideration as well. We need some way to stop ships (at least dead ones) on max speed before making such changes.

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2 hours ago, W1zard said:

PvP at 29,999 km/h should be taken into consideration as well. We need some way to stop ships (at least dead ones) on max speed before making such changes.

Wait for Stasis Webifiers. Or CONCORD's handcrafted lockdown devices :D

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7 hours ago, Rimezx said:

 

Core stacking on top of each other should be limited and space elevators be removed from the game. I managed to hit one in orbit with a speed of 3900 once :D . Anyway its ugly makes no sense and it shouldn't be possible.

 

 

Man, I did the same, accelerating my ship to 1500 in 2% Atmo just to fly directly into the stupid Space Elevator tower in 5000 m altitude without any chance
alt f4 did not help, I was too shocked so there was not enough time to react :-)
@NQ give us a war declaration possibility, we would be glad to have some attacks on these towers to desintegrate them .

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Personally, I can only agree that core stacking should not be possible or at least be limited in use to say 2 or 3 levels but I doubt it will ever happen as the concept of space elevators will never be nerfed or removed, even when it is not that different from what players do with the maneuver tool (serves the same purpose in many ways), because NQ considers elevators "cool" and "emergent gameplay".

 

It's pretty much another example of how NQ will manipulate the sandbox based on their own subjective ideas.

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