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What’s the point of the ideas forum...


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... other than just to give players an outlet for their frustration?

 

does NQ ever read it? I gave it a cursory look through for the first time ever just now but failed to see any indication of NQ presence in that thread. 
 

what is the point on an ideas thread that nobody reads?
 

If you go to the FDEV forums (elite dangerous’ developers), any thread with “official” interaction -even a single post- has a little mark next to it.

 

im just wondering, is that forum taken seriously and has it a serious purpose or is it the place where good (and bad) ideas go to die and is just a filter to remove “blue skies” and “wishful thinking” posts from this thread?

 

 

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Its one of my greatest and longterm points of... can't find good word in english, let's say, severe disappointment over NQ. Posting of ideas on forum as common pleb is 99.999% just waste of time (Idea box section with thousands of posts is total mockery in context). Promised during KS "work with communinity" not happened.

 

So far only real interaction possible with NQ:

 

1) Mass rioting. Idea here not to influence NQ high-level congnitive mechanisms, but just make them so uncomfortable, that they can't just wait out (like they GLADLY do with minor shit). Usualy its end up with shitty solutions, but at least something. Reaction on irritation.

 

2) Having accesss to "kings ear", well, at least to someone of some importance in NQ. If you worked your way there, being succusseful simp or just nice useful and diplomatic (like zipped you mouth to tell only good things) guy, you can start your influence game, lobbying your shit to extent that is possible inside NQ usual disfunctionality (so absolutly no results garanteed).

 

 

 

 

 

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I bet they do read, and sometimes even understand and agree. 

 

But they have more information than us. 

They know how much budget they have. 

They know how much a change, simple in our eyes costs. 

 

Here is an example of how things could be happening behind closed doors:

We suggest "directional voice chat" 

They read and ask some programmer to spend 4 hours investigating if its doable. 

The programmer comes to the conclusion that:

A new server infrastructure is needed.

A 3rd party license is needed, per user based. 

The engine would need a new core variable to be made available to the new api. 

The new sound api would have to be implemented. 

 

Then they think:

We dont have the budgets for a new server or the licenses...

Changing the code would increase the chance for bugs. 

If we do any mistake, and the sound quality is not near perfect, it will just spawn 2 new topics and 1 new youtube video every week saying we failed. 

 

They decide not to implement it now. 

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In the 90s/00s when forums mattered the ideas forums was a great place to see what a game was missing before spending several days to attempt the download.  Essentially was the quickest place to know status of PvP based on who was crying, the type of endgame based on who was crying, and similar.  So IMO idea forums never existed for the devs, and instead existed as a barometer to judge the game.

 

though they’re extra cursed for this game since.  Considering they made the “idea reddit” for upvoting/downvoting ideas, just to implement their least popular first wave idea of schematics.  Likewise the devs have spent massive amount of time cozying up to streamers with their early promotion attempts, so their bandwidth for feedback was massively taken up there.  Not to mention they’re stuck spending all their time on base infrastructure/bug management, to make the topic matter even less.

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3 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

I bet they do read, and sometimes even understand and agree. 

 

But they have more information than us. 

They know how much budget they have. 

They know how much a change, simple in our eyes costs. 

 

 

So why do they then keep doing the same type of mistakes? Learning from past mistakes and improving is a fundamental skill that any dev team should be very aware off.

 

Here is the typical pattern on how NQ 'interacts' with the community.

 

---

NQ: We are going to do A.

 

Community: That will cause problems with B, and C and D,

 

NQ: No response..

 

Community: Lots of speculations and frustration because there is no response.

 

NQ: Releases original feature patch with no regard to community feedback

 

Community: Generates lots of feedback, mostly about the predicted problems that are now turned into reality

 

NQ: Silence...

 

Community: Problems are now so bad that people are starting to riot.

 

NQ: "Don't worry guys, we know there is a problem and we are looking into this."

