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7 minutes ago, Rokkur said:

I think people enjoy PVP when the dynamic is correct. Right now the creative dynamic is better than the PVP dynamic, a failure of NQ in DU.

I don't need NQ rewards in PvP. It would be enough for me if PvP was made more fun. Reward for me in PvP is when the evening was fun, whether you win or lose. 
I really hope that PvP in DualUniverse would be made more fun and feel more alive, but seriously, it remains a dream that will probably never be fulfilled. Not a big deal for me, since I can also just stick to the creative part and enjoy PvP in other games.

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5 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

I don't need NQ rewards in PvP. It would be enough for me if PvP was made more fun. Reward for me in PvP is when the evening was fun, whether you win or lose. 
I really hope that PvP in DualUniverse would be made more fun and feel more alive, but seriously, it remains a dream that will probably never be fulfilled. Not a big deal for me, since I can also just stick to the creative part and enjoy PvP in other games.


Yes this is what I mean by a failure of NQ in DU... it is fun to build ships, it is currently not that fun to pvp.

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1 hour ago, Rokkur said:


Yes this is what I mean by a failure of NQ in DU... it is fun to build ships, it is currently not that fun to pvp.


 

It would be even more fun if there were gameplay possibilities other than storing more resources.
 

When you want endgame PvP, it's neither more nor less than being able to put your ass in a PvP zone, build the industries reserved for the PvP zone on it (at least T4 and T5), build tax-free player markets in a zone of security managed by ourselves (and not Aphelia).
In short, take advantage of the advantages that must be given by the choice to create a civilization in a new solar system.
 

Unfortunately there is no mechanism that allows you to establish yourself permanently in a PvP zone. There is not even a pop up alert at the level of the organization, if the superlegate does not connect, you have to check every 24 hours manual if someone has activated the shield of a single core L. Imagine the weakness of the mechanics if you have to check all the cores of a space base which will include several dozen...
And I'm not even talking about being able to dock a ship at this station, if you're not connected, the first guy passing by can destroy it.
Core alien plasmas are regularly stored in the safe zone for use.


Safe Zone everywhere and what 10 poor alien core in PvP that are just there so NQ can say "we put something down there".
It's just a joke.
 

Watch your reaction when a random player says they should remove all safe zones except Sanctuary. You all immediately take offense by yelling loudly.
 

Well, that's the daily life of PvP players, there's EVERYTHING in the safe zone and nothing. This kind of proposal is just a reaction to the injustice of the situation in order to react.
 

However I think we can live together, the removal of safes from outer planets is a good thing, Alioth / Madis and Thades are largely sufficient in planet. Adding some mechanics to fix T4 and T5 in zone PvP would also be a good thing.
Even if it seems to take months or years to arrive. The game will certainly be dead before, because with only PvE it will not be able to fill its servers, we can always hope.

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40 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:


Watch your reaction when a random player says they should remove all safe zones except Sanctuary. You all immediately take offense by yelling loudly.


I just want to focus on one part here that is highly important as to maybe a few reasons why this reaction exists.
I don't think it is at all adversity to pvp or a pvp enabled environment. 

I believe it is centered around these three elements.

1. NQ refusing to allow us a mechanism for restoring sanctuary tiles to original state and move our tiles to more easily collaborate, organize, and build tax free community centers, shops, etc in the same location that you gather your resources. Something we couldn't do on Alioth with HQ tiles especially if safe zones were removed from that planet.

2. Camping of the player base around one single point, providing a leverage for established players to prevent progression of new players. It would be extremely difficult for a new player to enjoy the rest of the solar system, If safe zones were reduced to only Sanct.

3. As you stated inability to establish yourself or protect anything seriously within PVP space due to the inmaturity of game mechanics, and lack of systems which make it viable to have both SUSTAINABLE infrastructure and conflict within overlapping zones.

