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How DU is going to destroy a free market


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I think Dual Universe has made two terrible decisions moving into launch.

 

First is the mining units. By allowing anyone to simply purchase mining units to gain all tiers of ore passively, they are going to flood the market with raw ore. Mining should be an art, and something that people spend time doing. Mining should be a career! To allow anyone to mine any material (albeit some more skilled than others) you take away from people who want to be miners. Obtaining ore should be a time consuming process that people have to dedicate themselves to. By simply having enough money to set up mining operations anywhere by dropping a few constructs, you take the profitability of mining away from others who want to focus on that career. The mining unit was a terrible choice. I've suggested it before in another thread that if you want to do away with permanent holes in the ground, make mining happen in instances. There are so many ways you can do this, and make materials discoverable based on mining skill. Make mining a real profession!

 

Secondly, getting rid of schematics is a terrible idea. For those of us that played after schematics came about, it really isn't a big deal. In fact, I love having schematics in the game. It makes zero sense that everyone can create anything without an investment in time. Without having some barriers to industry the market will be flooded with product which is a devastating effect on their value. Industry should be hard. It should take a lot of time, dedication, and investment to be effective at. If anyone can make anything, why even have a market? 

 

If you destroy mining and industry by not making them a focused profession, than what is left for players? Building ships so you can fight over space territories. Well, guess what, not everyone wants to do that! Some people enjoy being a support role. Producing things that an organization needs and providing value for their time. If you make everything stupid easy, the game will fail. I guarantee you. 

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@SlaySomething  I have a crazy idea.. How about instead of having the ore automatically brought to the container, we have to search for it ourselves... Instead of the ore being generic to an entire hex, NQ could hide the ore deep underground and then players would have to dig and search for it... Then you could use some kind of special tool that transfers the ore to your container.
The ore should be difficult to find so we could use some kind of scanner or radar that tells us the distance... And a skilled miner could then triangulate the location of the ore by moving about and judging the distance.

And the world comes full circle.

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4 hours ago, Jinxed said:

@SlaySomething  I have a crazy idea.. How about instead of having the ore automatically brought to the container, we have to search for it ourselves... Instead of the ore being generic to an entire hex, NQ could hide the ore deep underground and then players would have to dig and search for it... Then you could use some kind of special tool that transfers the ore to your container.
The ore should be difficult to find so we could use some kind of scanner or radar that tells us the distance... And a skilled miner could then triangulate the location of the ore by moving about and judging the distance.


Could be a unique game mechanic that some people find oddly relaxing and fun, though it sounds bandwidth intensive and expensive to support. They just need to tax the ore mined from the ground, like you can only use so much BAE (big aphelia energy) before your mining tool stops working. Then NQ could charge money for a premium subscription/currency, people could buy BAE to support the increased server costs to mine.

 

None of it will matter when DAC is added and people can just trade/buy quanta anyways.

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6 hours ago, SlaySomething said:

By allowing anyone to simply purchase mining units to gain all tiers of ore passively, they are going to flood the market with raw ore.

 

I agree that mining is bad bad bad experience

 

How ever how it affects Markets and game economy is not this simple

Ore is material for all crafting and industry. If cheap ore is available then all prices are low. Ships, constructs, elements, warp cells etc. This benefits those who earn money by other means than just selling raw ore. (selling raw materials is not wery clever way doing business)

 

Mining units also need upkeep in terms of Territory taxes and tedious calibration. Who wants mine any more ore than necessary.

 

Lowest buy price is what bots offer. If selling to bots ore goes out of the circulation, vanishes from game world.

 

Free markets don't exist right now, because Market places are run by NPC (Aphelia)

Only when Player markets (Market units) are enabled free markets can emerge.

 

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People argued against the old way of mining too and suggested ideas like mining units, so who should NQ listen to? Right now they have both, mining units and asteroids.

 

They don't need to get rid of schematics, they need to make them easier to use. Instead of physical items you buy off market and manually plug into each machine. They could be a researched based schematic bank or something, but not the way Starbase does it either.