 

NQ: Long silence, while community continues to riot and point out ways to avoid said problems

 

NQ: Release some quick and dirty patch that half solves the problem, and causes unplanned collateral damage

 

Community: Continues to point out problems with patch and quick-fix, and how they could have been avoided

 

NQ: Very long silence before announcing next feature, and everything starts over again..

---

 

So if people are wondering about the current state of the game and the bad mood in forums, it is because this release cycle accumulates lots of bugs and fundamental game issues over time and at the same time manages to alienate the community.

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4 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

So why do they then keep doing the same type of mistakes? Learning from past mistakes and improving is a fundamental skill that any dev team should be very aware off.

Because of 10 ppl complain in 10 different ways and present 10 different solutions only 1 or 2 will be right while the other 8 will be saying BS. 

And NQ has no way to filter in advanced the 8 BS. 

 

I have been here, for years, presenting my solutions for several problems i see. Every time i do it, someone replies saying that my solution will be bad of the game. How is NQ supposed to decide what feedback to get? Mine or the guy saying mine sucks? 

 

I have been saying for years now that what they need is professionals that actually understand what makes games sell and what keeps players playing.

Instead of trying to make sense of this jungle of feedback. 

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That's the job of professional community managers, filter the forum posts into a manageable list and present to the devs. And then write back with comments from the devs so that there is some two-way communication, and the community feels that they are being listened to. But that never happened. Not even when this used to be a pre-alpha forum with the specific intent of providing feedback for the devs. And on top of that, one of their big selling points during the Kiskstarter was the promise of a totally transparent dev process that would engage the community along the way.

 

And you don't have to look very far for this. There is now a pretense of engaging the community with the blog specific feedback forum threads being done lately. But it is still very much a one way street, with no real engagement from NQ.

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I blame most of this game's feedback failure on pre alpha ppl and some alpha dudes. 

 

And yes nq did hear you allot. 

Surrogates were nerfed because pre alpha feedback. 

T4 and T5 npc trading was removed because of your pre alpha feed back. 

Tiers of industry and schematics were introduced because of pre alpha feedback. 

 

You know it as well as i do that a certain group of ppl. Not only pre alpha, some alpha org leaders were also there, had a "special" connection with the devs, during alpha en the beginning of beta. 

 

You know most radical changes that the game suffered were sponsored by that group.... 

 

You know that that group was given replies to their feedback. 

 

I wander if you were a part of that group. Because if you were, you are not in the moral position to complain about transparency of feedback... 

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2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

That's the job of professional community managers, filter the forum posts into a manageable list and present to the devs. And then write back with comments from the devs so that there is some two-way communication, and the community feels that they are being listened to. But that never happened. Not even when this used to be a pre-alpha forum with the specific intent of providing feedback for the devs. And on top of that, one of their big selling points during the Kiskstarter was the promise of a totally transparent dev process that would engage the community along the way.

 

And you don't have to look very far for this. There is now a pretense of engaging the community with the blog specific feedback forum threads being done lately. But it is still very much a one way street, with no real engagement from NQ.

 

100% Thats how its done professionaly. I see no evidence of that here with NQ. I maybe wrong and if so they need to be more open and transparant along with showing their customers they are listening and taking into consideration whats discussed in the forums.

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Feedback is supposedly a two way, iterative process...

Had NQ shown some proactivity they could have fostered the good will of their community...

 

They could have picked up common repeated themes that clog the forums day after day or at least reappear month after month and created a more focussed "discuss this" channel based upon those ideas.

The top post of each idea could contain a brief executive summary of the state of play.
If the idea is quashed or to be included then a decisive final update of the first post should be written... 

 

That way energy could be focused on constructive criticism of salient points rather than thousands of pie in the sky posts that never get looked at.

Moreover, they should have been more forthright with their refusals and rebuttals.... 

"That is technically challenging because..."

"No, we won't be considering that because..."