I think in many ways we are all in violent agreement here, but are left to scrap amongst each other between what remains of the  community due to the lack of transparency, lack of tools, and lack of enjoyment frankly of an ALPHA being labeled as a BETA, which will in just months be considered 1.0, despite still being in an ALPHA state, all due to the financial issues NQ is experiencing.

It paints a grim picture, and the tactics of NQ in their update releases and tossing us shiny things, while the dark clouds of more vital core issues looming over the essential stability for gameplay continuity is itself a symptom of development going not as planned.

Edited by Rokkur
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20 hours ago, CousinSal said:

 

Like eve online where the whole game world is a pvp zone.  That's the only way for DU to survive. Sanc only for noobs learning the game and limit ores and how many machines they can have. 

Eve online's safe zones is called insurance.

Addendum: I will stipulate its not actually like real insurance since it never covers the full amount of the ship or even close to it but I certain that particular safe zone is never going to be a part of Dual Universe.

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First, just rename some terms, pve is not Non-PvP

we should better call it then PvE and PvPvE

Or PvP and Non-PvP

and frankly, DU is not PvE, there is nothing in the environment you fight against so best keep it non-PvP and PvP

 

It is very simple to be honest, PvP and non-PvE has to have a reason to be there, placing a planet under non-pvp with no lore, protection or reasoning whatsoever is just bad designing.

If DU has no reason for Non-PvP it should be a pvp zone.

Technically only the sanctuary moons and spaces around NQ markets should be safezones as was intended, that said it was also intended that a placed TU gave you rights to a hex and all on it, and security to attack as attackers first had to bring down the TU or shield, i cannot recall exact what was told back then.

That idea was great and together with the working community pages there was life, also because we all knew we had to organize and build protection and alliances.

Then we got what we have now and that brought also no need for alliances, no need for defence, no need for co-operation, and just continue. seeing that didnt work for the game we first got industial restrictions and that was not the end. Frankly those restrictions and more just made the whole PvP even harder.

If we should still have no restrictions and good ore deposits nobody would care for loosing one ship or base as we can quickly build new ships and bases. but instead we got a disfunctional market with vast restrictions on industry, new sucking ore mining all to make PvP more interesting.

Well shit, that did not work out. Strange not?

 

No offcourse this is not strange, who in his/her right mind goes PvP with a ship that took actual time to build and has everything you have.

With no ore or industry restrictions building a ship is rather easy and will give rise to better and more fun PvP as people have lower risks. this concept is already known and proven over a multiple of other games. DU acts asif playing it is your daily job. Well it is not, and frankly when i have time to spend a weeks time in a game, its not DU as rewards just suck. I am not gone name other games that do understand these points but i just wanted to have it said. Again. Although by now i have no hope to see any of these points even to be considered by NQ.

 

If PvP is about loot and destruction and needed on daily bases to keep players satisfied and there are no non-player ships to fullfill the same function Then there also must be a way for targets to actually build ships on a daily base to give rise to the destruction demand. 

When this circle of material flow is balanced and a valit part of the game there will be player contend as the players will need to build an infrastructure around this material flow. But guess what, there is no material flow. this game is build on a quanta sink with the idea that a working market in the end solves all issues.

 

The market is not the salvation, at the start of Beta DU florished as both individually as group based you could really make progress, me and my friends build enourmous bases, ships intrastructures, teritorial outposts anything. And it all stopped with the restrictions that came. before individuals had small industry to make small stuff but helped thier faction/alliance/conglomerance to get bigger but with killing the individuality and push players into groups most just stopped as most players are no sheep who want to follow a leader as mindless mining slaves, but somehow NQ development saw that differently, so .23 was implemented

 

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52 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

First, just rename some terms, pve is not Non-PvP

we should better call it then PvE and PvPvE

Or PvP and Non-PvP

and frankly, DU is not PvE, there is nothing in the environment you fight against so best keep it non-PvP and PvP


Its a SANDBOX.