 

There should be more things to do in the safe zone. I wish there was energy/power system, and more functional things. I think it will be more of a building sandbox than a game for a while.

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1 hour ago, kulkija said:

Free markets don't exist right now, because Market places are run by NPC (Aphelia)

Once the bots go, the market is going to be so saturated with lower tier ore that it won't be worth the cost of fuel to fly to the market and sell it. New players are going to have a terrible first time user experience trying to figure out how to make money. 

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45 minutes ago, Haunty said:

People argued against the old way of mining too and suggested ideas like mining units, so who should NQ listen to?

They should be able to best decide if they have long term, big picture expectations and goals for the game. You can't make changes just to keep your beta testers playing. The small group of people who play have almost no power to alter the future of this game's success or failure. NQ needs to ask themselves, how many players do we want actively playing this game? As far as the economy goes, if we want a million active players, which form of mining or industry can the market support that allows for competition through supply and demand and not simply material over saturation?

 

I feel like some of the long term implications of changes aren't being fully discussed or thought through. This game will die without specialization and a bigger risk vs reward system in my opinion. The everyone can do everything as long as they are around long enough model is lazy. Not everyone deserves a trophy no matter what activity they do in the game. 

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7 hours ago, Jinxed said:

 I have a crazy idea.. How about instead of having the ore automatically brought to the container, we have to search for it ourselves... Instead of the ore being generic to an entire hex, NQ could hide the ore deep underground and then players would have to dig and search for it... Then you could use some kind of special tool that transfers the ore to your container.
The ore should be difficult to find so we could use some kind of scanner or radar that tells us the distance... And a skilled miner could then triangulate the location of the ore by moving about and judging the distance.

Mining units weren't about changing how mining worked as much as it was to solve a world problem of too many holes. Mining should take effort. It should take time. It should be cumbersome. They could have solved this whole mining situation by just creating instanced mining. For people who didn't like the old way of mining, that would have been perfect for the economy. Don't like it? Don't do it. Leave the market to the people who want to be miners. Don't like to build? Don't do it! Leave industry to those they do. Etc. Making everything easy isn't the answer to long term survival. Most people will get bored. 

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1 hour ago, SlaySomething said:

Once the bots go, the market is going to be so saturated with lower tier ore that it won't be worth the cost of fuel to fly to the market and sell it. New players are going to have a terrible first time user experience trying to figure out how to make money. 

 

If bots go...

 

Territory taxes are so heavy that if bots stop buying at Guaranteed price bad and unexpected things can happen.

It is also possible that if bots go ore supply decrease due players are not able to pay territory upkeep.
 

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8 hours ago, Jinxed said:

@SlaySomething  I have a crazy idea.. How about instead of having the ore automatically brought to the container, we have to search for it ourselves... Instead of the ore being generic to an entire hex, NQ could hide the ore deep underground and then players would have to dig and search for it... Then you could use some kind of special tool that transfers the ore to your container.
The ore should be difficult to find so we could use some kind of scanner or radar that tells us the distance... And a skilled miner could then triangulate the location of the ore by moving about and judging the distance.

And the world comes full circle.

Sounds complicated. Maybe we should just put the rocks on the surface and harvest them one by one. To prevent any real value, let's make the ore gained really insignificant, and very tedious. They will never know.

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1 hour ago, kulkija said:

 

If bots go...

 

Territory taxes are so heavy that if bots stop buying at Guaranteed price bad and unexpected things can happen.

It is also possible that if bots go ore supply decrease due players are not able to pay territory upkeep.
 

I think bots buying T1 ore on starter planets is fine, but can get rid of everything else.

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Imagine:

T1 ores only in planets and moons

T2 ores only one tipe in planets and  moons.

T3 ores only in no safe zone moons with no safe zone protection "you have to risk your ship to haul your ore"

T4 ores only in Asteroids outside safe zones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@SlaySomething I'm wondering two things: #1 How long have you been playing DU; #2 Have you actually tried (at scale) to do what you're actually complaining about?