 

rather than pointlessly pandering to people's egos "That's a very good idea... " or "we may look at that in the future" or "It's very far down the road..."  etc...
From a business perspective, that's a major NOPE. It fosters false hope and causes more energy to be put into shite that will never fly.

 

Both JC and Chris Roberts suffered greatly from this....

 

.. and look what happened to Star Citizen until around 2020 when Chris Roberts finally had his mouth taped shut by someone on the team (rumour has it it was Erin, his more down to earth and pragmatic brother)... and finally, SC staff can knuckle down and work on the meat and veg rather than pandering to a top level exec who has a little too much imagination and not enough self control.

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And whenever you get a response, it is one of these five. Maybe time to start a bingo.

We can not just snap a finger and the bug is fixed (within 8 months).
It does not make sense to fix a system that has an overhaul upcoming (for the last 8 months)
We cannot comment on it or the community will expect that feature and be angry when we don’t implement it (even if the community just asks how something is currently intended)
We read everything on the forums, but it would take too long to respond. Trust us, we hear you(we just don’t act like we do).
We already have a plan (but dont tell you because reasons and just implement it first and check your response later).

It seems the CM have very very strict guidelines regarding what they are allowed to say, stricter than I have seen for other games.

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11 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

I wander if you were a part of that group. Because if you were, you are not in the moral position to complain about transparency of feedback... 

Nope, never was.

But I have heard from people who where, that the group was mostly composed of YES people and even then NQ didn't particularly listen very well to that group either, especially if the feedback was negative.

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On 5/9/2021 at 10:40 AM, joaocordeiro said:

But they have more information than us. 

They know how much budget they have. 

They know how much a change, simple in our eyes costs. 

 

Sure, well at least I hope they do.

Not he point though. The point is that one would expect NQ to engage with the community, certainly in a forum section specifically set up for us to voice ideas. But NQ has no time for us in this regard and still has no actual grasp on the concept of basic communication which is not a filler if there is some time to spare, but a vital part of maintaining and building loyalty and trust in the process, the ability of the team to plan and take feedback on board and generally, keep the project visible and active.

 

NQ thinks communication is shoe-horning in some dev blogs around a patch mostly and is pretty much clueless about how their current attitude and strategy is actually harming the game. And I do not think it's the CMs delivering the communication, IMO it is the management behind them not having the skillset to actually support a CM team and fight for the value of a good team with a good interaction towards the community internally. I am pretty sure it is why we lost one of the CMs who did actually care enough to try and push the boundaries (but was yanked back and then left).

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23 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

And I do not think it's the CMs delivering the communication, IMO it is the management behind them not having the skillset to actually support a CM team and fight for the value of a good team with a good interaction towards the community internally

Thats, IMO, very false.... 

 

If i start a topic saying "i think the star should be blue" 

How will the CM be in trouble for asking "why you think that?" 

Or "you got some points there, i will transmit the to the team" 

 

And also any CM has a choice, do their job, in the best way possible to not get fired, but risking it.

Or dont do their job and become a forum moderator and a English text writer/reviewer for the management. 

 

Does this community seams managed? 

Who had the responsibility to manage it? 

 

Its like the call center girl saying "im just following procedure". 

NO. Anyone working for a company IS the company and until they quit or get fired they are responsible for every second they choose not to act. 

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I'm not blaming the current CMs for anything, I am blaming NQ for having abysmal community engagement and interaction.

 

Problem here is that the CM team is just doing what they are told to do and sticking with company policy. It is their choice to live with it and accept he job as-is, sure.

 

This is not about "I want blue stars". This is about members of the community spending time and effort (sometimes a lot of it) to bring suggestions and ideas to the table that would provide solutions and options to enhance and/or improve the game. And NQ then just ignoring these efforts entirely and proving it by running around and doing what the general consensus here tells them would not be a good plan.
 

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I do blame the current CM for the current and still imperfect managment of this community. 