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14 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

My kid plays in a sandbox that has more potential as DU at the moment

 

That sandbox properly also has a functioning open market system and (un)wanted pvp

plus over powered parental police to enforce rules

 

the bucket is OP

Edited by Kurosawa
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Yeah you are so right, it also has different ranged weaponry and different ammo. shielding apparently is also available but small ammo (aka sand) can get through and accumulates in the landing gears (aka shoes) or outer hull (aka trousers).

transwarp inhibition also is real in the form of mud and different forms of hull armor have an impact on speed. All in all, its brutal and main cause of red eyes and blue spots as the damage is real

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By 'player driven content' they mean content that's driven players from the game.  Never going to pay a sub for this.  Sub model only works if you aren't relying on a person to make the same bad purchasing decision over and over again.

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Forcing T4&T5 production into PvP zone, removing outer planets from safe zone. All this would be doing is trying to force PvE players into PvP. Which successful games out there which aren't just PvP games have worked doing this? (serious question)

 

You don't build up one by trampling on the other.

 

If there are so many people out there wanting PvP, why is it that every single alien core is currently controlled by one alliance, Legion. Are they the only PvP players, or are the others not really looking for a hard fight, but targets instead?

 

If they are the only PvP players, maybe they are the problem, and they need to disband, so there are more PvP groups fighting each other. After all, there can't be conflict if everybody is on the same team.

 

I'm not a PvPer. So I don't get the best resources; the asteroids with the high yields of high tier ore, the plasma from the cores. Take away the outer planets, you won't then get to fight me, I'll just retreat to the inner planets. But if you keep trampling on one player base to help the other, eventually we'd get sick of it and leave.

 

So back to how I started, don't trample on one to build up the other. Build both, help both.

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Good point, the non-pvp players are just seen as sheep to be harvested and exploided but to be honest the only way to have them be good loot is to make them fat sheep. dont pull everything good in pvp space, place everything in all space, pvp and pve. just make sure the respawn rate of ores is equally everywhere and then demand will make people go into pvp space when ores in pve are done for. There sure is reason for pve players to go to pvp space, just make all the space between all the planets pvp, just have a safe circle of space around moons and planets and all the rest is pvp, make reality real. and make only stuff the people of the arc can manage pve, so maybe indeed the sanctuary moons but then, also place security grids on them or satelites in space. just telling something is safe never withholded anyone in real life. Both PvP and non-PvP should be lore based and guarded by the arc people if "they" insist some zone is safe.

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1 hour ago, CoyoteNZ said:

Forcing T4&T5 production into PvP zone, removing outer planets from safe zone. All this would be doing is trying to force PvE players into PvP. Which successful games out there which aren't just PvP games have worked doing this? (serious question)

 

You don't build up one by trampling on the other.

 

If there are so many people out there wanting PvP, why is it that every single alien core is currently controlled by one alliance, Legion. Are they the only PvP players, or are the others not really looking for a hard fight, but targets instead?

 

If they are the only PvP players, maybe they are the problem, and they need to disband, so there are more PvP groups fighting each other. After all, there can't be conflict if everybody is on the same team.

 

I'm not a PvPer. So I don't get the best resources; the asteroids with the high yields of high tier ore, the plasma from the cores. Take away the outer planets, you won't then get to fight me, I'll just retreat to the inner planets. But if you keep trampling on one player base to help the other, eventually we'd get sick of it and leave.

 

So back to how I started, don't trample on one to build up the other. Build both, help both.

 

This. Every single game where pvp is an option, for whatever reason pvpers always think removing pve will somehow make pvp perfect. It doesn't.

 

All you are getting by making this change is giving free targets to pvpers. Ganking is not pvp, might as well add npcs to be killed, it would fulfill the exact same outcome, and wouldn't make gameplay for pvers worse...

 

If pvers want to pvp, they will go to the areas that can pvp. If they don't want to pvp and are forced to do it, they will stop playing eventually.

 

People have lives and DU already takes too damn much time to do anything. If I built an entire factory and ship to just be killed by some [filtered] that plays 24/7 I wouldn't be playing this. 