 

What you mine isn't actually related to what you can afford to buy or build, but what territory you have claimed. That is no different from the previous version of mining in DU. People that are mining the higher tier of ores are on the outer planets and are either lucky or have spend an enormous amount of time/effort scanning a TON of tiles... Lucky or a LOT of work seems imho a good starting point. And with eventual planetary warfare, especially on outer planets, that gives people motivation to conquer or defend swatches of land.

 

Then the work of Automining.

A.) A LOT of scanning tiles for the resources you want at the levels you want.

B.) Setting up mining stations on every tile. You can do that from Blueprint, but previously you couldn't set that up all that well, so you had to do it by hand. Or spent more time every time you moved from mining station to mining station. Planning and building your infrastructure takes up a lot of time and resources.

C.) Skills, you need a LOT of talent points to do this optimally, takes time. Means you can't train other skills.

D.) Minigame... Ugh! The minigame... Boring as F! But you really want to do it (but you can skip it), because it's the difference between 80% calibration (if you do the minigame perfectly) or 65% calibration and no dropped ore (skipping the game). Of course this assumes max skills (including handling skills on the AM). The added time of playing the minigame perfectly (which you can get pretty reliably when you've done it a LOT) is more then compensated by having to do the calibration less often, and less travel time.

E.) Scale... When you do 200 mining units (4 characters worth with max skills), you're doing millions of ore per week, but that means many, many hours per week spending on travel between mining units and playing the mini game. Not to mention, you have to move the ore around, that is not insignificant with millions of ore per week... This gets boring as hell quickly, so unless you have very specific goals set for yourself, I'm not seeing this happening at a large scale without people getting bored out of their minds quickly...

 

After spending a huge amount of time on my Natron AM mining operation (25 million ore collected in a couple of months), I spend even more time on dismantling that operation because I saw no reason to continue and I am attached to my sanity! None of that ore ended up on the market, it's all for fuel in a bunch of personal fuel depots all over the (outer) planets. Doing missions was far more profitable, with the changes to missions, that might change, but it takes a lot less active time and still has the potential to earn more (if you run multiple PCs.

 

Currently the market is borked due to the wipe announcement, but pre-wipe-announcement you could regularly sell Fuel significantly decently over the raw ore prices (assuming perfect refining/fuel talents). The Schematic costs are pretty insignificant, you could make some pretty quanta buying ores, making fuel and selling it. The talent requirements for that are relatively insignificant compared to many other products that were being made with virtually no profit margin... Imho that completely shoots out of the water your idea of the lack of Schematics destroying the market making products.

 

What it does now, doesn't matter, because after wipe/launch it's all different.

 

Assumptions: ore distribution reset; automining stays the same, wipe of everything except talentpoints, no more schematics, no NPC buy/sell orders.

 

No one will have the quanta to buy or ore to build much of anything, You'll start with a Basic Mining Unit S on your starter moon, backpack building, setting up industry. No one will have product to sell, no one will have quanta to buy much of anything, even if things are made available, prices will be unreasonably high. People will be using their ore themselves, just as when we started in beta. Scaling upto a level they'll be comfortable with... Scanning tiles en-mass will take a while, as the scanning units will be difficult, also the space ships that will carry them, etc. The territory units are also not cheap ore wise, so don't expect folks to have 50 units available (per character) for mass AM. What's available on the starter moons and Alioth is extremely limited, getting to the outerplanets isn't going to be fast or easy as warpdrives and cells will be unavailable and 'expensive' to make.

 

Quanta will be very limited, until certain people will have their missioning operations running again... Getting to the current situation of mass ore and quanta available has taken a year and a half of beta. A third+ was spend without Schematics... Imho the reason why pre 0.23 very little was sold at the market was because of the NPC buy orders on components that where VERY profitable, people would rather build and sell for NPC orders then for other players...