 

IMO the CM should give some feedback to our comunication. That feedback does not have to be agreeing with our comunication. 

And all of our comunication (with in reason) should have some kind of feedback. Even if it is about the star being blue. 

 

What i feel like has been happening for a while is that some ppl had a special connection with NQ, unlike most of us, and are now being ignored.

Maybe its all about the discord change. 

Maybe no one is replying to those "complaining" emails... 

 

But from my perspective (someone that only used the forum for feedback):

NQ has been refusing to comment on any if our topics for 2-3 years. 

And lately have been improving. 

 

So what ever recent change, for the worse, you see, it did not affect this forum. 

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18 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

I blame most of this game's feedback failure on pre alpha ppl and some alpha dudes. 

 

And yes nq did hear you allot. 

Surrogates were nerfed because pre alpha feedback. 

T4 and T5 npc trading was removed because of your pre alpha feed back. 

Tiers of industry and schematics were introduced because of pre alpha feedback. 

 

Ill give you surrogates, but there was a middle ground between "a tourist button" and a teleporter that NQ basically ignored. 

 

T4 and T5 trading was broken and everyone knows that. The mistake was letting it go to Beta with it still in place. 

 

If you can go back through the alpha forums and find someone asking for something as harsh as schematics Id be suprised. Schematics were a choice entirely driven by JC/NQ. Pre-schematic beta was the best time to be an industrialist. 

 

 

In general I don't blame the CMs because both Naerais and Naunet before her departure actually made attempts to engage with the community. Then they just fell off the map outside of a few organized pushes. NQ clearly excercises a lot of control over their CMs which leads to bad community interaction. I couldn't imagine trying to convince a CM to come on PvP roundtable podcast now. 

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36 minutes ago, Noddles said:

T4 and T5 trading was broken and everyone knows that. The mistake was letting it go to Beta with it still in place. 

In my opinion what was broken is the the ore being so damn common. 

And it has to be because there is no ore respawing... 

 

 

But my comment was not to defend or offend the bot orders change. It is to show how. NQ was taking player feedback into account. And we can all say player feedback was responsible for that change. 

We can also say that player feedback was also responsible for the attempt to fix the huge quanta it generated by capping at 50m quanta. 

 

So its very unfair to say NQ does not take feedback into account.. 

 

 

About schematics.... Yes, its because of player feedback. Specifically feedback like "There is no specialization on industries, every body can craft anything". 

And we all remember this kind of feedback all ovef the place. 

Players may not have specifically asked for that solution. But that solution was implemented in reply for that constant feedback. 

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Instead of working on the game at that time, they built questionable things like surrogate stations that nobody asked for. They all wanted the game that was advertised at the time.

 

Well, here we are.

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7 hours ago, SirJohn85 said:

Instead of working on the game at that time, they built questionable things like surrogate stations that nobody asked for. They all wanted the game that was advertised at the time.

 

Well, here we are.


when I heard they were introducing surrogate wives... errr... I mean terminals:

10.+WTF+Meme.jpg
 

like, seriously where did that come from?

there were thousands of posts on these forums already, but I don’t remember even reading one that said, “wouldn’t it be super cool if we could nip to a VR terminal and beam a useless, emasculated proxy of ourself to another location.”

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56 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

but I don’t remember even reading one that said, “wouldn’t it be super cool if we could nip to a VR terminal and beam a useless, emasculated proxy of ourself to another location.”

There was allot of topics asking for "avatar fast travel" 

Surrogate were their interpretation of what fast travel could be. 

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after so many "we told you so"  moments we have in alpha and through whatever this is now,

the main point of ideas forum is for us to have means to emulate the genius loci we had gradually lost over the course of last year.

 

a true cynic might insinuate it to be the means to bide time till that juicy 1.8 trillion wad of taxpayer's money from post covid EU rebuild fun washes over private and public sector alike?

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