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5 minutes ago, Chrius said:

If they don't want to pvp and are forced to do it, they will stop playing eventually.

 

 

See this is what some people here do not understand.

 

A pve player calculates risk and reward before venturing in a non-safe zone, DU makes ships and property to valuable so the risk will always be to high. Add easier mining and industry and pve players will in the end go to pvp space. 

But there must be a reward, artifacts, unique gear, just remember to any PvE player Glamour is the real endgame

 

Add unique skins and unique building blocks in PvP and they will go. 

 

Lets say there is this ultimate flightsuit that can be found on crates on moons in pvp space, they will go. But only if the ship they can use to get there is expandable

 

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Posted (edited)

Once again, everyone in EvE exists in the pvp zone. EVERYONE.  and that game has been around 20 years and has a player base. DU is Dead Universe. 

Edited by CousinSal
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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, CousinSal said:

Once again, everyone in EvE exists in the pvp zone. EVERYONE.  and that game has been around 20 years and has a player base. DU is Dead Universe. 

 

Stop it with the Eve BS. This isn't Eve; it's nothing like Eve.

 

You're drawing one point of comparison like that is the only difference.

 

Eve also has actual PvE, insurance, and no ship building or atmospheric entry. 

 

I don't find pointing at differences between Eve and DU to be at all convincing, because they're very different products and one mechanical difference in isolation means very, very little.

 

Further, that Eve is still alive after this long doesn't mean that a product that clones Eve's features in part or whole will be equally successful. 

Edited by blundertwink
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1 hour ago, blundertwink said:

 

Stop it with the Eve BS. This isn't Eve; it's nothing like Eve.

 

You're drawing one point of comparison like that is the only difference.

 

Eve also has actual PvE, insurance, and no ship building or atmospheric entry. 

 

I don't find pointing at differences between Eve and DU to be at all convincing, because they're very different products and one mechanical difference in isolation means very, very little.

 

Further, that Eve is still alive after this long doesn't mean that a product that clones Eve's features in part or whole will be equally successful. 

Not comparing the games I'm comparing one concept, and that is if you do open world pvp in a single shard, EvE has shown to work where everyone lives in the pvp zone, thus not splitting its playerbase and is more seemless in its gameplay. DU separates it's community by its design choices and it shows.

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58 minutes ago, CousinSal said:

Not comparing the games I'm comparing one concept, and that is if you do open world pvp in a single shard, EvE has shown to work where everyone lives in the pvp zone, thus not splitting its playerbase and is more seemless in its gameplay. DU separates it's community by its design choices and it shows.

 

I get what you mean, but my point is that it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison because there's always more than one design element at play. 

 

Eve has NPC police and highsec...so yes it's "full open world PvP", but not remotely in the same context as DU. It also has ship insurance.

 

Which again emphasizes the point that you can't compare just one concept in isolation because every design element works together -- Eve's version of PvP works because of these other concepts. 

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6 minutes ago, blundertwink said:

 

I get what you mean, but my point is that it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison because there's always more than one design element at play. 

 

Eve has NPC police and highsec...so yes it's "full open world PvP", but not remotely in the same context as DU. It also has ship insurance.

 

Which again emphasizes the point that you can't compare just one concept in isolation because every design element works together -- Eve's version of PvP works because of these other concepts. 

 

Yes, and DUs doesn't because they have no concept or consistency.  The two worlds are miles apart in DU. So they should just remove PvP altogether, or work on making their unique concepts that allow pvp in the whole game world. As it stands now DU is dreadfully boring.  Everyone I use to play with had quit. And this was long before wipe talks. When you prioritize building as your main gameplay, you of course gonna have a dead game because that's niche as fvck. Look at SC it's got its host of problems but it is still wildly popular for a space game. Space engineers did It right, make the players pay for individual servers and mod it. That's what DU should of done because NQ doesn't have the slightest clue how to make an mmo.  