 

I do not mind the current Schematics system, but restarting from scratch and then having to buy Schematics with quanta now being so rare, is going to be an absolute pain! I already started working out some scenario's, the one with Schematics is seriously limited by the amount of quanta i can acquire quickly. But it still explodes outward eventually, but constantly limited by the amount of quanta you can generate. Imho it's gating content, not only by what you can build, but also your flexibility in the game, limiting what you can actually do in game. While that might sound good to some, it really isn't. When you're bored with one 'gameloop' you can't really access another, with the limited amount of 'gameloops' available in DU, especially after wipe/launch, you do not want people quitting due to being bored.

 

I do expect that ore will initially be very expensive, but most people won't be able to afford it. They might startup a massive automining operation, that would take a lot of time/resources they do not start with. They'll try that until it becomes less profitable or the get bored (or failed their sanity check)...

 

Then we still have the Asteroid Mining, I think it will take a while before someone can build an actual mining ship with the proper scanner. Heading out to pvp space would imho be doable, as very few actual guns will be build... Some people will be able to make huge rare ore stocks that way. Safe space asteroids will be a good secondary option and I suspect that when people can reach them, they'll do so asap and run those besides automining/missioning, as you're not really capped by limitations of automining (tiles/autominers/scanners)... I do would love to see some changes/love to Asteroid seeding: During the whole week and more spawns if the asteroids are mined out (per area safe vs pvp space)...

 

If there are still NPC buy orders like with Beta, gameplay will probably center around that until all those orders have been filled (and do not respawn)...

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2 hours ago, Haunty said:

I think bots buying T1 ore on starter planets is fine, but can get rid of everything else.

I'm currently seeing 200.000.000 T1 orders in every market (on every planet/moon) @25 quanta/L.

The question becomes, if someone manages to completely a 200 million liter ore orders, will it be renewed (with each patch)?

While I would prefer absolutely no NPC buy orders, just limiting it to T1 does make it far better then with Beta start...

Just limiting it to starter planets doesn't matter, people would just transport it to those starter moons from Alioth (or other safe zone planets).

 

Depending on how you can play, how often and when, missioning would still be more profitable then automining T1 and selling to bots. Especially for people playing with a single account.

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On 5/2/2022 at 4:28 PM, Cergorach said:

No one will have the quanta to buy or ore to build much of anything, You'll start with a Basic Mining Unit S on your starter moon, backpack building, setting up industry. No one will have product to sell, no one will have quanta to buy much of anything, even if things are made available, prices will be unreasonably high. People will be using their ore themselves, just as when we started in beta. Scaling upto a level they'll be comfortable with... Scanning tiles en-mass will take a while, as the scanning units will be difficult, also the space ships that will carry them, etc. The territory units are also not cheap ore wise, so don't expect folks to have 50 units available (per character) for mass AM. What's available on the starter moons and Alioth is extremely limited, getting to the outerplanets isn't going to be fast or easy as warpdrives and cells will be unavailable and 'expensive' to make.

The problem with our two views is that you are thinking about how a small amount of players will have to start over to rebuild the entire economy, and I'm thinking about 2 years from now, if the game is successful at adding the amount of players required to make this game profitable and retaining them. I've been playing since before and after mining units but started playing shortly after schematics were introduced. Having always played with schematics I'm fine with their existence. They make sense. Whether through market purchases or by adding research and development to the game (which would be cooler) the concept of no schematics at all was just dumb and lazy and the people who complained about adding them seem like people who weren't committed to actually have to work for their goals.

 

Every aspect of this game should be hard. Should require a focus on training, and investment, and time, and effort. That is the ONLY way this game survives the long term unless they basically do away with everything, make the entire focus about PvP, and people just raid and sell stuff to buy bigger faster ships than everyone else. If you make everything about this game easy and make it all about fighting over sections of territory without non PvP players having a significant role, this game will most certainly die. There are better games out there already within that model. This was sold as something different. They need to keep it that way. 

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Mining units are fine as we do have asteroid mining if we need extra 'ore' the issue and its a big one is elements do not decay or die (even in PvP due to the meta).  NQ turned off elemental damage.  Therefore ore goes in, no ore goes out (product wise) thus market is flooded or people hoard their elements.

 

If we had decay mechanics proper ones and destruction was on.  Ore prices would go up as ore would be in demand.  Ore is literally not in demand anymore due to what I am saiying!  Plus the NEED for voxels on ship's is not there.  Another hope was voxels mattered and they really still dont due to the changes in Athena.

 

Honvik

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Ore is not in demand, simply because of a few things.

 

1. Mining ore is still the only true source of income in this game. I.e everybody is producing ore one way or another.

2. There is hardly anything worth doing in this game. And the few hard core builders that has not yet been chased away, cannot be expected to sustain the game by themself.

3. There is simply to few players (for many reasons) left to sustain the game the way NQ wants us to play.

 

And I hardly think turning on element damage (NQ tried many times but you know, still lots of game bugs making people crash for no fault of their own) and decay would make a big change to this. And there is also a fundamental problem with decay in a persistent building game (much the same as with players not being able to leave for extended periods because of tax), so a power system would be a better fit.

 

And I also suspect making DU even more grindy as it is now with no real purpose for players to keep playing, would just make even more of us leave.

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Pre all the F'ery and changes I played this game for hours upon hours daily and enjoyed myself immensely. 
I had an in-game store producing builds, and was making quanta off of my builds. Life felt good.

Now I play on an alt account, I calibrate my MUs, and build only the essentials for myself (no longer sell designs), and play mostly on weekends.
The game feels dead, boring, and I am sad, yet still here hoping a miracle happens.

I honestly believe this game will probably struggle on like this for a few more years, flop at launch, and servers will shut down.

Hardest part is I see some really good small detail based improvements, but overall the game is boring as hell even if this is your niche.

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On 5/4/2022 at 7:12 PM, SlaySomething said:

I'm thinking about 2 years from now

And I'm thinking that having a serious discussion about a possible 2 years from now is foolish when the next couple of months are going to make or break the game/company. The game when it launched in beta isn't the same game as it is now, and that was a year and a half ago. I expect big changes/additions post release, not right away, but over the next two years. Discussing the game when we don't know how it will look in 2 years is an exercise in futility. I expect power management to be added, changes to asteroids, new things to build and build for, some form of planetary conflict on the outer planets, XL cores, etc. With such changes I can list ten things from the top of my head, how that will change the current systems drastically.

 

As for the Schematics discussion, there was already significant infrastructure and quanta in place when things changed. This will not be the case at the moment, that will make things incredibly hard, maybe hard enough that people won't want to play DU or quickly stop playing DU after a month or so... I did some quick calculations with and without Schematics when starting from zero and you need a ton of quanta quickly, due to Schematics. With the assumption of having to do missions that was quite a bit of missioning to do right of the bat, with a high probability of having massive T1 NPC buy orders, that might be hugely mitigated by selling ores to NPCs...

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5 hours ago, Cergorach said:

As for the Schematics discussion, there was already significant infrastructure and quanta in place when things changed. This will not be the case at the moment, that will make things incredibly hard, maybe hard enough that people won't want to play DU or quickly stop playing DU after a month or so... I did some quick calculations with and without Schematics when starting from zero and you need a ton of quanta quickly, due to Schematics. With the assumption of having to do missions that was quite a bit of missioning to do right of the bat, with a high probability of having massive T1 NPC buy orders, that might be hugely mitigated by selling ores to NPCs...

 

I want that. I want it to be a serious investment in all three of time, quanta and talent points to get a nice factory going. Just like I want it to be a significant invest in all three to become good at PvP or being a top shelf cargo/mission hauler.

 

if it is two easy to become good at a role then it takes the value out of the role, and makes it less fun for the people who really want to focus on that role. If you are fantastic at PvP, you should have a sucky warp factory. If you Rock at getting heavy ships out of atmosphere then, you should be doing less damage with your weapons.