 

"jUsT lEt tHe pLaYeRs pRoViDe tHe cOnTeNt"

 

Then give us no tools to do so. GG

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1 hour ago, CousinSal said:

As it stands now DU is dreadfully boring.

 

Agreed -- more power to those that find it fun, but everyone knows it's not very engaging. 

 

1 hour ago, CousinSal said:

Space engineers did It right, make the players pay for individual servers and mod it. That's what DU should of done because NQ doesn't have the slightest clue how to make an mmo.  


I agree with this too, MMOs are fun and all....but with today's technology, they don't work well as builders because any sandbox will always be constrained by technical limitations around scale (e.g. infra cost). It took NQ way too long to realize this when it should have been obvious from the start. Hence the schematics and mining refactors. 

 

It's far easier to develop a small-scale MP game and there'd be few ongoing costs...Plus, everyone knew that people would freak out the instance PvP was announced for DU -- this goes back for so many years it's hilarious. 

 

To be fair, I highly doubt that VCs would have put up $20 million+ to back a non-subscription game. That MMO greed was a big motivator...as was JC's obsessions with the metaverse and "Ready Player One", so they were locked into this path...

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On 7/1/2022 at 6:25 AM, CousinSal said:

Once again, everyone in EvE exists in the pvp zone. EVERYONE.  and that game has been around 20 years and has a player base. DU is Dead Universe. 

No. You can keep all your assets docked up inside the 3000 indescribable stations where no one can touch them. When out in space you have a week notice to put all your toys away before they get attacked. Beyond that, suicide attempts.

 

However I do feel that when planetary warfare comes in, a war declaration system will be introduced. And once that happen du can claim it is even more pvp then eve since you won't have stations to hide in. Well if your considering where you can pvp as the deciding factor like you are.

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How can you cite such a tiny game like Eve as a positive example? The few players in the game find this product great, it also manages to make ends meet financially through this, great for such a niche product. However, it doesn't manage to attract large crowds and keep them in the game for years.

Why, in comparison, is a World of Warcraft or TESO or other games so much more successful in terms of player numbers and revenue? Because these games don't just make one group of players happy, but there are many groups that find fun there. Likewise, there is no compulsion imposed on them to necessarily do PvP. Who wants PvP, goes to the PvP areas or in arenas or battlegrounds or....who does not, just does what he wants, whether it is dungeons, raids, pet fights, professions, quests or the success system.

Dual Universe wants to make a name for itself on the market for years? Then you should also think bigger and not take such limited as Eve as a comparison.

 

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On 7/1/2022 at 1:24 PM, CoyoteNZ said:

Forcing T4&T5 production into PvP zone, removing outer planets from safe zone. All this would be doing is trying to force PvE players into PvP. Which successful games out there which aren't just PvP games have worked doing this? (serious question)

 

You don't build up one by trampling on the other.

 

If there are so many people out there wanting PvP, why is it that every single alien core is currently controlled by one alliance, Legion. Are they the only PvP players, or are the others not really looking for a hard fight, but targets instead?

 

If they are the only PvP players, maybe they are the problem, and they need to disband, so there are more PvP groups fighting each other. After all, there can't be conflict if everybody is on the same team.

 

I'm not a PvPer. So I don't get the best resources; the asteroids with the high yields of high tier ore, the plasma from the cores. Take away the outer planets, you won't then get to fight me, I'll just retreat to the inner planets. But if you keep trampling on one player base to help the other, eventually we'd get sick of it and leave.

 

So back to how I started, don't trample on one to build up the other. Build both, help both.



 

This reasoning makes no sense on a game like Dual Universe.
 

You must take T4 and T5 out of the safe zones.
 

There is no crush or obligation for you. You can buy T4 items and T5 produced by PvP players from the markets in the PvE area.
 

You will have 3 totally safe planets to do your things.
 

Now stop trying to prevent at all costs (even wishing you the death of the game with your words!) to prevent PvP players from having content in the PvP zone.

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