 

if you want cheap parts, so you can do PvP cheaper, it should be teaming up with somebody who does industry, not easily being able to do both.

 

if you want a huge factory, you need to take time working on it, or team up with others in that field.

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7 hours ago, CoyoteNZ said:

if you want a huge factory, you need to take time working on it, or team up with others in that field.

And you think you didn't need all three before schematics? Ore = quanta and you needed quite a bit of that to actually make your factory. So you spend your time mining to build your factory, with Schematics you just did even more of that. Then we got missions, which eventually wound up being more efficient quanta makers. Then we got autominers and you could do both, missioning AND automining to make more quanta. If you had more chars/PCs you could even do automining, missioning, and asteroid mining... The problem with this imho is that to build that factory that needs massive amounts of quanta, you need good talents in flying/building ships (missions), good talents in automining, good talents in actual asteroid mining. And as these are all time gated, that's a a long, long training queue. That's not even talking about your manufacturing talents...

 

To get even close to that, I have four characters, all four have max automining operational skills, only one has the automining placement skills maxed. Two are almost perfect flyers, on is almost a perfect ship builder (no weapon/radar skill yet), and the other is mainly the manufacturer with a ton of random skills I thought I needed at the time. I can do T1 manufacturing perfectly and T2 is close to perfect. No asteroid mining skills anymore, as I do not expect to be able to do that soonish (after wipe), I just queued the ore pickup skills to prepare for wipe.

 

I started adding additional characters after I started getting bored with my mining/manufacturing stjick and realizing that I could not do much more except waiting for talents to train. That is similar what happened within EVE, but I hit that point far later into the game because you could do far more in the game. DU is imho still limited. And while you can go for help to others, when I play DU I'm often tired, wanting to relax, having had a busy workday interacting with others. Asking others for help/trading on their schedule is something I want to avoid if possible in those circumstances. Spending additional $$$ on accounts was just way more efficient use of my 'free' time=money, but not everyone is in that position, heck, I've not always been in that position. Some people just don't want multiple characters. Will such people just burn out on DU and play something that is more relaxing and doesn't force them into a straight jacked?

 

I also think that gating the Schematics in DU behind massive amounts of quanta is artificially forcing players to continue the grind. Instead of creating additional game content that people can enjoy/grind...

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On 5/6/2022 at 7:51 PM, Cergorach said:

also think that gating the Schematics in DU behind massive amounts of quanta is artificially forcing players to continue the grind. Instead of creating additional game content that people can enjoy/grind...

 

Yes, I believe schematics should come from a game loop not just a quanta drop.

 

But you talk about how much quanta a factory cost, look at the price for a warp beacon schematic, then compare that to an entire warp beacon line without schematics; suspect you could buy then entire line and maybe even have change. Thus the issue, if no schematics then maki g big factories is so much easier for lots of people, not just the very focused industry ones. 

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Everyone can build a factory is no big deal. Because everyone can. Schematics may slow it little down but make no big difference in a big picture.

Everyone ban buy MUs also no big deal. That is how free market works.

 

(Everyone) To be able to build mega factory - So what. 

Few weeks later....

So now you have your mega factory. What you gonna do with it.

It will not magically start producing all items in a game, not at all. It just sits there doing nothing even when you have all precious schematics installed.

 

How you gonna acquire raw materials, ores. For a big factory you need multiple alts to run enough MUs just for T1 ores, then you need to haul it to your base. Make sure you do not run out of materials or you will produce nothing.

Then you need to go to outer planets warping and running more alts to maintain T2-T5 MUs or to go to pvp asteroids to mine.

Now you also need to establish Alien core operations for collecting plasma to be able to manufacture items which need it.

 

At this point you need a lot of quanta every week to be able run yr MUs tile taxes to supply your factory.

Or if you don't run MUs you need even more quanta to buy ore yo need.

 

Then you have your out-containers full of stuff. You need to sell it fast to make profit - to cower yr territory taxes, fuel, warp cells, losses at pvp space and other costs running your mega factory. Because you are competing in raw materials and mass production markets it is not easy. Margins there are low and will always be.

You need to haul yr stuff to market and create sell orders. You need to calculate the right price for them, and be aware of competition, adjusting you prices so that your stuff sells and you still make profit. It is possible but you need to know know how to do it. No schemas or talent points to help you on how to compete in free markets.

 

Artificially limiting amount of players able to compete with you when selling raw materials or mass produced items does not belong to free markets.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

 

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1 hour ago, kulkija said:

Everyone can build a factory is no big deal. Because everyone can. Schematics may slow it little down but make no big difference in a big picture.

Everyone ban buy MUs also no big deal. That is how free market works.

 

(Everyone) To be able to build mega factory - So what. 

Few weeks later....

So now you have your mega factory. What you gonna do with it.

It will not magically start producing all items in a game, not at all. It just sits there doing nothing even when you have all precious schematics installed.

 

How you gonna acquire raw materials, ores. For a big factory you need multiple alts to run enough MUs just for T1 ores, then you need to haul it to your base. Make sure you do not run out of materials or you will produce nothing.

Then you need to go to outer planets warping and running more alts to maintain T2-T5 MUs or to go to pvp asteroids to mine.

Now you also need to establish Alien core operations for collecting plasma to be able to manufacture items which need it.

 

At this point you need a lot of quanta every week to be able run yr MUs tile taxes to supply your factory.

Or if you don't run MUs you need even more quanta to buy ore yo need.

 

Then you have your out-containers full of stuff. You need to sell it fast to make profit - to cower yr territory taxes, fuel, warp cells, losses at pvp space and other costs running your mega factory. Because you are competing in raw materials and mass production markets it is not easy. Margins there are low and will always be.

You need to haul yr stuff to market and create sell orders. You need to calculate the right price for them, and be aware of competition, adjusting you prices so that your stuff sells and you still make profit. It is possible but you need to know know how to do it. No schemas or talent points to help you on how to compete in free markets.

 

Artificially limiting amount of players able to compete with you when selling raw materials or mass produced items does not belong to free markets.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

 

Or you can simply hold alot money and resources from the early days mechanics and exploits, and no care about the new game mechanics why you are rich. But hell you can trow some money to new players to "help hims" and argue a no wipe helps new players why rich veteran ones can help hims.

 

Who cares new players cant enter in the economy loop, why the wales control the small margins, why they have enought cash flow to inmovilize alot capital and manipulate the prices.

 

Imagine a world , were mega factories non exist, and each player"company" can produce a few kind of products, with limited resources, and controled by the offert and demand, this world is so similar to our real world, were the biggest company of the world non produce all the products of the world for sure.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Sycopata said:

Or you can simply hold alot money and resources from the early days mechanics and exploits, and no care about the new game mechanics why you are rich. But hell you can trow some money to new players to "help hims" and argue a no wipe helps new players why rich veteran ones can help hims.

 

Who cares new players cant enter in the economy loop, why the wales control the small margins, why they have enought cash flow to inmovilize alot capital and manipulate the prices.

 

Imagine a world , were mega factories non exist, and each player"company" can produce a few kind of products, with limited resources, and controled by the offert and demand, this world is so similar to our real world, were the biggest company of the world non produce all the products of the world for sure.

 

 

 

New players can enter economy loop, and make profit. They just have to be smart.

It will not be easy, but isn't it what everybody wants. Game not be too easy.

 

Whales will always be there and veterans are already here. 

After final wipe + 1 year, situation for new player will be more and more "uneven" as it is now.

 

If someone wants challenge for mining, I suggest starting to harvest and sell plasma.

- pretty high buy prices and some challenge on harvesting too.

- no flood on markets

 

Or one could specialize producing those elements which need plasma.

 

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